mag capacity

[ducati]

I have a Colt Super 38. The mags that come with the gun are 9 rds. I also have some Chip Mccormick 10 rounders.

I plan on using the Mccormicks with 9 rounds in the mags. Is this a violation or is this ok? This is for ESP division..

[kdmoore]

I have a Colt Super 38. The mags that come with the gun are 9 rds. I also have some Chip Mccormick 10 rounders.

I plan on using the Mccormicks with 9 rounds in the mags. Is this a violation or is this ok? This is for ESP division..

As long as the mags fit in the box (they should) then any of yours will work. So, just pick one capacity and use it thru the whole match. So yes, download the 10 round mags to 9, and use 9 rounds for all stages that require loading to "division capacity"

[RickB]

If you have one 9-rounder in use, you can load the 10-rounders with 9, but you can't choose to load the 10-rounders to 9 unless you are using a 9 in conjunction with them.

[Jim Taylor]

If you have one 9-rounder in use, you can load the 10-rounders with 9, but you can't choose to load the 10-rounders to 9 unless you are using a 9 in conjunction with them.

Not true. Either 9 rounds or 10 rounds for the entire match. Do not have to have a 9 rounder to download 10 rounders to 9.

Best regards,

Jim

[Jane]

High capacity magazines must be loaded to full division capacity of the division the contestant is shooting in.

Competitors must use the same capacity magazines through out the competition (Example: if you start with a 9 round magazine, you must use that capacity magazine throughout the match).

So you're allowed to download "high capacity" magazines to meet division maximum. But as Jim said, otherwise mags must be of same capacity throughout a match.

BTW, at Nationals last year, there was a box on each score sheet where the SO could record a competitor's magazine capacity.

[Steve J]

If you have one 9-rounder in use, you can load the 10-rounders with 9, but you can't choose to load the 10-rounders to 9 unless you are using a 9 in conjunction with them.

Not true. Either 9 rounds or 10 rounds for the entire match. Do not have to have a 9 rounder to download 10 rounders to 9.

Best regards,

Jim

Jim, considering paragraph E. below and similar paragraphs for each division, how/where do you infer that you have the option of only loading 9 rounds in a 10-round magazine when using all 10-round or higher capacity magazines. I only read it one way. You do not have that option. You must load to 10 rounds. That is the division capacity by definition for in this case ESP. Only when using a magazine that physically will not hold 10 rounds is your "personal" division capacity reduced.

3. Enhanced Service Pistol Division (ESP)

Handguns permitted for use in this division must:

A. Be semi-automatic.

B. Be 9mm (9x19) or larger caliber.

C. Have a maximum unloaded weight of 43 oz., including an

empty magazine.

D. Fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 8 ¾” x 6” x 1 5/8.”

with an empty magazine inserted.

E. Be loaded to the division capacity of ten (10) rounds in the

magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Should division

capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine

capacity, load should be to maximum mechanical capacity of

magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors

must use the same capacity magazines through out the

competition (Example: if you start with a 9 round magazine,

you must use that capacity magazine throughout the match).

[boo radley]

I'm totally confused, now.

Let's take CDP and suppose I have a couple 7 and 8 rounds magazines. If I read the rule you quote, Jane, it seems to me that if I start with a 7-round magazine, I can't use anything else *but* a 7-round magazine.

"...you must use that capacity magazine throughout the match..."

How does that rule allow me to use 8-round magazines, but downloaded to 7? This is something I know everyone does, but still don't see how the rule supports it.

That aside, if Jim Taylor is correct: I can show up with 8 round magazines, but decide to just load them all to 7 rounds? I don't even need to bring a 7-round magazine with me? That doesn't seem right...

I'd appreciate any clarification on this. Thx!!

[Steve J]

The rule is very clear. Division capacity for ESP and SSP is 10 in the mag and one in the chamber. CDP is 8 in the mag and one in the chamber.

If you have magazines that physically hold less, ALL of your magazines that you use in that match MUST be downloaded to be equal to your lowest capacity magazine. You can't mix and match mag counts. That's to keep people from gaming round counts.

