Lefty; thumb blocking ejection port?

[RickB]

I have been chasing a failure-to-eject problem, for over a year. I had a few double-feeds and stovepipes, determined the extractor was limp, so replaced it. The gun had been all but trouble-free for about 5000-6000 rounds, prior. With the new extractor, I had no more failures to extract, but was still getting a stovepipe about every 100 rounds. I fiddled with the extractor tension, hook shape, hook travel, etc., and still the stovepipes. Another new extractor, and more tweaking, and the rate was down to about one in 300, but still driving me crazy. So, a friend lets me try his hat-cam, and I see a video of myself shooting an El Prez. On the first pass, it looks like the cases are coming out to 2:00, but after the reload, I see my strong (left) tumb is curved up, rather than resting down on my weak thumb. The video quality isn't very good, but it appears that the cases, on the second, thumb-up pass, are ejecting more vertically, and one even shoots out to 11:00; am I blocking the ejection port with my thumb, and the odd case is getting bounced back into the port? Any other lefties run into this? I have very long fingers, and in looking at some still photos from matches, I can see that thumb up where it would certainly get in the way. I am not aware of cases contacting my thumb when I'm shooting, but? I'm thinking all the extractor fiddling was just altering the ejection angle enough to vary how often a case got bounced back into the port, and that it isn't a mechanical problem at all.

[SA Friday]

What kind of gun and what caliber are you shooting?

Factory springs? What pound recoil spring and were any others changed?

What is your ammo? Factory or reload? What PF?

Is it always the first or last or second to last round of the mag or does it vary?

All pertinent questions to answer your inquiry.

[eric nielsen]

You may want to try curling your right thumb all the way down onto your right index finger. You might find this puts your right palm into the grip of the gun even better than straight thumbs.

2nd option might be a piece of grip tape along the right side of the frame, like Max shows in the "3GM" dvd. Do like he says, just feel contact there, use it as a reference point, not a *thumb rest [generic]*.

[RickB]

What kind of gun and what caliber are you shooting?

Factory springs? What pound recoil spring and were any others changed?

What is your ammo? Factory or reload? What PF?

Is it always the first or last or second to last round of the mag or does it vary?

All pertinent questions to answer your inquiry.

5" 1911, .45ACP

23# main, 14# recoil; same spring rates since day one.

200gr @ 850 reloads; bullets and powder have varied, but always 200gr and 170pf

No pattern, as to first, last, or other. The most recent was the first round after a slidelock reload. Changing mags has made no difference (I changed brands, nine months ago).

[RickB]

You may want to try curling your right thumb all the way down onto your right index finger. You might find this puts your right palm into the grip of the gun even better than straight thumbs.

2nd option might be a piece of grip tape along the right side of the frame, like Max shows in the "3GM" dvd. Do like he says, just feel contact there, use it as a reference point, not a *thumb rest [generic]*.

I have found myself curling my right thumb down, and have tried to "correct" it; I think the high thumb thing is an unwanted result of trying to keep my thumbs pointing forward, and overcompensating. Holding the right thumb down on the index finger feels more natural to me, so I probably shouldn't fight it.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[GmanCdp]

hey Rick..i shoot LH also and when i really got into shooting alot..i took every one of my 1911's and had the slide stop pin and had them cutoff flush with the frame so that my right thumb would not push it out just enough to catch the slide when it was coming back,causing a double feed,empty case almost out,next rnd coming up,had this happen 3 times in different matches till i saw it one time and caught it during practice.. i also use tape as an index to get a feel with my right thumb,as to where it should be along the frame/.also i had to trim the fire out of the lh side of the safety ,to keep the trigger finger from bumping it up and causing it to just baaaaaaerly engage it on the slide,which would slow down the slide and cause a stove pipe also..i put my right thumb right in front of the slide stop pin,and tilt the right wrist down, pretty hard, to put pressure on the strong hand around the frame,which will free up the trigger finger...then when shooting upclose and hosing..i'll use my thumb as an index reference...

Edited August 7, 2007 by GmanCdp

[shred]

You will feel it if a case bounces off your thumb. BTDT

[SLM]

You will feel it if a case bounces off your thumb. BTDT

Another lefty chiming in. I don't feel cases bounce off my thumbs in a match but... In my quest to get the "correct" grip I get my right hand thumb so close to the ejection port that it gets covered in black residue and in my last match I blocked the port so bad that I had three failures to eject. This is shooting my CZ 85. My fingers aren't long enough to get in the way on a .45.

BTDT?? Don't know that one that I know of.

