USPSA Single Stack Division

[Catfish]

I tried to order some 771 pouches for my SS today from Brownell's...They're discontinued at Brownell's.

Any ideas on where or what else to use??

this is great news! Someone to shoot SS with!!!

[dfwmiket]

If you'd go to the same matches I do, there is always someone shooting SS!!!

[Mick]

I was shooting my .40 Delta on Sunday. I can actually get some 1.4 second reloads from way back there. I'm so programed to reload from the front I really had to work on this stuff. If I get a step or two it'll be OK but standing reloads suck. I was using a double magpouch for a Glock that held them loosely. I gotta find a something good that I can reach for mag pouches.

I need to get an SV Single Stack soon.

[Mick]

OK, its a couple days later and I pondered this new Division a bit more. I thought about starting a new thread but I'll start here instead.

In another thread the BOD or a representative wrote about making single stack holsters and mag pouches something that would be used in the "real world" (don't get me started on that again!).

I figure we have PRODUCTION for those REAL WORLD folks but they are allowed to carry the DOH holster which doesn't make sense for REAL WORLD carry.

I wish the BOD would have taken SS back to the days before the hi-cap/wide body guns when we had those neat Ernie Hill holsters and "leather slap" contests instead of some perceived REAL WORLD beliefs. We had some neat leather holsters and mag pouches that made IPSC the game that it is. Go back a few issues in the FRONT SIGHT and look at the historical pictures (great, that makes me historical!) from the Ray Chapman days with the gear they had. I think BE has some good early picturses on this site!!!

Here is the big question...Do we want the nostalgia from the early days or something that presents us with that perceived REAL WORLD concept????

You can shoot your REAL WORLD gear in any of the LTD/L10/PROD/SS divisons if you want to but why make it mandatory to wear what is perceived as REAL WORLD in a class where nostalgia has it's biggest home?? Using a DOH in PRODUCTION but NOT in SS doesn't make sense.

If it was up to me, we'd be using the gear like what they started this game with but no space rigs for SS.

[tpcdvc]

OK, its a couple days later and I pondered this new Division a bit more. I thought about starting a new thread but I'll start here instead.

In another thread the BOD or a representative wrote about making single stack holsters and mag pouches something that would be used in the "real world" (don't get me started on that again!).

I figure we have PRODUCTION for those REAL WORLD folks but they are allowed to carry the DOH holster which doesn't make sense for REAL WORLD carry.

I wish the BOD would have taken SS back to the days before the hi-cap/wide body guns when we had those neat Ernie Hill holsters and "leather slap" contests instead of some perceived REAL WORLD beliefs. We had some neat leather holsters and mag pouches that made IPSC the game that it is. Go back a few issues in the FRONT SIGHT and look at the historical pictures (great, that makes me historical!) from the Ray Chapman days with the gear they had. I think BE has some good early picturses on this site!!!

Here is the big question...Do we want the nostalgia from the early days or something that presents us with that perceived REAL WORLD concept????

You can shoot your REAL WORLD gear in any of the LTD/L10/PROD/SS divisons if you want to but why make it mandatory to wear what is perceived as REAL WORLD in a class where nostalgia has it's biggest home?? Using a DOH in PRODUCTION but NOT in SS doesn't make sense.

If it was up to me, we'd be using the gear like what they started this game with but no space rigs for SS.

Well, I'm not sure but I don't think nostalgia was the catalyst for SS. I really think it was more about a home for the weapon that to a great degree formed our sport. Before SS yes you could shoot one in L10 but most people right or wrong felt like they were at a disadvantage. TGO proved once again that it is more about your skill set than your weapon!!! Personally, I don't care what the rig looks like I'm just glad people can shoot their 1911's in a division and not feel hampered.

[LPatterson]

OK, its a couple days later and I pondered this new Division a bit more. I thought about starting a new thread but I'll start here instead.

In another thread the BOD or a representative wrote about making single stack holsters and mag pouches something that would be used in the "real world" (don't get me started on that again!).

I figure we have PRODUCTION for those REAL WORLD folks but they are allowed to carry the DOH holster which doesn't make sense for REAL WORLD carry.

I wish the BOD would have taken SS back to the days before the hi-cap/wide body guns when we had those neat Ernie Hill holsters and "leather slap" contests instead of some perceived REAL WORLD beliefs. We had some neat leather holsters and mag pouches that made IPSC the game that it is. Go back a few issues in the FRONT SIGHT and look at the historical pictures (great, that makes me historical!) from the Ray Chapman days with the gear they had. I think BE has some good early picturses on this site!!!

Here is the big question...Do we want the nostalgia from the early days or something that presents us with that perceived REAL WORLD concept????

You can shoot your REAL WORLD gear in any of the LTD/L10/PROD/SS divisons if you want to but why make it mandatory to wear what is perceived as REAL WORLD in a class where nostalgia has it's biggest home?? Using a DOH in PRODUCTION but NOT in SS doesn't make sense.

