07 OPEN / L10 Nationals after-match reviews

[iweiny]

I didn't run into issues with 17, so no sour grapes on my part, there. Some of the things, like the life jacket, and such, maybe ought to be considered carefully before using them again, due to higher safety risk in using those sorts of props. And, I'd consider finding ways to design stages that didn't require the 180 to be canted to the side when putting two stages in a bay - it was possible for a competitor breaking the 180 to point a muzzle back into the crowd on some stages, and that's just not a comfortable thing...

I have what some might consider a stupid question... But why was stage 17 so bad?

What really upset me was my in-ability to perform despite having shot so much SHO lately. I thought the stage, although diffucult, was acceptable for USPSA. It forced you to think about something other than the shooting (While not presenting any safety issues.) I figure that is part of the challenge of this sport; to be able to shoot under pressure, in difficult situations. I guess I like "monkey motions" as it presents a challenge beyond the clock.

As for the 180 lines... I am convinced this is what got Lorrie. The more I think about it, and review the video, she was safe when compared to the backstop. I think we have a natural tendancy to view the 180 parallel to the backstop. Most ranges (read local matches) are like that. I am not trying to argue the call or place blame, however we all work hard to "program" in certain things and this likely caught some people.

One thing I would like to point out with the squad schedules. Our squad ended one day on stage 10. We had had a long day of "double stage per bay" stages and we were late getting down to stage 10. Although it was tough on our squad I would like to point out that the RO's were not too happy finishing at 6:30. I think we arived at 5 and had 2 reshoots and a DQ on that stage. So, my point is that it was not just the shooters but also the match staff who suffered this hardship. BTW they were very nice and understanding, kudos again to the RO's.

Ok, I wanted to limit my "bitching" but I do have to mention one thing about the match hotel. Did anyone notice that the elevator made a noise something like a timer? We had a room right across from the elevator and the first night I awoke at 3am thinking "who the hell is dry fireing at this hour"? I could have survived the construction if not for that "timer" going off all night long...

Anyway, despite my short comings in shooting ability, I did pretty good overall. Furthermore, and more importantly, Lorrie and I had a great time and thought the match was run well with very good stages. Personally, I am walking away with a number of things to work on so it must be a great success, right?

Thanks again to all the match staff, shooters, and vendors,

Ira

PS XRE did you see any Moose? Lorrie and I were looking all over for them. All we saw were bison, elk, a coyote, a pair of bald eagles, various other birds and small animals. I will try and post some pics when I get home, Lorrie and I are still on the road. It has been a great vacation!

[Loves2Shoot]

I have what some might consider a stupid question... But why was stage 17 so bad?

IMO, because NO ONE I talked to that shot it could hear the buzzer or see the lights when shooting AND they where giving one procedural per shot fired when it wasn't going off.

10% of the shooters zeroed it on procedurals, that should say enough.

[9supercomp]

Stage 17 was my best stage, I'm hard of hearing and I watch the targets not the light.

[SmittyFL]

I have what some might consider a stupid question... But why was stage 17 so bad?

Because it was stupid. Just like the life jacket thing was stupid....what the hell was the point of that? Pushing the thing off the table.....stupid. (why not just activate the target?) Throw the coin in the bucket....stupid. Pick up a bowling ball bag, carry it around and throw it on an activator?..?...stupid. Having one or even two stupid things like that in a match is cool; 4 or 5 of them is just too much. You walk away talking about all the dumb things you had to do instead of the shooting challenge. Which there didn't seem to be much of, a lot of partials but no distance to speak of. I'm not normally one to bitch about the prop tossing stuff; just when it takes over a match. All my opinion of course.

I hate to bad mouth a match that so many folks volunteered their time to put on, but it was the poorest Nationals I've been to by far. Everything from not enough port-a-johns or safe areas to optionless stage designs. They asked us to car pool without telling us there was a half mile between stages and another half mile between where you park and where you shoot. I don't know how long the lunch people were open, maybe it was just me but every time I went to get a drink or something to eat they were closed.

I don't know why they had to double up field courses in a single bay, it seemed like we passed 4 or 5 open bays on the drive to the other side of the range. That slowed things up and caused the weird 180 issues others have discussed.

However we had fun, were out shooting in great weather with great scenery. Probably just first Nationals growing pains I would imagine. The staff and RO's were great as always.

[XRe]

I have what some might consider a stupid question... But why was stage 17 so bad?

I wouldn't say it was "bad"... just "goofy"...

I guess I like "monkey motions" as it presents a challenge beyond the clock.

For the most part, this is a shooting sport. Monkey motions distract from the shooting. They're fair in that everyone must do them, and they do test your ability to cope with different things. But... over used or overly penal, they're just a PITA. I think that's what folks are bitching about, more than anything else...

