Magazine modifications

[racerba]

I can't find the post right now, but it has been ruled on before. Magazines must be of the same dimensions as the original.

That's an IPSC Production interpretation --- not a USPSA Production ruling as far as I know.....

Even Vince Pinto says that you can use the 33 rounders in USPSA. I can't find that post or thread yet either.

So, dumb question... If the rubber base pads are illegal is the duct tape I put on the bottom of my mags to protect them when they hit the concrete/dirt/rocks also illegal? I've been using two layers of duct tape and a layer of cloth tape and they still get beat up somewhat. I'm sure it adds a little weight but it can't be more than a gram or so. I'm going to the Ohio Sectional and do not want bumped over a couple layers of tape!

If it's one layer, I'd say OK - but for 3 layers, I don't think it's legal.

Edited August 17, 2007 by racerba

[eerw]

best way is to contact Amidon for a clarrification and keep the email in your bag..

if the part is OEM/OFM then you are probably OK..if it is third party/aftermarket you better check on its legality.

[Mo Hepworth]

if you are doing minor detailing to (ie: removing left over pieces of plastic) or trimming a follower that is either mishaped, or has excessive plastic on it, wouldn't that just be minor detailing? I am not adding anything to the mag or mag bottoms, in fact the opposite. I am thinking that excessive high spots on a magazine which cause the mags to not drop free, or smoothing a follower that does not run the length smoothly due to poor QC would be within' the realm of allowable "minor detailing"

[Nik Habicht]

So, dumb question... If the rubber base pads are illegal is the duct tape I put on the bottom of my mags to protect them when they hit the concrete/dirt/rocks also illegal? I've been using two layers of duct tape and a layer of cloth tape and they still get beat up somewhat. I'm sure it adds a little weight but it can't be more than a gram or so. I'm going to the Ohio Sectional and do not want bumped over a couple layers of tape!

Have a frank conversation with the RM when you arrive --- and mention that Amidon ruled grip tape acceptable, because it's not a weighted attachment, even though it has some weight.....

[Bigbadaboom]

You can order the flat basepads for the M&P compact from S&W and put them on your full size mags. I just did it and it works great.

I would say that grinding the nose off of the M&P basepads would be illegal in Production division because back when the whole "Finish" issue was going on I asked John A about it before they actually ruled and I was told that "The best way to look at Production rules is that if it doesn't state specificly that it is allowed then it's not".

[HoMiE]

...snip... "The best way to look at Production rules is that if it doesn't state specificly that it is allowed then it's not".

That is what I go by and a good way to be safe shooting in Production.

[jobob]

But, the rules are specific in saying that there is no maximum magazine length requirement, yet the 'powers that be' rule that anything which adds to the length is illegal because it weighs more than air. There is a weight requirement that the gun not weigh more than 2 oz. over factory spec. Is that with, or without, magazine inserted? It would seem like that rule would cover any magazine modifications.

It could also be resolved by using the box. If the gun with mag inserted won't fit in the box, then it's Open for you, laddy. If my Glock with Jentra pads fits in the box, then I'd be ok. We need something anyone can read and go to a match and feel confident that they are within the rules. The way it is now, it leaves so much up the the interpretation of match officials, and John Amidon, that you're taking your chances every time shoot Production. You could be caught in the 'gotcha' game.

[bierman]

Just checked my email and this is the official word from John Amidon:

Hi Keith,

It would be an external modification to an original factory produced part and therefore not allowed.

John Amidon

VP USPSA

Director NROI

I kinda thought this would be the case.

[HoMiE]

But, the rules are specific in saying that there is no maximum magazine length requirement, yet the 'powers that be' rule that anything which adds to the length is illegal because it weighs more than air. There is a weight requirement that the gun not weigh more than 2 oz. over factory spec. Is that with, or without, magazine inserted? It would seem like that rule would cover any magazine modifications.

It could also be resolved by using the box. If the gun with mag inserted won't fit in the box, then it's Open for you, laddy. If my Glock with Jentra pads fits in the box, then I'd be ok. We need something anyone can read and go to a match and feel confident that they are within the rules. The way it is now, it leaves so much up the the interpretation of match officials, and John Amidon, that you're taking your chances every time shoot Production. You could be caught in the 'gotcha' game.

