Magazine modifications

[bierman]

I was at my doctors office today and we were talking guns. My doc is a shooter and has been competing in IDPA for a while and has joined USPSA recently. He was showing me his M&P 40 in his office (gotta love a Doctor that brings his competion rig to work with him ) and his modification to the baseplates on the S&W factory mags. He had ground the front, rounded area down, making the baseplates more squared off and shorter. Since he is planning on shooting Production with this rig, I told him I was not sure if the magazine baseplates would be PD legal since it is an external modification. I am by no means an expert, so I thought I would come here for a little clarification. I already used the search feature, to no avail, as well as perusing the rulebook and the 2008 draft rules, again with no results. Any help would be appreciated as I would hate to see him get bumped to Open because of his baseplates.

[Jaxshooter]

Not legal in Production.

[jobob]

I don't see how it's not legal. It isn't a modification to the gun itself. I suppose getting the base plates scuffed up from dropping them in the gravel 100 times would be considered an illegal modification.

[sargenv]

This is one I'd submit to John Amidon..

[BSeevers]

I don't see how it's not legal. It isn't a modification to the gun itself. I suppose getting the base plates scuffed up from dropping them in the gravel 100 times would be considered an illegal modification.

I would check with John A but we have a local shooter that dryfired reloads so much last year that a major match ruled that his mag well was modified and he had to buy a new Glock.

[Carlos]

Dunno if this is of any help, but:

-any part from a production legal gun can be swapped out for a part on another production legal model - ie using the extended controls form a Glock 34 on a Glock 19 or 17.

-I use the 16 round CZ-75 mags in my CZ SP-01 in place of the stock 19 round mags.

-I also replace the stock magazine base plates with the rubber ones from a different production legal CZ (believe these are also a factory option for the SP-01 so again allowed).

Could your friend find replacement base pads from another model of M&P that accoplishe the same thing without being modified? I believe he can add crip tape too if that helps.

[LPatterson]

It truely is a question for John but the ruling on magazines (US Apendix D9 item 20) is no weighted attachments. It was suggested that I remove the rubber Pachmayr pads as it could be considered a weighted attachment.

[Nik Habicht]

I asked John about grip tape on magazine basepads while going through the CRO course under his tutelage. He cited the language in:

21.1 No weighted attachments allowed to magazine.

and interpreted that to mean anything that is primarily designed to add a significant enough amount of weight to make mags fall faster. He considered grip tape to be legal, because it didn't add a significant amount of weight, and because it's primary purpose wasn't to add weight, but to assist in not bobbling reloads.....

[SmittyFL]

I'll also be interested in the answer to this one. I don't shoot much production but do use a M&P when I do and the mag design is the weak point for sure. There is no purpose other than aesthetic to the base pad design. Whoever came up with that is an idiot and should be kicked in the shin.

Hopefully we can grind them flush or S&W will come out with a 'shooter' version of their mags.

[PaulW]

Smitty...I already ground mine down for that same reason. A local production shooter said it was illegal...but who knows for sure. I guess you can buy the compact M&P basepads from S&W and be good to go. Seems a little silly to me.

[Three Glock Mike]

He considered grip tape to be legal, because it didn't add a significant amount of weight, and because it's primary purpose wasn't to add weight, but to assist in not bobbling reloads.....

I'm kind of surprised by this, as he moved a shooter on our squad from Production to Open at the Nats last year because he had grip tape on his slide...Grip tape is supposed to be for the Grips only...

[jobob]

"I would check with John A but we have a local shooter that dryfired reloads so much last year that a major match ruled that his mag well was modified and he had to buy a new Glock."

That is just ridiculous! Normal wear is considered an illegal modification?!

These Production rules, and interpretation thereof, are getting a little (no, a lot) silly! I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but sometimes it looks like someone is trying to choke Production to where no one wants to shoot it anymore, and could be eliminated. These are what I use on the base plates of my Glock Production magazines:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/Pro...tle=MAG+BUMPERS

IDPA legal, but would it put me in Open? I've never had them questioned, even at major matches. They are to protect the mags when dropped on the ground. They weigh more than air, so I suppose they add weight, but not enough to be noticeable.