[cheers623]

Rick,

Chris Olka here, I have squadded with you a few times at Renton/Paul Bunyan/Marysville....Anyway, I shoot lefty and have REALLY BIG hands also. For the longest time I was having exactly the same problems with ejection. I also shoot straight thumbs and have an STI Edge. Well, after numerous malfs ONLY at matches I tried everything in the book, extractors, springs, powders, you name it. What I noticed was that when practicing at the range I never had problems but in a match when my grip was less than perfect I would get these problems. What I found was that the brass was banging off of my left thumb and occasionally getting trapped back in the gun during cycling. What I did was 2 things. I had the ejector face slightly angled to adjust the ejection pattern to be more towards 1 o'clock and less towards 2 or 3 o'clock AND slightly increase my powder charge so that even on the occasion when a piece of brass does hit my thumb it has enough juice to clear the ejection port anyway. I know this is less than ideal because I am shooting at 175-180 PF BUT, my gun functions much more reliably. Anytime I lower the PF on my loads I will start to encounter these malfs again so thats what I do. I hope that helps and see you at Area 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck

DVC

[RickB]

Thanks for the shared experiences. It sounds as if my problem is certainly not an isolated one. I'm going to try to consciously refine my grip when I draw, and see if the problem goes away. It may be that my shooting will also improve, as a result.

Edited August 14, 2007 by RickB

[Duane Thomas]

BTDT?? Don't know that one that I know of.

Been There Done That.

[Duane Thomas]

Rick,

Why not let someone who's right handed shoot the gun and see if it still happens? Considering how hot a casing is that's just coming out of the ejection port, I'm pretty darn sure you notice it hitting your thumb.

Why the 23-pound mainspring, BTW? I know that's factory standard, but in my experience a 17-pound mainspring not only has a positive effect on trigger pulls (i.e. it lightens them about half a pound versus a 23-pounder) but allows the gun to cycle more easily.

[JThompson]

Right hand here, but have noticed it when shooting smaller framed guns shooting weak handed. I have a bad wrist and have done this in the past because I refuse to quit shooting when it is bad.

JT

PS I noticed it a lot for with my PX4. I know it when I do it though as those 9s come out hard enough to hurt!

Watch the dragging the slide with your thumb too... I had that issue as well.

Edited August 15, 2007 by JThompson

[RickB]

Rick,

Why not let someone who's right handed shoot the gun and see if it still happens? Considering how hot a casing is that's just coming out of the ejection port, I'm pretty darn sure you notice it hitting your thumb.

Why the 23-pound mainspring, BTW? I know that's factory standard, but in my experience a 17-pound mainspring not only has a positive effect on trigger pulls (i.e. it lightens them about half a pound versus a 23-pounder) but allows the gun to cycle more easily.

I've found that adjusting the trigger pull weight at the sear spring is most effective, and doesn't have the same negative effect on unlocking and slide velocity that light mainsprings have.

I'm pretty-well convinced, from the posts here, and a discussion at the range, that brass deflecting off the thumb would indeed go unnoticed by the shooter. I'm not necessarily convinced that my ejection problems are exclusively the result of such a problem, though. Let's see how things go this weekend. If someone wants to supply 500 rounds of ammo for a test, I'll loan the gun. ;^)

[Duane Thomas]

I've found that adjusting the trigger pull weight at the sear spring is most effective, and doesn't have the same negative effect on unlocking and slide velocity that light mainsprings have.

What negative effects do you mean? I ask because I've just gone over the 30K mark with my own 1911 .45 with 17-pound mainspring without a single problem. Actually, I went to the 17-pound mainspring specifically because I wanted to change how the gun unlocks and its slide velocity. I find that with the 17-pound mainspring I have less felt recoil, and less muzzle flip, because it requires less energy to recock the hammer. Also, I want the gun cycling faster. If the gun cycles slowly, in my experience, I'll get a lot of what I call "subsidiary muzzle bounce" or SMB. My theory is this occurs because the gun cycles so slowly it's already coming down out of recoil as the slide drives forward to close, therefore that forward energy gets added to the gun's downward energy - if that makes any sense - and the gun vibrates like a turning fork, up and down, when it should just be settling right back into the same spot. Ergo, SMB. By contrast, if the gun cycles fast enough the slide closes as the gun's still on its way up, there's no excess energy added to the gun as it comes down, and it'll just settle right back in where it was before it went off. At least that's my theory, and it seems to work. And the gun cycles every time I pull the trigger because it requires less energy to make the gun work.

