Moving RWR

[solaritx]

I really don't see what the problem is here. The question is clearly what is cover, isn't it?

Instead of putting it into the RWR state, go to a more simple reload, the emergency or empty gun. Lets say you are shooting a CoF where you go dry firing at two threats from a doorway in the middle of two walls (slicing the pie like good boys and girls) and now need to move laterally across the doorway and down the next wall to engage and neutralize the next set of threats.

I believe everyone agrees we can't leave and go ACROSS the doorway while reloading, right? We are leaving cover with an empty gun. Why not? The threats in the room have been put down, right? So if we can't do a emergency reload across that doorway, is it not reasonable that we could not start a RWR while moving across that doorway? Why can't we start our RWR while moving across the doorway, again the threats have been neutralized. Why not?

I don't think there is an IDPA SO that would not give you the finger if you started your RWR while moving laterally across an open doorway. NOW, why is that any different than instead of moving laterally and leaving cover, you now make a right turn and move into the room or hallway?

That is the logic as to why NORMALLY one can not reload exposed to threats that have been engaged.

Yours

Garry N

[Sniper1Moore]

Moving across an opening with a dry gun is completely different than reloading with retention while moving down a wall.At least with the RWR I have one round in the chamber and I'm moving along a wall not crossing open doorways.I would ding you for crossing an opening with a gun at slide lock or RWR.An open doorway is not the same as a wall.Page 43 1st paragraph states that if you are behind cover you may move while reloading and I will not call someone on it unless they change the rules.Ken

Edited July 16, 2007 by Sniper1Moore

[RobMoore]

Lets say you are shooting a CoF where you go dry firing at two threats from a doorway in the middle of two walls (slicing the pie like good boys and girls) and now need to move laterally across the doorway and down the next wall to engage and neutralize the next set of threats.

I believe everyone agrees we can't leave and go ACROSS the doorway while reloading, right? We are leaving cover with an empty gun. Why not? The threats in the room have been put down, right?

I believe not everyone agrees.

If I just cleared that "room" I have no problem crossing that doorway and moving on down the wall while I reload my gun.

To me that is not leaving cover. Cover is an object between you and your threat. The important aspect of defining cover involves a DIRECTION towards a threat (otherwise we'd need 360 degrees of cover). Does the piece of "cover" interupt a line between you and your threat?

Without a threat, there can be no line to draw, so no "cover" can be defined. If there are threats at another array at the end of that wall out of sight, then anyplace behind that wall is cover.

[Gregg K]

This may be throwing gas on the fire but this is a quote from the rulebook.

"All reloads must be executed from cover (if cover is available) and

must be completed before leaving cover. "

From this statement one can infer that if cover is not available that you can reload in the open. Now we have to define the word "available" in relation to a COF. Is "available" 1 yard, 5 yards? It would seem that match directors are starting to define available cover as being anywhere on the stage.

[Jim Watson]

It would seem that match directors are starting to define available cover as being anywhere on the stage.

Actually, that is an official policy position and rule interpretation straight from B'ville. To wit, from the IDPA board:

HQ responded to my query. HQ agreed that the COF should've been designed better, but that available cover basically meant that any cover in the COF is considered available. The reload should have began and ended behind cover.

[GmanCdp]

It would seem that match directors are starting to define available cover as being anywhere on the stage.

Actually, that is an official policy position and rule interpretation straight from B'ville. To wit, from the IDPA board:

HQ responded to my query. HQ agreed that the COF should've been designed better, but that available cover basically meant that any cover in the COF is considered available. The reload should have began and ended behind cover.

+1

There are no more visible ENGAGEABLE targets ...=cover

i've seen tacticans at matches cringe and hold their hands to their head when a shooter does a reload on the move....

and ...i've seen paint markings on the wall showing where at point can you start and end a reload....

and i've seen SO's yell at the shooter to reload while SO'ing...

and ...i've seen shooters do a reload so smooth...that the SO accused them of useing a 17 rnd mag....

i like using the qoute"There are no more visible ENGAGEABLE targets " as cover during the walk thru...

[solaritx]

sniper,

You didn't read my post. The fact is that YOU CAN NOT START OR DO EITHER A EMERGENCY RELOAD OR A TAC-RELOAD OR A RWR WHILE MOVING ACROSS AN OPEN DOORWAY. It is the same while moving down the hallway, you left a position of cover and are now starting a reload AFTER LEAVING COVER to do a reload exposed to threats that may or may not have been neutralized.

As these are generally not reactive targets, one doesn't "really" know if they have been neutralized or not. In real life, I have seen more than a few dead men kill others before they actually died.

Pretty simple.

IMO

Garry N

[Airic]

LOL, I gotta feeling I started a thread that will never die....

[RobMoore]

As these are generally not reactive targets, one doesn't "really" know if they have been neutralized or not. In real life, I have seen more than a few dead men kill others before they actually died.