As for the 180 lines... I am convinced this is what got Lorrie.

I've always found 180s that are not related to the berms to be awkward, and I'm very careful about where I point my muzzle on those stages, so... This wouldn't surprise me...

So, my point is that it was not just the shooters but also the match staff who suffered this hardship. BTW they were very nice and understanding, kudos again to the RO's.

Definitely so...

PS XRE did you see any Moose? Lorrie and I were looking all over for them. All we saw were bison, elk, a coyote, a pair of bald eagles, various other birds and small animals.

We saw two moose (meese??) - a male and a female. The female was to the east of the Lamar Valley on the road toward Cooke City and the north east entrance. The male was north of Cooke City on the Beartooth Highway. We saw plenty of bison and elk, two bald eagles, 4 black bear, one grizzly, yellow bellied marmots, chipmunks, ground squirrels, pronghorn, and mule deer. No coyotes or wolves, though. Lots and lots of critters

[LPatterson]

As a member of Big Sky Practical Shooting Club and the set-up crew I guess I may be a little sensitive to your complaints since the rest of the country is forming an opinion based on your views.

I have what some might consider a stupid question... But why was stage 17 so bad?

Because it was stupid. Just like the life jacket thing was stupid....what the hell was the point of that? Pushing the thing off the table.....stupid. (why not just activate the target?) Throw the coin in the bucket....stupid. Pick up a bowling ball bag, carry it around and throw it on an activator?..?...stupid. Having one or even two stupid things like that in a match is cool; 4 or 5 of them is just too much. You walk away talking about all the dumb things you had to do instead of the shooting challenge. Which there didn't seem to be much of, a lot of partials but no distance to speak of. I'm not normally one to bitch about the prop tossing stuff; just when it takes over a match. All my opinion of course.

Why were all these things stupid? Just because they forced to to do something other than hose. There were several life jackets so you could find a size you wanted & they didn't have to be buckled, it was part of the senerio theme that people seem to want. The bowling ball bag only required that you pick it up & throw it on the activator after about 2 steps. Robbie missed the bucket with the coin & ran after it & had a big laugh about it at the awards ceremony. So 4-5 stages out of 18 were prop stages & it takes over the match. When is distance a requirement for accurate shooting, or was it the 30 head shots on Block Heads, which with stages 17 & 18 the only ones with only one solution.

I hate to bad mouth a match that so many folks volunteered their time to put on, but it was the poorest Nationals I've been to by far. Everything from not enough port-a-johns or safe areas to optionless stage designs. They asked us to car pool without telling us there was a half mile between stages and another half mile between where you park and where you shoot. I don't know how long the lunch people were open, maybe it was just me but every time I went to get a drink or something to eat they were closed.

The match stages and bays were posted on the USPSA web site a month before the match & the match book explained about the 1/2 mile between ends. A look at your squad # & the squad schedule would have told you if you had to swap ends during your rotation.

I don't know why they had to double up field courses in a single bay, it seemed like we passed 4 or 5 open bays on the drive to the other side of the range. That slowed things up and caused the weird 180 issues others have discussed.

There were only 2 unused bays that you passed; a 300 yard bay that would have required you walk at least 200 yards in to the bay to put the starting position even with the 100 yard bay shooting location that was next to it. I wasn't on 1 of the bays with the 180 issues but I'll bet the CRO mentioned it as part of the walkthrough. I know my CRO did as the starting position was parallel to the 180.

However we had fun, were out shooting in great weather with great scenery. Probably just first Nationals growing pains I would imagine. The staff and RO's were great as always.

Thank you for the kind words & if Missoula should ever be selected for another Nationals, I hope you will think about coming back.

[geezer-lock]

We saw two moose (meese??) - a male and a female. The female was to the east of the Lamar Valley on the road toward Cooke City and the north east entrance. The male was north of Cooke City on the Beartooth Highway. We saw plenty of bison and elk, two bald eagles, 4 black bear, one grizzly, yellow bellied marmots, chipmunks, ground squirrels, pronghorn, and mule deer. No coyotes or wolves, though. Lots and lots of critters

Yup, and that was just out there in the woods. The REAL wildlife was at the Ironhorse Brew Pub!

My family and I thoroughly enjoyed my first nationals. I have been a dues paying member for over 20 years and thought that this venue would be one that my kith and kin would enjoy on many levels. That turned out to be true in every respect. We had a great time everywhere we went and a memorable vacation experience ON TOP OF my great time at the range.