I don't know. I just may give up Production. It's not worth the hassle.

[Nik Habicht]

He considered grip tape to be legal, because it didn't add a significant amount of weight, and because it's primary purpose wasn't to add weight, but to assist in not bobbling reloads.....

I'm kind of surprised by this, as he moved a shooter on our squad from Production to Open at the Nats last year because he had grip tape on his slide...Grip tape is supposed to be for the Grips only...

The rules don't say that specifically ---- they do mention a number of things that may be modified, and grip tape on the slide wasn't on the list. (As much as I sympathize with the shooter in question, whom I consider a friend.) The rules do specifically address only one thing vis-a-vis magazines, prohibiting weighted attachments......

[HoMiE]

It's been posted and ruled on before, the jentra rubber pads are not legal in Production. Basically, the gun and magazines most retain the OFM design. Now if S&W comes out with a better base pad design for M&P mags, I am sure you could change base pad. Until then, you can't take out the dremmel and go to work on them.

[bierman]

Ok, I will admit ignorance here...how does one submit a question to John A? I have never done so.

I also have an M&P and I really don't like the basepads, but I had never thought to modify them myself. His modification makes them look like Glock basepads somewhat. When he showed it to me it took me a few seconds to realize what he had done. First thing I told him was "I don't think those are going to be legal in Production, Doc." His first response was "But I didn't modify the gun, just the magazines." He does not frequent this forum so I told him I would ask for him. If they are legal (which I am pretty sure they are not) mine will be getting a chop job as well.

[HoMiE]

Ok, I will admit ignorance here...how does one submit a question to John A? I have never done so.

Just email nroi@uspsa.org

Edited August 16, 2007 by HoMiE

[bierman]

Thanks. Email sent. I will post a response when I get one.

Edited August 16, 2007 by bierman

[jobob]

Why would the Jentra base pads not be legal? The rules allow long magazines, and only prohibit weighted attachment. Jentra base pads are not weighted and do nothing to enhance anything about the gun, only to protect the magazines. When was it ruled on?

[HoMiE]

Why would the Jentra base pads not be legal? The rules allow long magazines, and only prohibit weighted attachment. Jentra base pads are not weighted and do nothing to enhance anything about the gun, only to protect the magazines. When was it ruled on?

The rules say no magazine lenght restriction, but the magazine must be the original type for that gun. You can't run a G18 33-rounder in a G17 or G34.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...;hl=base%20pads

It is not an original part, it does add weight (however little), so it would be illegal in Production division.

Edited August 16, 2007 by HoMiE

[Chuck Anderson]

I sent the question, as well as a couple others to clarify to John Amidon. I'll let you know when I hear back.

[racerba]

...but the magazine must be the original type for that gun...

Where does it say that?

[GeorgeInNePa]

Why would the Jentra base pads not be legal? The rules allow long magazines, and only prohibit weighted attachment. Jentra base pads are not weighted and do nothing to enhance anything about the gun, only to protect the magazines. When was it ruled on?

The rules say no magazine lenght restriction, but the magazine must be the original type for that gun. You can't run a G18 33-rounder in a G17 or G34.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...;hl=base%20pads

It is not an original part, it does add weight (however little), so it would be illegal in Production division.

Actually you can. You can use G17 mags for your G19 if you want to and G18 mags if that's what floats your boat. You can use G34 parts in your G17, Right? The rules say no length restrictions.

[HoMiE]

I can't find the post right now, but it has been ruled on before. Magazines must be of the same dimensions as the original.

[Nik Habicht]

I can't find the post right now, but it has been ruled on before. Magazines must be of the same dimensions as the original.

That's an IPSC Production interpretation --- not a USPSA Production ruling as far as I know.....

[SLM]

So, dumb question... If the rubber base pads are illegal is the duct tape I put on the bottom of my mags to protect them when they hit the concrete/dirt/rocks also illegal? I've been using two layers of duct tape and a layer of cloth tape and they still get beat up somewhat. I'm sure it adds a little weight but it can't be more than a gram or so. I'm going to the Ohio Sectional and do not want bumped over a couple layers of tape!