[HuskySig]

What negative effects do you mean? I ask because I've just gone over the 30K mark with my own 1911 .45 with 17-pound mainspring without a single problem. Actually, I went to the 17-pound mainspring specifically because I wanted to change how the gun unlocks and its slide velocity. I find that with the 17-pound mainspring I have less felt recoil, and less muzzle flip, because it requires less energy to recock the hammer. Also, I want the gun cycling faster. If the gun cycles slowly, in my experience, I'll get a lot of what I call "subsidiary muzzle bounce" or SMB. My theory is this occurs because the gun cycles so slowly it's already coming down out of recoil as the slide drives forward to close, therefore that forward energy gets added to the gun's downward energy - if that makes any sense - and the gun vibrates like a turning fork, up and down, when it should just be settling right back into the same spot. Ergo, SMB. By contrast, if the gun cycles fast enough the slide closes as the gun's still on its way up, there's no excess energy added to the gun as it comes down, and it'll just settle right back in where it was before it went off. At least that's my theory, and it seems to work. And the gun cycles every time I pull the trigger because it requires less energy to make the gun work.

Duane,

Are you posting while drunk or high again? A mainspring contributes to felt recoil, that's an interesting theory...

mattk

[shred]

FWIW, I feel it whenever cases hit my thumb.. they usually leave a black mark too.

[RickB]

I've found that adjusting the trigger pull weight at the sear spring is most effective, and doesn't have the same negative effect on unlocking and slide velocity that light mainsprings have.

What negative effects do you mean? I ask because I've just gone over the 30K mark with my own 1911 .45 with 17-pound mainspring without a single problem. Actually, I went to the 17-pound mainspring specifically because I wanted to change how the gun unlocks and its slide velocity. I find that with the 17-pound mainspring I have less felt recoil, and less muzzle flip, because it requires less energy to recock the hammer. Also, I want the gun cycling faster. If the gun cycles slowly, in my experience, I'll get a lot of what I call "subsidiary muzzle bounce" or SMB. My theory is this occurs because the gun cycles so slowly it's already coming down out of recoil as the slide drives forward to close, therefore that forward energy gets added to the gun's downward energy - if that makes any sense - and the gun vibrates like a turning fork, up and down, when it should just be settling right back into the same spot. Ergo, SMB. By contrast, if the gun cycles fast enough the slide closes as the gun's still on its way up, there's no excess energy added to the gun as it comes down, and it'll just settle right back in where it was before it went off. At least that's my theory, and it seems to work. And the gun cycles every time I pull the trigger because it requires less energy to make the gun work.

Everyone has a theory. My reasoning is more mechanical than sensory. The gun is held in battery mostly by the weight of the barrel and slide. Recocking the hammer also requires some energy, and using the standard mainspring, in conjunction with a firing pin stop of the original, pre-1916 shape, holds the gun longer in battery, theoretically improving accuracy - bullet has not left the barrel when the latter starts moving - and slowing the slide's rearward movement, allowing the use of a light(er) recoil spring, and so reducing muzzle flip. You think your muzzle flip is reduced because the slide is moving fast, and I think it's less because the slide is moving slowly. My theory is based mostly on experiments with a 10mm that left heavy firing pin drag marks on the primers. That gun had 23# main and 23# recoil springs. I changed the firing pin stop and installed a 25# main, and now, even with a 20# recoil spring, the firing pin strikes are nice and round.

The army asked that the firing pin stop be altered, to "make the slide easier to rack". I looked at an original circa 1912 part, and saw that the radius on the heel was much smaller than what's used today. A light went on. I don't want the slide to be easy to rack, I want it to resist unlocking. A sort of cult of the small-radius firing pin stop has formed on one of the 1911 forums, and I'm a charter member.

[shred]

The army asked that the firing pin stop be altered, to "make the slide easier to rack". I looked at an original circa 1912 part, and saw that the radius on the heel was much smaller than what's used today. A light went on. I don't want the slide to be easy to rack, I want it to resist unlocking. A sort of cult of the small-radius firing pin stop has formed on one of the 1911 forums, and I'm a charter member.

I used to use no-radius FP stops in the old 175 PF days on an open gun, but then one day Todd told me the top guys quit using them because they would cause the frame holes to oval out sooner... make sure you've got at least a little radius on there.

[EmanP]

By contrast, if the gun cycles fast enough the slide closes as the gun's still on its way up, there's no excess energy added to the gun as it comes down, and it'll just settle right back in where it was before it went off.