The 2 oz. over factory spec is to limit people from getting crazy with tungsten guide rods or hiding wight inside the gun. Lighten your trigger, tune the internals for "enhanced reliability", change the sights, and add grip tape on grip if you want. basically that's all you can do to a production gun. There is no box for USPSA, but there is for IPSC. At the larger area match, they don't really tear down your equipment and break out the weight scale, just just make sure your holster and mag pouches are in the correct position. I have never cracked a glock base pad and they are so cheap that I just buy extra base pads if they get so scratched up beyond useable function. I see no need to spend more money and glue on a rubber base pad.

If your haven't done anything to your gun and want to shoot production, you would be safe to come out and shoot with no worries, just load 10 rounds in your mag and shoot.

[Chuck Anderson]

Just FYI, there is no box at all for Production, IPSC or USPSA. And at the larger IPSC events they do check your gun, including trigger pull tests. They don't in USPSA because there is no limit. At most of the larger matches the RO's will check for illegal parts, and the gun is looked over at the Chrono.

[RIIID]

The new rule book now allows checkering and stippling of the grip area, but don't change the contour.

Just an opinion HUGE mistake.

Rich

[jobob]

Check new '08 rule book. We now have a Production box.

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/online_att...andgunRules.pdf

[Nik Habicht]

Check new '08 rule book. We now have a Production box.

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/online_att...andgunRules.pdf

Not really --- we have a list, and one of the requirements to get a gun on the list, is that it must fit the box. You shouldn't encounter the box at matches --- at least that's how my AD explained it when I asked about it six months ago....

[ChrisStock]

I too shoot an M&P, but in .40, not 9MM, so run with Limited and L-10. Agreed, the shoddy factory S&W basepads used to get in the way, but I replaced them with the Arredondo +5 pads. Picked up 5 extra rounds, and streamlined the mag base in one swoop. SmittyFL saw mine when I arrived for a test run with them last week after work. Solid and smooth... I wish S&W would pay more attention to competition shooters, and our needs and wants.

The only mags I see when looking at S&W's site that do not have fat overmolded basepads, are the compact mags, and they do have a finger rest.

I still don't have a pistol that I will run in production classifiers yet, so it's not such a big issue yet, but it won't be an M&P, but one of the CZ variants, or my house gun, the FNP9.

Chris

[BSeevers]

Production division rules are simple.

You may do trigger, internal work, sights, grip tape.

You MAY NOT do anything else.

Get John A for clarification on a grey area

For those who think its the division to push the equipment edge. Its not. That's why its even around. People blamed 3K raceguns as to why they couldn't shoot USPSA so we created Production. I like to call it Stock Division.

If you want to get mod happy come on into Limited, L10 or Open. That's 3 divisions you can play in so there's plenty of room.

PS I know its natural to try to push equipment to the limit of the rules. I just feel that when you have a bad feeling about Production perhaps Limited calls.

Edited August 22, 2007 by BSeevers

[SLM]

I'm leaving tomorrow for the OH Sectional so I went ahead and e-mailed John Amidon about adding tape/grip tape to mags for production. Nothing is allowed, no tape, no grip tape. Here's the message string:

ME:

Hi.

>

> I've been following a thread on the Brian Enos forum and the

topic of

> magazine modification has come up and the "legalities" of some

mods such

> as rubber base pads, grinding, etc. It got me to thinking...

>

> I shoot production with a CZ 85 and have been putting duct tape and

> cloth tape on the bottoms of my mags to protect them when they

hit the

> concrete, dirt, gravel, etc. My usual protection is two or

three layers

> of duct tape and one layer of cloth tape. To be honest, they

are still

> taking a beating. Anyway, I'm headed to the Ohio Sectional

match in a

> couple days and want to know if my tape is legal. I've read that

> putting grip tape on them is legal so I'm guessing I'm "ok" but

anything

> adding weight is not legal. To be frank, I'm confused and want

to be

> sure I'm legal so I do not get bumped up to Open division or the

like

> due to some tape.

>

> Can you please clarify this for me?

>

> Thank you very much for you time on this.

>

> Ryan

HIM:

Hi Ryan,

Adding anything to the base pad of a magazine, is not allowed in Production division.

Regards,

John Amidon

VP USPSA

Director NROI

ME:

Thank you very much. So no grip tape either correct? Just making sure I'm totally clear on this before I leave tomorrow.

Ryan H.

HIM:

Correct.

Good luck at the match.

John Amidon

VP USPSA

Director NROI

Well there it is on that. Tape is out for production.

[proff]

I'm learning something every day. I got some M&P mags chromed to help prevent rusting. I may have missed a previous clarification but could someone tell me if they are production legal or not??

TP