Funny how one's focus can affect the view. I had to go back and look at my pictures to see the "cheesy" parts some have mentioned. I had no memory of that sort of stuff. I know from experience that putting up a match of any size can be extremely labor intensive and a challenge for any club regardless of size. The local guys put up sturdy, safe props and I think that is the most important part. The only thing I complained about was the MASSIVE weights on the swingers. Holy cow those things were fast!

Squad 23 had to do the bay shift on both days and all the geezers made it without incident or complaint. There were enough cars on the road that hitchhiking should have been relatively easy. It would have been nice if there had been a wagon or two available to haul folks. I hailed the one guy I saw walking and he turned down a ride. Go figure.

I have bragged to everyone at home about the hot/cold running water in the AIR CONTDITIONED bathroom! I thought there were enough portacans and it appeared to me that they had been mucked out on Thursday afternoon.

The facility was very impressive overall, the RO's and other staff top notch and the COF's were challenging.

I'm not a Grand Master and my opinion doesn't carry much weight here but I think those guys from Montana done good. If they do it again I will be back if I can game the wait list.

David C

Edited July 2, 2007 by geezer-lock

[SmittyFL]

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have said anything....it sounded harsh after reading it and I do 100% appreciate everything done by USPSA, local clubs, local shooters, RO's, staff, etc. As a section coordinator I understand a little of what it takes to keep the sport running; none the less I felt for a National level match it could have been much better. I don't want to argue back and forth, but I'll answer your questions.

As a member of Big Sky Practical Shooting Club and the set-up crew I guess I may be a little sensitive to your complaints since the rest of the country is forming an opinion based on your views.

I have what some might consider a stupid question... But why was stage 17 so bad?

Because it was stupid. Just like the life jacket thing was stupid....what the hell was the point of that? Pushing the thing off the table.....stupid. (why not just activate the target?) Throw the coin in the bucket....stupid. Pick up a bowling ball bag, carry it around and throw it on an activator?..?...stupid. Having one or even two stupid things like that in a match is cool; 4 or 5 of them is just too much. You walk away talking about all the dumb things you had to do instead of the shooting challenge. Which there didn't seem to be much of, a lot of partials but no distance to speak of. I'm not normally one to bitch about the prop tossing stuff; just when it takes over a match. All my opinion of course.

Why were all these things stupid? Just because they forced to to do something other than hose. There were several life jackets so you could find a size you wanted & they didn't have to be buckled, it was part of the senerio theme that people seem to want. The bowling ball bag only required that you pick it up & throw it on the activator after about 2 steps. Robbie missed the bucket with the coin & ran after it & had a big laugh about it at the awards ceremony. So 4-5 stages out of 18 were prop stages & it takes over the match. When is distance a requirement for accurate shooting, or was it the 30 head shots on Block Heads, which with stages 17 & 18 the only ones with only one solution.

The life jacket thing I really don't get. What senerio theme? That would have been one of the best stages of the match if it weren't for the jacket. It had nothing to do with anything. The bowling ball bag same thing....just carry it a couple steps and thow it on an activator for a drop out. The target didn't need to be timed, it just dropped out and stayed out. It could have just been sitting there. If you would have had to shoot with the bag in your hand at least it would have been more a part of the stage. I laughed with everybody on Rob's bucket comment also but it still had nothing to do with shooting. A couple of us noticed that at dinner in the evenings we were talking about how to wear a life vest, or push a box of a table, or hold a button down instead of how to shoot the stages. That pretty much tells me there was too much non-shooting stuff.

I hate to bad mouth a match that so many folks volunteered their time to put on, but it was the poorest Nationals I've been to by far. Everything from not enough port-a-johns or safe areas to optionless stage designs. They asked us to car pool without telling us there was a half mile between stages and another half mile between where you park and where you shoot. I don't know how long the lunch people were open, maybe it was just me but every time I went to get a drink or something to eat they were closed.

The match stages and bays were posted on the USPSA web site a month before the match & the match book explained about the 1/2 mile between ends. A look at your squad # & the squad schedule would have told you if you had to swap ends during your rotation.

I guess I missed that. I didn't realize it until were were there on match day with three people in a car and never the three of us on the same side of the range. No biggie, just annoying.

I don't know why they had to double up field courses in a single bay, it seemed like we passed 4 or 5 open bays on the drive to the other side of the range. That slowed things up and caused the weird 180 issues others have discussed.

There were only 2 unused bays that you passed; a 300 yard bay that would have required you walk at least 200 yards in to the bay to put the starting position even with the 100 yard bay shooting location that was next to it. I wasn't on 1 of the bays with the 180 issues but I'll bet the CRO mentioned it as part of the walkthrough. I know my CRO did as the starting position was parallel to the 180.

I'm sure you are right, it just appeared the range was huge and the double bays weren't necessary.