Unlocking the barrel early is definitely not a desirable action. And what you describe above is impossible in our physical universe.

[Duane Thomas]

Duane,

Are you posting while drunk or high again? A mainspring contributes to felt recoil, that's an interesting theory...

mattk

Actually I can't really take credit for it. It's an old piece of knowledge, and comes from the same concept that makes lighter-than-stock recoil springs so popular among competition shooters. The more energy is required to overcome the recoil spring as the slide rockets rearward, the more energy gets passed on to you, therefore the more felt recoil and muzzle flip you have. On a gun that has a hammer spring (i.e. mainspring) as well as a recoil spring (1911, SIG, CZ, etc.) the weight of the mainspring also comes into play. Like I said, this is old knowledge, I didn't come up with it myself.

Of course, then we get into just how important is it to you that a gun have "soft" recoil, which is what lowering the weight of the recoil spring and mainspring does. For a long time I was an adherent of the "heavy bullet/light recoil spring/soft recoil" school of thought. Then I realized that for me how the gun tracked in recoil, and what it did when it came down out of recoil, was more important than how "soft" the recoil might be. These days in my Glock 34 I've actually gone to a stock equivalent 17-pound recoil spring instead of the 13-pounder I used to run, specifically to get the gun cycling faster. In a 1911, on the other hand, I still like the 17-pound mainspring (stock is 23 pounds), also to get the gun cycling faster.

Whether a shooter likes a gun with "slow, pushy" recoil or "fast, snappy" recoil is very much an individual thing. But there's no doubt that recoil spring weight, and mainspring weight, do affect how a gun cycles, and feels, and tracks.

[Duane Thomas]

By contrast, if the gun cycles fast enough the slide closes as the gun's still on its way up, there's no excess energy added to the gun as it comes down, and it'll just settle right back in where it was before it went off.

Unlocking the barrel early is definitely not a desirable action. And what you describe above is impossible in our physical universe.

We're not talking about unlocking the barrel early. The bullet is long gone before the barrel unlocks whether you run a full-poundage recoil spring or drop it a few pounds. And what's physically impossible about firing a gun and having it come right back to the same spot? It's the predictable result of a well-set-up gun and decent technique.

[HuskySig]

The bullet is long gone before the barrel unlocks whether you run a full-poundage recoil spring or drop it a few pounds.

Are you sure?

Video link.

mattk

[Duane Thomas]

Yes. I didn't say the bullet was gone before the slide began to move, I said it was gone before the slide and barrel unlocked. On a locked breech firearm like the 1911, the barrel and slide are still locked together for a short distance as the slide travels to the rear. That's why it's called a "locked breech" instead of a "blowback" (in which the only things holding the action closed are the recoil spring and the inertia of the slide, the barrel does not move at all, being affixed to the frame, and thus the slide and barrel unlock as soon as the slide begins to move to the rear). On the 1911, SIG, Glock, etc. the rear of the barrel tilts downward as the slide begins to move to the rear, but the rear of the barrel hood and the breech face are still in contact, and the cartridge casing is still fully inside the chamber. By the time the barrel and slide have actually unlocked, thanks to the tilt barrel system, the bullet has left the bore and pressures have dropped to a safe level.

I'm not going to say the tilt barrel system is the only way to solve the problem; there's the Astra 600 route of building a blowback and holding the slide closed with an extremely heavy recoil spring, the Heckler & Koch gas-retarded blowback, the various rotary bolts, etc. but the tilt barrel system is by far the most popular approach to building an auto pistol that can fire a service cartridge (i.e. high pressure - for a handgun) and not have the casing explode as it begins to extract. If the slide and barrel were not locked together until the bullet was gone, with a service cartridge there would still be enough pressure inside the casing as it began to extract out of the chamber that, absent being surrounded by the steel chamber, the casing would rupture. That's why the blowback system, almost without exception, is used only for low-pressure pocket pistol cartridges.

Cool video.

[EmanP]

If the slide and barrel were not locked together until the bullet was gone, there would still be enough pressure inside the cartridge casing as it began to extract out of the chamber that, absent being surrounded by the steel chamber, the casing would rupture.

Another impossibility. A cartridge with enough pressure would not be capable of beginning to extract out of the chamber. The extractor would rip the rim off first before it would budge or just hop over it. Now if it was out of battery while firing, then it would 'rupture'. You also can't have the gun cycle fast enough so the slide closes as the gun's still on its way up. If it was closing, it would no longer be on the way up. It's physics. I think you may have misunderstood whom ever you overheard talking about this.