Garry N

Garry, if we all followed your logic that the cardboard bad guys lived until "unload and show clear", then we'd never be able to have alot of the courses designed and shot at many major matches. You can't possibly tell me that every course shot in IDPA should allow you to remain behind cover from every single target in the CoF even after they have been engaged.

[dirtypool40]

ok, one more try....

We have a disappearing target, activated by opening a door.

You open the door and THE ONLY THREAT IN THE ROOM appeares for two seconds then DISAPEARS FOREVER. Now we don't have to worry about scoring of hits, cuz' when it's gone, it's gone.

So, I rip open the door, engage the target, it disappears. Can I reload in that doorway in front of a completely threat free, asceptic environment?

Shouldn't I NEED to top off before barging into the next $hitstorm?

Edited July 18, 2007 by dirtypool40

[SMSI]

It seems to me that the walls of the now empty room are cover, whether you are standing in the middle of the room, standing at the edge of a doorway into the room or leaning against one of the walls. What difference does it make so long as there is a barrier between you and "live" targets?

If reloading on the move is allowed, then "cover" must include lateral visual barriers.

[racerba]

As these are generally not reactive targets, one doesn't "really" know if they have been neutralized or not. In real life, I have seen more than a few dead men kill others before they actually died.

Pretty simple.

Not so simple...

This is a GAME - not real life. You can't possibly expect competitors to react to each stage as if it was real life without the targets moving. If that is the case, nobody would be moving from the start position for fear that the threat is still alive. At which point is the BG actually dead before the competitor can move on the the other BG in teh stage?

[Duane Thomas]

Guys,

I see the tone of this discussion sliding slowly toward confrontation and dissing the other poster's opinion. Let's keep it civil. It's also worth noting that, while the discussion of appropriate real world tactics is a very valid undertaking, this is not the place for it. Let's limit ourselves to what's in the Rule Book, not how it translates into "real life".

[Crusher]

Guys,

.... Let's limit ourselves to what's in the Rule Book,...

Well I will add in addition to what is or what may not be in the rule book covering the "real life" engagement the "threats" in the "world of IDPA", I ALLWAYS ask the CSO/SO what IS and IS NOT considered "cover" suitable for reloading purposes within the stage.

I HATE when I "get the finger" and eveyone else should too.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Crusher

[solaritx]

First let me say that if I offended anyone by internet "yelling", they can contact me personally and we can discuss it.

To the moderators, it will not happen again.

To the group, do SO's in your area allow you to start reloads while crossing a doorway? If not, why not? Have you ever been allowed to start a reload of any kind while crossing a doorway at a Regional, State or National?

I personally in many, many Regional, State and National matches have never been allowed to reload while moving across an open doorway.

I understand the part about reactive targets, and I feel that this does have merit and logic on it's side.

Yours respectfully

Garry N

[Duane Thomas]

Always ask the SO. Always get away with, er, I mean adjust your technique to accommodate, anything allowed that gives you an advantage.

(Maybe that one should have gone into the "Everything We Know About IDPA" thread.)

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

As these are generally not reactive targets, one doesn't "really" know if they have been neutralized or not. In real life, I have seen more than a few dead men kill others before they actually died.

Garry N

Garry, if we all followed your logic that the cardboard bad guys lived until "unload and show clear", then we'd never be able to have alot of the courses designed and shot at many major matches. You can't possibly tell me that every course shot in IDPA should allow you to remain behind cover from every single target in the CoF even after they have been engaged.

I was the first to offer this so I am responding. The fact that a target is not neutralized until unload and show clear has nothing to do with course design. You find out it was not neutralized when you get the Failure to Neutralize penalty. That is what it is for.

The purpose of reloading behind cover is backed up by the penalty.

Another

Gary

[dirtypool40]

It seems to me that the walls of the now empty room are cover, whether you are standing in the middle of the room, standing at the edge of a doorway into the room or leaning against one of the walls. What difference does it make so long as there is a barrier between you and "live" targets?

If reloading on the move is allowed, then "cover" must include lateral visual barriers.

That's my question boiled down another way. We are talking about a game, you know, where we keep score and some are trying to put up a good score? It really sounds like, to be fair in "scoring" there needs to be a better explanation of this in the rules, and at least for now, for each course and from each SO.

[RobMoore]

The purpose of reloading behind cover is backed up by the penalty.

Gary

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I'm claiming that I AM behind cover...from the remaining live targets.

To answer Solaritx's question, yes. Most recently at the Maryland State match I was squadded with Donnie Burton and Scott Warren. I can remember at least 2 of the stages one or both of them asked the SO about tac-loading in what some people would consider "the open" or crossing a doorway. The answer was yes, so long as all visible threats had been engaged and they were moving behind cover from the remaining threats.

Edited July 19, 2007 by RobMoore

[racerba]

The purpose of reloading behind cover is backed up by the penalty.

So if there were no penalties...?

[benny hill]

I am seeing it again about IDPA scoreing & shooting. There is way to much gray area & very little black & white. When it is left up to each R.O. how they call a stage , no one gets the same calls. They need to go through the rule book & cut out all the grey area's & not leave it up to the R.O. how to call the stage according to him or her. We need solid rules to follow. The F.T.D.R. is crazy, especally if you have a pissed off at you R.O.