ESP and SSP given all 10 round or higher capacity mags MUST load to 10.

CDP given all 8 round mags MUST load to 8.

[RickB]

If you have one 9-rounder in use, you can load the 10-rounders with 9, but you can't choose to load the 10-rounders to 9 unless you are using a 9 in conjunction with them.

Not true. Either 9 rounds or 10 rounds for the entire match. Do not have to have a 9 rounder to download 10 rounders to 9.

Best regards,

Jim

You must load to division capacity, unless the mag will not hold that many. If you have a 1911, and own 9- and 10-round mags you can mix them and load them all to the same, lower capacity, but if you come to a match with only a beltfull of 10-rounders, you cannot choose to load them to only 9. See page 21 of the rule book.

Edited June 15, 2007 by RickB

[Gregg K]

You must load to division capacity, unless the mag will not hold that many. If you have a 1911, and own 9- and 10-round mags you can mix them and load them all to the same, lower capacity, but if you come to a match with only a beltfull of 10-rounders, you cannot choose to load them to only 9. See page 21 of the rule book.

I'm in agreement. If you show up in front of me with an ESP gun and all 10 rounders, you will load 10 plus 1 or get 20 FTDR.

[boo radley]

The rule is very clear. Division capacity for ESP and SSP is 10 in the mag and one in the chamber. CDP is 8 in the mag and one in the chamber.

If you have magazines that physically hold less, ALL of your magazines that you use in that match MUST be downloaded to be equal to your lowest capacity magazine. You can't mix and match mag counts. That's to keep people from gaming round counts.

ESP and SSP given all 10 round or higher capacity mags MUST load to 10.

CDP given all 8 round mags MUST load to 8.

Steve J -- that's exactly how I understand the rule. However, it's still confusing because the rule also states:

Competitors must use the same capacity magazines throughout the competition

I don't see how that means you can mix and max and just download, even though that's an understood practice. It seems to me that if you have 7-round mags, you must ONLY use 7-round magazines; not a combination of 7-rounders and some 8's downloaded by one.

IMO, only, of course....

I guess an 8-round mag downloaded is == to a 7-round mag.

[GmanCdp]

I have a Colt Super 38. The mags that come with the gun are 9 rds. I also have some Chip Mccormick 10 rounders.

I plan on using the Mccormicks with 9 rounds in the mags. Is this a violation or is this ok? This is for ESP division..

new shooter ??? only shot idpa a few times and this is a new gun ???

i would ask :how many 9 rnd mags you have ? how many 10 rnd mags you have ?

3 9rnd mags , then load them to 9

2 9 rnd mags and 1 10 rnd mag ? download the 10 rnd and make it the 3rd mag as the last reload

2 10 rnd mags and 1 9 rnd mag ? start with the 10 rnder loaded up and the next 10 rnder as the 1st reload and make the 9 rnder the 3rd mag as the last reload mag...

then after the match...decide which other mag you want to purchase to shoot at the next match,as a total of 3 mags loaded to division capacity........

use the others as a barney mag...i don't think i would want to show up at a major/state/national match with mixed up mags on the belt..

[Duane Thomas]

2 10 rnd mags and 1 9 rnd mag ? start with the 10 rnder loaded up and the next 10 rnder as the 1st reload and make the 9 rnder the 3rd mag as the last reload mag...

Can't legally do that. All your magazines must contain the same number of rounds.

[Jim Watson]

Well, don't tell anybody but I have done it many a time at club shoots. If I load 10+1 and reload with 9 for a 12 shot stage, who's to know or care? Naturally I abide by the letter of the regs at sanctioned matches. But for the routine stuff it is a convenience, I own many more 9 round magazines than I do reliable 10s. Now if Tripp or Metalform would get off the dime and turn out some dependable 10- round 9mm magazines as they have been advertising for the last several years, I would kit up and not have to worry about the bedroll lawyers as above.