However we had fun, were out shooting in great weather with great scenery. Probably just first Nationals growing pains I would imagine. The staff and RO's were great as always.

Thank you for the kind words & if Missoula should ever be selected for another Nationals, I hope you will think about coming back.

Again, sorry to come off so harsh. It's nothing personal and only my opinion. It was a good time, as shooting always is; if they come back to MT I'll be there for sure. I just expected a little more from a Nationals. That doesn't reflect on the local clubs in my opinion, it's something USPSA should have addressed. But I'm not sure how involved they are in the prep of a Nationals.

[XRe]

As a member of Big Sky Practical Shooting Club and the set-up crew I guess I may be a little sensitive to your complaints since the rest of the country is forming an opinion based on your views.

LeRoy - I wouldn't take Smitty's comments too personally

Which there didn't seem to be much of, a lot of partials but no distance to speak of. I'm not normally one to bitch about the prop tossing stuff; just when it takes over a match. All my opinion of course.

The challenge in this match was more due to trying to cope with partials at speed. No, there wasn't a lot of distance - not like last year - but there were plenty of traps with partial targets. I'd say that, from my perspective, the shooting challenge proved to be more difficult this year than last year - not by much, but I'd say it was there....

So 4-5 stages out of 18 were prop stages & it takes over the match. When is distance a requirement for accurate shooting, or was it the 30 head shots on Block Heads, which with stages 17 & 18 the only ones with only one solution.

Well, I think the primary things you hear discussed after the match sort of determine this. No, 5 stages don't really "take over" a match, per se. But, they tend to be the focal points... I've only really seen discussion on three other stages, post-match.

What can likely make them "stupid" (I prefer the term "goofy") is the effect on people's scores that the non-shooting activity can have - or the effect on shooter safety. 17 obviously proved to be overly penal, and the hardware implementation just wasn't well done - if the shooter has to hold the button down, but cannot easily be aware of the indications (I didn't have problems there, but I could hear the horn or see the light due to the angle to the light, and the pitch of the tone combined with hearing protection and actively being involved in shooting).

One way that has been resolved in the past was that the action required by the competitor causes the targets to appear and remain available. For instance - targets appear as long as the button is held, and disappear when its not. This has been a precedent at other Nationals (the "computer" stages at the '97 Nationals, among others, comes to mind). It requires a little more "prop investment", but it works in a way that is intuitively obvious to the competitor...

As far as safety goes... the bag was asking for sweeping (granted, its the competitor's responsibility to safely manage it, but it does create a "trap" for the shooter).

The turnstile stage required that you be skilled at something that obviously not everyone can do well, and it obviously baked a couple of noodles. Potentially a better way to do this would have been that dropping the "coin" (or whatever "object" into a closer recepticle would unlock the turnstile in front of you or something). That way, no penalties for not doing it - you have to do it to get through the stage - and with it closer and easier to operate, no penalty to those folks who can't toss a coin into a bucket a couple of feet away (or get unlucky, and have it come out of the bucket... that could've been solved with some carpet on the bottoms of the buckets, or something to that effect....)

Again - hindsight is 20/20...

but it was the poorest Nationals I've been to by far. Everything from not enough port-a-johns or safe areas to optionless stage designs.

I've only been to three.... and I'd have a tough time rating it as "poorest by far". But, you bring up some good issues. I didn't really have problems getting into a porta-potty or restroom when I needed it, but I did see some lines. Could've used more safe areas, but they were still pretty available (having one on each bay would've been better, maybe, but...). There were a few stages with no options as to how to shoot them, true, and a few stages that basically gave you variations on the same plan. But, that's been pretty typical in my experience, as well. I count about the same numbers as last year, yet I didn't hear much bellyaching about lack of options in last year's stages?

To compare to the Open Nats in Tulsa last year, the stages weren't all that different, though with various prop manipulation things this year (last year really had none). They got the amenities right last year (food all day long, and plenty of it, plenty of porta-potties, plenty of parking, etc). But, the steel flat out sucked.

They asked us to car pool without telling us there was a half mile between stages and another half mile between where you park and where you shoot. I don't know how long the lunch people were open, maybe it was just me but every time I went to get a drink or something to eat they were closed.

I have to agree with LeRoy, here, that we were informed in advance about the distance between ranges, etc. I agree with you regarding the lunch folks, though - they weren't in operation for as long as some of us would have liked them to be, and they weren't well stocked with some items (they promptly ran out of water on the first day, before the shooters meeting started, for instance).

The point here, I think, is that no match is perfect (at least, I haven't been to it, yet, if its been done regularly...). We can't improve if we don't discuss the weak points. I'm sure the staff and match direction learned some things to avoid or rethink for next time.