If it was up to me, we'd be using the gear like what they started this game with but no space rigs for SS.

The pictures I see of the early days show a dropped thigh holster strapped to the leg. Is this what you want to see returned? Why do you keep talking about REAL WORLD this and that since this is a game played with a set of rules and not the REAL WORLD. In the REAL WORLD if I got in a fight I would do anything & everything to win even if I had to kick you in the knuts to do it. If you don't like rules then vote for someone who will change them to what you want.

[ipscbob]

Here is the big question...Do we want the nostalgia from the early days or something that presents us with that perceived REAL WORLD concept????

If it was up to me, we'd be using the gear like what they started this game with but no space rigs for SS.

Neither! This sport has progressed on innovation and pure competition with zero emphasis on REAL WORLD issues. The sport and organisation needs to evolve to stay alive, not regress. If I want nostalgia, I will join SASS. The BOD should be making decisions on what will bring in young new shooters. Nostalgia just won't do it!

[revchuck]

This sport has progressed on innovation and pure competition with zero emphasis on REAL WORLD issues. The sport and organisation needs to evolve to stay alive, not regress. If I want nostalgia, I will join SASS. The BOD should be making decisions on what will bring in young new shooters. Nostalgia just won't do it!

Bob - It sounds like you feel its inappropriate for USPSA to have divisions other than Open and Limited, then you say we should be working on drawing in new shooters. I'm not sure that's what you meant, but that's my perception - please correct me if I'm wrong.

IIRC, USPSA was shrinking until Production , L10 and (to a lesser extent) Revolver became divisions. Open and Limited are far more expensive in terms of guns, gear and ammo than the newer divisions; this put off shooters who might otherwise have been enthusiastic members. I know that the average income of USPSA members is higher than that of other Americans, but that's an average, and therefore includes folks of equal enthusiasm but lower income. Should they be excluded because they can't afford cutting edge shooting stuff?

Also, for nostalgic reasons or otherwise, there are a bunch of folks who just flat like the original 1911. They like the way it feels and points, and they appreciate the excellent human engineering of the design. Some even carry one in the "real world". For most of us over 35, it's the gun we started USPSA/IPSC with.

I have no idea whether it was an intended consequence of the BoD's actions, but these divisons (Production and SS) also allow an easy crossover for shooters wishing to shoot both USPSA and IDPA. There is a good number of folks in my area who shoot both, to the benefit of both sports.

Innovation is an integral part of USPSA. So is remembering where we started, and providing an easy way in for new shooters. There's plenty of room for all in the organization.

[ipscbob]

Bob - It sounds like you feel its inappropriate for USPSA to have divisions other than Open and Limited, then you say we should be working on drawing in new shooters. I'm not sure that's what you meant, but that's my perception - please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yup, I never said that and did not intend it My intent was that a division based on nostalgia or REAL WORLD applications is not what is needed to continue to grow the membership. The cowboys do really well for nostalgia and IDPA has pretty much cornered REAL WORLD. We should be emphasizing our strengths. I shoot open, production, and L10. I already have a place where my 1911 singlestacks are competitive and it is L10.

IIRC, USPSA was shrinking until Production , L10 and (to a lesser extent) Revolver became divisions. Open and Limited are far more expensive in terms of guns, gear and ammo than the newer divisions; this put off shooters who might otherwise have been enthusiastic members. I know that the average income of USPSA members is higher than that of other Americans, but that's an average, and therefore includes folks of equal enthusiasm but lower income. Should they be excluded because they can't afford cutting edge shooting stuff?

Also, for nostalgic reasons or otherwise, there are a bunch of folks who just flat like the original 1911. They like the way it feels and points, and they appreciate the excellent human engineering of the design. Some even carry one in the "real world". For most of us over 35, it's the gun we started USPSA/IPSC with.

As I said I love shooting production and L10 divisions as well as open. This division just makes no sense to me and seems to be targeted towards a very small but vocal segment of the membership. I dont believe that this division would have survived a majority vote of the membership had there been a vote.

[revchuck]

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree - this kind of discussion goes much better over coffee or beer, anyway.

This division just makes no sense to me and seems to be targeted towards a very small but vocal segment of the membership.

This year's SS Nationals had 284 shooters, up from 238 last year. Not too bad for a small segment of the membership. I wonder what it'll be next year, when the division is no longer provisional!

FWIW, my two L10 classifiers were shot with my Series 70 Gubmint Model - one of them with eight round mags.

[zhunter]

As I said I love shooting production and L10 divisions as well as open. This division just makes no sense to me and seems to be targeted towards a very small but vocal segment of the membership. I dont believe that this division would have survived a majority vote of the membership had there been a vote.

The old saying goes something like... "Everyone is entitled to their opinion and most of them........"