[GmanCdp]

2 10 rnd mags and 1 9 rnd mag ? start with the 10 rnder loaded up and the next 10 rnder as the 1st reload and make the 9 rnder the 3rd mag as the last reload mag...

Can't legally do that. All your magazines must contain the same number of rounds.

yeah i know...but i kinda think like some other people here in the mid south...if it's the shooters 1st time out with a new gun..then it's fine by me to shoot with us...maybe the dealer didnt have the other mags in stock..either or[9 or 10 rnd]....so you said can't legally do that.. i know that and you too..but ....at a local monthly match...it's fine with me for him to do it...for 1 match...

i guess another way to look at it..maybe he has owned this gun for years and never even had a thought to shoot it in a match...then one day while cleaning out the gun safe he found his Queen.... ....i think the shooter in question should repost about how many of each type of mags he owns....

Duane ..i also just about have ALL that info we talked about in another topic..found some of my national match info[up till 11:40pmreading ] and i'll post it when i get it all together.....G'

[Duane Thomas]

Well, don't tell anybody but I have done it many a time at club shoots. If I load 10+1 and reload with 9 for a 12 shot stage, who's to know or care?

You?

[Duane Thomas]

Duane ..i also just about have ALL that info we talked about in another topic..found some of my national match info[up till 11:40pmreading ] and i'll post it when i get it all together.....G'

Thanks! This is something I've wondered about for years. Drop me a PM and let me where it's posted, when it's posted, please.

[Joe D]

You had better keep an eye on Jim Watson. I hear he is building a .45 STI 2011 for ESP. What a gamer!!!! BTW Jim, am trying out my 160 gr 9mm loads in Montgomery today. 790 fps is pretty rough on the wrist. Wonder how some of the old 200 gr LRN bullets will shoot?

[Gregg K]

After getting my gamer hat on and thinking about this a little I think I have a fix for the guys with 10 round mags that want to load 9. You have to load to the mechanical capacity of the magazine up to 10 for ESP. If you have base pads on the magazines just put longer screws in the base pads and thus limit the mechanical capacity to 9 rounds. I run 10 plus 1 in mine because I have seen enough Mozambiques, steel, mandatory head shots or 11 round stages to make me want to have the extra rounds but this may be an answer for those that want to start out even rounds and take the chance.

[richardschennberg]

All of my 9mm magazines have 9 round capacity. For my other gun, I have some .38 Super magazines that will hold 9 and some will hold 10. They are Chip McCormick and were designed to hold 10.

1. Is it O.K. to modify them so that they will all hold 9?

2. Other than putting in new springs that will probably put the 10-rounders back to 9-round capacity until they wear out, is there an easy but permanent way of making them hold only 9?

I actually plan to just shoot my 9mm with 9-round capacity, but if these two questions can be answered, it should resolve the issue for everyone.

[Duane Thomas]

No need to permanently block the mags to 9 rounds. If you're shooting a mix of 9 and 10-round mags, just download to nine rounds, that's perfectly legal.

[Jim Watson]

You can even use the 10s to start out at 9+1 without having to handle a Barney Bullet Clip.

[Joe4d]

now gonna fan the flames a bit, gun is Browning Hipower, with factory reduced capacity mags from the 90's. never had much issues with it allways started with 10 in the gun. Till one day a range Nazi RO saw me load and make ready and said hey you cant do that, fine I stuck another mag in and took my first shot and watched the magazine fall out. hummm I'm not to happy. Seems the factory mags while physically capable of squeezing 10 rounds in would not reload with the slide closed. And yes I let mags sit loaded, anyway low and behold the Hipower manual clearly states, Maximum Capacity 10 rounds "Including 1 in the chamber" so next stage same thing, cept this time I said no this gun only holds 10 rounds, RO argued no it doesnt, well obviously he knew more about the gun than the manufacturer so I told him to give me the penalty and I'll take it up with the match director. which I did. and backed by the owners manual got the penalty removed. Which leads me to the 9mm and 38 super 1911, all the factory guns list the specs as 9+1 capacity, no way you can be penalized for using a gun with the capacity specified by the factory.