On the plus side, the match was a lot of fun (at least for me), and the shooting was appropriately challenging. For the most part, everything was very well done - and the RO staff was definitely the politest and most professional of the Nationals I've been to.

[AlamoShooter]

Thanks Geezer-lock For the ride offer I was just walking off a not so good a stage. I got over 7 ride offers . I did not go to the nat properly perpared, I felt like I had let the great guys down that had helped me IPSC. I spent more time getting ready to Hike & Fly fish than the event it self.

The good thing about the event was that it found every week part in my shooting and equipment. I did not like that many -Goofy- things in one match, and the 180 set in shared bays. ! BUT ! the Great way the event was hosted and the RO's made up for every thing. We drove 1,900 miles 4,500 miles round trip, and it was worth every mile.

I got to hike over the Continental Divide in Glacier Nat park and see a part of America only accessible by foot. That was one of the greatest fealing I have ever had.

Thanks to evey-one in Montana for 2007

Jamie

[XRe]

The good thing about the event was that it found every week part in my shooting and equipment.

That's exactly what the match should do

We drove 1,900 miles 4,500 miles round trip, and it was worth every mile.

I got to hike over the Continental Divide in Glacier Nat park and see a part of America only accessible by foot. That was one of the greatest fealing I have ever had.

Glad you made it back safely, Jamie Glacier is definitely on my list... I'll have to pick your brain for good hiking to do, etc...

My wife and I hiked all over the Grand Canyon of Yellowstone. When we're at the bottom of Uncle Tom's Trail (which takes you right to the base of the Lower Falls), she says "It just makes me feel so small...."... that about sums it up

[AlamoShooter]

Yep ..Small and Big at the same time = its allmost like you could talk with the people that Built the land, the rivers, hear the story of the Mountains them selves. Taulk with the soul of the land.

It realy made the shooting seam trivial for me. .... That is suposed to be a great hike in Yellowstone,& not so eazy. I bet you did not see many other people.

Making it over the Pass on a hard trail was real mind candy that added to my joy.

Congrats on your shooting & the hike with your wife.

Edited July 2, 2007 by AlamoShooter

[BritinUSA]

The sport has definitely changed since I first started shooting, the first two World Shoots that I took part in '93 and '96 had an astonishing amount of Props and non-shooting related actions. The same is true of my first 2 European matches. Firing an arrow from a bow, jumping from trucks, sitting in a boat floating in several hundred gallons of water, sliding down slides, inserting computer disks into doors to get them to open. Start positions that include being tied to torture racks, laying in a hammock (have you ever tried getting out of a hammock quickly ?). Swinging side to side in a boat suspended from an overhead beam.

This is what practical shooting used to be. Too much of it is a bad thing but a few stages with that kind of stuff will really mess with your brain. The Stage 17 at this years Nationals was badly executed. You cannot penalise the shooter for something that they cannot see or hear while shooting. The light was so low down that the shooter would have suffered a time penalty to take their eyes of the shooting to make sure it was working. The buzzer could not even be heard. Using the switch to activate a target would have been much better, as someone has already suggested. Another suggestion would be to just hold the handle with the weak hand. It would accomplish the same goal (make the shooter shoot strong hand only). But this was only one stage and I would not use that as a basis for condemning this Nationals.

My biggest gripe was the doubling up of stages and the bizarre muzzle angles on the baseball stage. The baseball stage was unsafe in my opinion and the doubling of berms made another stage (4 I think) into a 90 degree trap, I watched a lot of people break the 90 degree on that stage and yet none of them were DQed.

The match was very well run, and the ROs and support staff were up to the usual very high expectations. I just had an issue with stage setup and with one unsafe stage. Hosting a big match is like shooting a big match, it's where we find the weaknesses in our abilities and where stages design gets tested to the limit.

All these comments are not meant in a bad way, just trying to be constructive.

[shred]

For the prop-tossers out there, Rob missed the bucket. Ted didn't. If Ted wins the match by 5 points is he a better practical shooter?

I've been to several nationals and I thought this was at least as good as the others, much more so for the range, location and weather. The COFs did have a very different flavor from Tulsa last year, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

[Pete Goloski]