I think that is the GREAT thing about USPSA, NO ONE is making you shoot a division, you have choices.

[Mick]

I really hesitated using the REAL WORLD comment but it's part of the game.

I go back and forth on the REAL WORLD debate with SWAT guys constantly.

They practice for the real world but generally can't keep up with a B LTD or average IDPA

guy!!!

SS and 1911s aside that REAL WORLD argument is bogus and I shouldn't have gone there.

Any of y'all that shoot IPSC or IDPA with any competence are head and shoulders above most cops to include SWAT guys (that I know). Your ability as a competitor will give you a DISTINCT advantage in a street scenario so ANY practice/competition is a REAL WORLD practice and skill development issue. I'll get off the soapbox now.

I was told last night that the 1911 Society had issues with the DOH holster and that is why it isn't allowed. BUT wait, carrying 5 or 6 mags on your belt really isn't what most folks would use on the street either so where did we escape reality? I'm not for the DOH but why is the SS Division different than Production?

I like having all the Divisions. It makes more folks come out. But I think we're getting too caught up in the rules with issues like the DOH for Production and not SS.

Edited July 6, 2007 by Mick

[Sestock]

Bob - It sounds like you feel its inappropriate for USPSA to have divisions other than Open and Limited, then you say we should be working on drawing in new shooters. I'm not sure that's what you meant, but that's my perception - please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yup, I never said that and did not intend it My intent was that a division based on nostalgia or REAL WORLD applications is not what is needed to continue to grow the membership. The cowboys do really well for nostalgia and IDPA has pretty much cornered REAL WORLD. We should be emphasizing our strengths. I shoot open, production, and L10. I already have a place where my 1911 singlestacks are competitive and it is L10.

IIRC, USPSA was shrinking until Production , L10 and (to a lesser extent) Revolver became divisions. Open and Limited are far more expensive in terms of guns, gear and ammo than the newer divisions; this put off shooters who might otherwise have been enthusiastic members. I know that the average income of USPSA members is higher than that of other Americans, but that's an average, and therefore includes folks of equal enthusiasm but lower income. Should they be excluded because they can't afford cutting edge shooting stuff?

Also, for nostalgic reasons or otherwise, there are a bunch of folks who just flat like the original 1911. They like the way it feels and points, and they appreciate the excellent human engineering of the design. Some even carry one in the "real world". For most of us over 35, it's the gun we started USPSA/IPSC with.

As I said I love shooting production and L10 divisions as well as open. This division just makes no sense to me and seems to be targeted towards a very small but vocal segment of the membership. I dont believe that this division would have survived a majority vote of the membership had there been a vote.

I guess revolver doesn't make sense to you either.

[elenius]

What really doesn't make sense is the holster/magpouch placement restrictions, especially combined with the 8 rd restriction of SS. Wearing 6 mag pouches behind the hip bone means some painful behind-the-back reaching for those last mags...

It doesn't make it more expensive to put some mag pouches up front, so I don't really get this one.

One one hand, they're trying to be "real world" and not allow mag pouches up front(?), but on the other hand, like someone said, how realistic is it to carry 6 mag pouches anyway?

Would it really hurt the "crossover" aspect to allow mag pouches anywhere on the belt? I don't think so.

[Gary Stevens]

The answers to all of your questions are here in the past postings and can be found by a search. I have posted them on numerous occasions and have participated in many discussions about these issues. In addition the original document I wrote outlining the rational behind the Provisional Single Stack Division is still posted on www.uspsa.org

Additionally the words "real world" have never been used by me and I created and championed the division. It is not "real world", it is a competitive game.

Gary

Edited July 6, 2007 by Gary Stevens

[GentlemanJim]

Having all these divisions wont have any bad impact on existing divisions that I can see.

I realy like seeing SS and revo shooters come out and play.

Run what you brung.

I intend to shoot some SS and I will conform to whatever rules they come up with reguardless of how silly they may be.

Jim

[Gary Stevens]

"regardless of how silly they may be"

[Merlin Orr]

Gary... What an outstanding avatar! 2001 - A Space Odyssey?

[GentlemanJim]

"regardless of how silly they may be"

No offence intended At this time I dont even know all the rules...I am just implying I will abide by the rules however they are written.

Unless they state that the shooter has to wear pink underware

Jim

[GentlemanJim]

Gary... What an outstanding avatar! 2001 - A Space Odyssey?

Ahhh...isnt that the borg ship??

Jim

Edit to say....just gotta swallow that foot one more time

Edited July 7, 2007 by GentlemanJim

[ima45dv8]

What started as a celebratory announcement regarding SS's full-blown recognition on 01Jan08 has once again morphed into a "what's wrong with it" fest, and sadly, Gary is again put in the middle of defending it all. As Gary said, details are available via the search engine.

If anyone has anything constructive to add to the original topic, please PM a moderator.

Thanks...