I don't usually get involved with these discussions, but since I designed one of the stages (Ticket ot Ride--AKA Turnstile/Coin Toss)) and my name was on it, I thought I would "toss" in my 2 cents worth--so to speak. Those of you who have designed and submitted courses of fire for major tournaments know that very often, they do not end up being set up the way you had intended. Such was the case with this one. I was not there, and I do not know the rationale for making the changes, but knowing the caliber of the people who were running the match, I am sure the reasons were valid and well reasoned. My original CoF had the shooter holding a coin/token in the strong hand and at the signal, he/she merely had to drop the coin in a slot/cup/? attached to the first turnstile. My reason for doing this was to have the starting hand position different from the usual "Hands at sides" or "surrender". I would have made sure that the placing of the coin in it's recepticle, would have been ridiculously easy and as fool proof as possible. Tossing a coin in a bucket (with a procedural attached for missing it) is simply not acceptable for a world class tournament course of fire (IMO). The course design also called for a low wall with a low target behind it and the three poppers visible (This is after the shooter passes through the second turnstile). My thought was that the top shooters would never break stride. They would drop the coin, engage the two swingers and two static targets, go through the second turnstile, engage the three poppers, the third mover on the move and run up to the low wall to engage the last (low) target. I envisioned the top speedsters running the course in the 6-8 second range. I am honored to have had a course of fire included in the nationals and as I have said, I am sure that the changes made to it were for good reasons. These kinds of discussions are extremely valuable because they make you think about what you have done and more importantly--make you learn. The lesson here might be: You should never let something the shooter has to do BEFORE he/she draws the gun affect the outcome of the match. 2 cents.

[BritinUSA]

The lesson here might be: You should never let something the shooter has to do BEFORE he/she draws the gun affect the outcome of the match. 2 cents.

Clear, concise and to the point... good rule of thumb for stage design.

I like the idea of starting the shooter in a position that they are not used to, it encourages innovation, the top shooters should be able to adapt to strange positions/actions. I would have had no problem with dropping the coin into a slot, but tossing it to a bucket engendered too much of an element of luck for my taste.

[Mistral404]

I have been to a few Nationals and Area 2 and 4 matches. I thought this match was quite good. It had a nice mix of stages. As previously said, some props are designed to distract the shooters. That is their sole purpose. So this match's prop were generally no different than any others. Look at the cart ride at Area 2 last year. A great number of shooters zero'd that stage also. The year before A2 had 4 stages in a row that were totally mind games. I appreciated this year's stage design over A2 from 2 years ago. Granted some of the stages had only one shooting solution for the Open shooters. The L10 folks had more options so to speak.

Stage 17 was a bit of a joke. It was stupid to have a buzzer that could not be heard and a light that could not be seen. The CRO on the stage was looking to penalize people. I think he is the one who penalize two shooters for coaching. When was the last time that was called? I am sure if that had not been penalized that would have displaced TGO and Ted.

I drove to both shooting areas twice like many others. I did not bother me. The staff and ROs were way above average than I had experienced at other National matches.

It was interesting to note that the Nationals matches seem to have fewer and fewer vendors show up. That to me is a real issue that should be addressed. A2 has more vendors show up than Nationals have show up. What are they doing right?

Again, I think it was a great match even though I probably did my worse at this one v. the others.

[Still Praying]

Again I would like to say how great the RO's and staff were. Well, all but the one RO that thought it was real funny that my reshoot didn't work out well, and was rubbing my nose in it.

I may be wrong here but, I think whoever was incharge of this match was trying to make it more exciting for us with the unseeable light and unhearable beeper, life jacket, washer in bucket etc, etc. I think they meant well but, it backfired. Whoever it was needs to know that most of us just like shooting really fast and accurate with movement and a lot of safety.

Last years Open/Production Nationals was my first and I thought the stages and range were great. I thought the stages were a little drab at first with just black screen but, great for the shooters and spectators to see what was going on. They even made the simple stages very challenging by moving the targets out to 35 and 45 yards. That made a 40 to 60 point stand still stage a lot more fun and challenging. The forward falling poppers were the only real problem. Live and learn. Where was the professionalism that I saw last year? I really expected this match to be as good or better but, it wasn't.

I would like to know if we had anyone from the USPSA office to inspect the range and stages before the match to make sure that our National match represents our sport like we want it to. Surely USPSA don't just let a local match staff call the shots on this one. If so, we got what we asked for and we need to make some changes here.

Again Thanks for all the hard work.

Ronnie

[novafla]

As a middle 'C' shooter, these Nationals were GREAT for me.

Two of us traveled together to attend our second USPSA Nationals (2005/Barry, IL). We withdrew last year, along with 3 other of our local shooters, because we didn't particularly enjoy that 2005 experience (Too long waiting between stages and at stages. Too long away from home and too expensive for the total experience).

This year however, going to Missoula, Montana was a total experience. The beauty of the area and the absolutely delightful local people, made it just wonderful and full of enjoyment for us.

Making a trip like this for a "recreational shooter" is something that we love to combine with seeing the sights, meeting the people, enjoying the environment and learning more about this absolutely fabulous United States that we live in.

The Missoula geography was unbelieveably beautiful, it took our breath away looking at the mountains, watching golden eagles circling above and just standing silently looking around us as we waited our turn to shoot on the stages. The shooting was great, but for us it was secondary to everything else we enjoyed. I think we are both very serious about our shooting, but it was only part of what the Nationals was for us. When we talk about the trip to folks back home, it's Missoula, and then Montana that we mention first.

I will remember my time spent there and want to return again, not just because of the match, but because of what wonderful opportunities that area has to offer.

The local folks were beyond a doubt, some of the nicest, most polite folks we have encounted anywhere. The entire community was delightful to deal with, friendly, welcoming, and helpful with information, conversation and about things to do and places to go.

In our off time, we visited Garnet, the ghost town (WOW, what a treat), watched the river kayakers at the overlook for hours; rode the carousel and enjoyed the free downtown music/dance; rode the chairlift at the Snowbowl and mountain biked down (4 times all for $5); visited the Bison Range to see the buffalo, Elk, and Antelope; ate at the Depot Restaurant (where the most beautiful group of young attractive waitresses exist in the world); enjoyed the Big Sky Brewery Tasting Room (free beer choices and great conversation); visited the Harley-Davidson dealership and chatted with local bike enthusists for 2 hours about the great riding in Montana.

Oh, and we did shoot the Nationals in between all this other stuff. Yes, we both shot poorly, but had probably one of the best times anyone could ask for.

For the local population and especially the ROs, we had to compliment all of them for their welcoming us as they did and also comment how fortunate they are to live in such a beautiful place.

We were among great local people with a strong work ethic, concern and appreciation for their environment, and a general pride about being independent and strong Americans. They are full of vigor, and stand tall for their way of life. We really admired that, also wishing that was a more prevailing attitude in other parts of our country as well.

Thank you Missoula for allowing us to enjoy what you have to offer. I would love to come backto see and do more. I didn't have enough this time.

We appreciate all you hard work. The 2007 USPSA Nationals for us was just GREAT.

[XRe]

Stage 17 was a bit of a joke. It was stupid to have a buzzer that could not be heard and a light that could not be seen. The CRO on the stage was looking to penalize people. I think he is the one who penalize two shooters for coaching. When was the last time that was called? I am sure if that had not been penalized that would have displaced TGO and Ted.

I'm pretty certain Jay was not "looking to penalize people". He's a by the book kind of guy, and wouldn't go throwing a penalty around if it wasn't deserved. If someone was coaching, they were coaching, and should know better. I'm not sure what you mean by displacing TGO and Ted, but... no one that finished the match within 40 points of them or Taran were penalized on that stage, and no one in the top 53 on that stage were penalized, either. So, I think this is BS....

Where was the professionalism that I saw last year? I really expected this match to be as good or better but, it wasn't.

Aside from the match flow hurdles, I think this match was very professionally done? You have to keep in mind that your first experience was somewhat exceptional. The guys in Tulsa at USSA went above and beyond - I believe that shows their commitment to hosting major matches at that facility for a long time to come. Plus, they have a full time staff (though I'm not sure how many of them worked on that match). The BSPSA folks are all volunteers. There was a lot of prop construction to be done for this match, etc - and a it was a crew hosting its first Nationals. Some burps are to be expected, and I think they did a great job hosting the match, overall.

I would like to know if we had anyone from the USPSA office to inspect the range and stages before the match to make sure that our National match represents our sport like we want it to. Surely USPSA don't just let a local match staff call the shots on this one. If so, we got what we asked for and we need to make some changes here.

USPSA was very present for the setup week before the match. This is a USPSA run match, not a local club run match. If you are unhappy with something about the match, USPSA is where to lodge the complaint, not BSPSA....

But... I don't think this match poorly represented USPSA. It wasn't as sharp as last year's effort - I'll grant you that. But it wasn't a disaster or anything like that, either. This was easily as good as the two major matches I've attended in Barry (a Nationals, and a North American Championship).

[shred]

+10 on having the match in a great place like Missoula. I'll even trade match quality for a better overall vacation experience-- except for a few, this isn't a job, so it oughta be fun on and off the range.

We stayed in a little mountain cabin and had to clear bighorn sheep off the road on the way to the range at least once.. Tougher to do in Barry or Tulsa..

[Bret Heidkamp]

The Missoula geography was unbelieveably beautiful, it took our breath away looking at the mountains, watching golden eagles circling above and just standing silently looking around us as we waited our turn to shoot on the stages. The shooting was great, but for us it was secondary to everything else we enjoyed. I think we are both very serious about our shooting, but it was only part of what the Nationals was for us. When we talk about the trip to folks back home, it's Missoula, and then Montana that we mention first.

I will remember my time spent there and want to return again, not just because of the match, but because of what wonderful opportunities that area has to offer.

Friggin' awesome comments. This is what a Nationals location is all about. Barry, IL never did it for me. In fact, after sweating my *ss off at the old S&W Millenium match there, I boycotted Barry. Even though I earned a slot every year, if the Nats were there, I didn't go. I absolutely hate that place. It's an armpit full of mold and 90/90 weather (sorry if someone from here lives there - no reflection on the people). Why on earth should a major event, which for many is a vacation, be held in such a crappy place? Oh yeah, there is just SO much to do in Barry.

Missoula rocked, as usual. The staff and RO's were awesome, the scenery is always a treat (did anyone notice the "river view" from the road in the afternoons?). I thought the BSPSC did a great job on the running of the match and the items up to them. That range is simply beautiful.

Not to mention we saw Jojo's ugly mug in a full color photo in the paper, front page of the Outdoor section. What other cities would do that for a shooting sport?

Also, FYI that isn't the first major match held there. BSPSC and Missoula hosted Area 1 twice already.

[chuckbradley]

I gather from the posts in this thread that there was some dissatisfaction with the splendor of the match. I was not there but have been to a few nationals post Andy Hollar as well as many during Andy's administration. His matches had splendor but the problem was the cost associated with the extras like award banquets as well as most present day shooters needing to get home as soon as possible. Also having the match at a single venue year after year allowed for props to accrue and result in a more professional appearance. There are 2 things I think would bring the splendor back to the nationals. With out these things we will continue as we are now. First the President, according to the bylaws, is completely responsible for the administration of the Nationals. We need a president whose first priority is the organization and putting on a quality match OR a change in the bylaws to bring more people, eg. the BOD members and USPSA staff, into the responsibility of the match. The other thing which I think is a larger factor is for USPSA to have a home range where the nationals can be held year after year. I know there is opposition to this. Some like to have the match move around. We have to realize there is a trade off. Do we want mobility or quality and continuity? This has been discussed before. I just thought with some of the comments it was time to bring it forward again.

[chuckbradley]

The Missoula geography was unbelieveably beautiful, it took our breath away looking at the mountains, watching golden eagles circling above and just standing silently looking around us as we waited our turn to shoot on the stages. The shooting was great, but for us it was secondary to everything else we enjoyed. I think we are both very serious about our shooting, but it was only part of what the Nationals was for us. When we talk about the trip to folks back home, it's Missoula, and then Montana that we mention first.

I will remember my time spent there and want to return again, not just because of the match, but because of what wonderful opportunities that area has to offer.

Friggin' awesome comments. This is what a Nationals location is all about. Barry, IL never did it for me. In fact, after sweating my *ss off at the old S&W Millenium match there, I boycotted Barry. Even though I earned a slot every year, if the Nats were there, I didn't go. I absolutely hate that place. It's an armpit full of mold and 90/90 weather (sorry if someone from here lives there - no reflection on the people). Why on earth should a major event, which for many is a vacation, be held in such a crappy place? Oh yeah, there is just SO much to do in Barry.

Missoula rocked, as usual. The staff and RO's were awesome, the scenery is always a treat (did anyone notice the "river view" from the road in the afternoons?). I thought the BSPSC did a great job on the running of the match and the items up to them. That range is simply beautiful.

Not to mention we saw Jojo's ugly mug in a full color photo in the paper, front page of the Outdoor section. What other cities would do that for a shooting sport?

Also, FYI that isn't the first major match held there. BSPSC and Missoula hosted Area 1 twice already.

I am sure Missoula was great and I wish we could have gone, really wanted to go. But in defense of Barry/Quincy they did do alot for the organization including news and TV coverage. I also sweated it out in the summer time in Barry and also chose not to go at that time of year. The North American Championship is on my list of hottest matches I ever attended. Nothing beats Area 4 at Texarkana though. At the right time of the year I have experienced absolutely magnificent weather at Barry. Weather is a crap shoot wherever you go except maybe Reno and Vegas which had great weather for the Nationals in past years.

[mactiger]

It's important to remember that the Nationals always used to be held in the fall (late September) at PASA, which greatly improved the weather situation, although we did get rain and storms at some matches. Due to member pressure, the nationals schedule has been changed so that at least one match is in the summer, and not during school. This was done to accommodate our Junior shooters and to help members that wanted to travel with the family. PASA was built almost exclusively for USPSA shooting, and is still a dynamite facility. Part of the reason for that is as Chuck mentioned--accumulation of props and target stuff over the years. I wouldn't discount PASA from future Nationals.

Since the USPSA President picks the spot and times, email to him will be your best bet for getting Nationals scheduled in your ideal place. I personally liked Missoula, and will go there again anytime, but PASA is still like "home".

YMMV.

Troy