[dirtypool40]

The purpose of reloading behind cover is backed up by the penalty.

Gary

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I'm claiming that I AM behind cover...from the remaining live targets.

To answer Solaritx's question, yes. Most recently at the Maryland State match I was squadded with Donnie Burton and Scott Warren. I can remember at least 2 of the stages one or both of them asked the SO about tac-loading in what some people would consider "the open" or crossing a doorway. The answer was yes, so long as all visible threats had been engaged and they were moving behind cover from the remaining threats.

Great example and observation.

Benny, EXACTLY what most are thinking.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

The purpose of reloading behind cover is backed up by the penalty.

Gary

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I'm claiming that I AM behind cover...from the remaining live targets.

To answer Solaritx's question, yes. Most recently at the Maryland State match I was squadded with Donnie Burton and Scott Warren. I can remember at least 2 of the stages one or both of them asked the SO about tac-loading in what some people would consider "the open" or crossing a doorway. The answer was yes, so long as all visible threats had been engaged and they were moving behind cover from the remaining threats.

I have been a SO on stages with Scott Warren and other shooters that means nothing to me in a discussion of the rules.

Crossing a doorway while reloading is a PE by the rules. It is one of the few clear rules in the book. If a SO at one match wants to make that decision, he better stay on the stage for the entire match to make sure every shooter gets the same break.

The procedure for reloads is stated on pages 43-45 of the rule book. Whether you or I disagree with it does not make a difference.

Failure to do an IDPA approved reload will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction. Failure to do the reload specified by the CoF will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty or an FTDR. Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty. Tactical Reloads and Reloads with Retention are interchangeable. See glossary for further details. When no specific type of reload is specified, any approved reload may be done at the shooter’s discretion.

Malfunction Clearing Exception: When clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speedloader that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty.

Approved IDPA reloads:

Tactical Reload

Tactical Reload (Tac-Load) is recharging the gun during a lull in the action by:

A. Drawing a spare magazine prior to the ejection of the partial magazine from the gun.

B. Dropping the partial magazine from the gun.

C. Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

D. Stowing the partial magazine properly (See “proper magazine retention” in the glossary).

NOTE: Should the CoF call for a Tac-Load and the magazine is empty while a round remains in the chamber, the empty magazine must be retained.

NOTE: HQ urges course designers to draft scenario courses that do not require tac-loads or reloads with retention to be performed “on the clock”.

Reload with Retention (RWR)

Reload with Retention (RWR) is recharging the gun during a lull in the action by:

A. Dropping the partial magazine from the gun.

B. Stowing the partial magazine properly (See “proper magazine retention” in the glossary).

C. Drawing a spare magazine.

D. Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

NOTE: Should the CoF call for a Reload with Retention and the magazine is empty while a round remains in the chamber, the empty magazine must be retained.

NOTE: HQ urges course designers to draft scenario courses that do not require tac-loads or reloads with retention to be performed “on the clock”.

Slide-Lock (Emergency) Reload

Slide-Lock (Emergency) Reload is recharging the gun when it is completely empty by:

A. Dropping the empty magazine.

B. Drawing a spare magazine.

C. Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

D. Racking the slide or hitting the slide release button.

NOTE: The slide does not lock back on some guns. In that case, the shooter will have to rack the slide. This is not grounds for a procedural penalty.

NOTE: Reloads may only begin when the shooter is fully behind cover and will be deemed completed when the fresh magazine is seated and the slide is fully forward or the cylinder is closed. (See Appendix THREE – Cover) (my emphasis added)

Intentional “round dumping” to gain a competitive advantage will result in a twenty (20) second FTDR penalty. A good example is firing extra rounds from a position in the open so you will be at slide lock and thus reload on the way to cover. Courses should be designed with specific reload points behind cover in mind. Once behind cover, a competitor may move behind cover while reloading. If a competitor shoots to slide lock with targets still remaining to be engaged from a specific firing point, the competitor does NOT have to duck behind cover while reloading, if you are using cover adequately while firing it will also be adequate cover while reloading. Keeping an eye on your threat zone while reloading is a sound tactic in the real world.

It has nothing to do with the threat being neutralized or not. It just clearly states where the reloads must take place. It says nothing about the "Remaining threat targets"

I was given a PE 2 yrs ago at the S&W Winter Championship for shooting my revolver dry while moving and starting the reload before I was at cover. I took it, I deserved it, but I did not like it as it makes no sense to me to move around with an empty gun.

As has been stated, the game has rules. They are not cast in stone but they are there. If you play the game and disagree with the rules, be prepared to get the PEs.

I will be teaching a SO class this fall with some experienced shooters. I will see what they think about this issue.

There are many differences between USPSA and IDPA. I occasionally have a mental lapse and get the PE in IDPA because I use my USPSA tactics. That is part of the game and I accept it and just grumble to myself.

[Singlestack Wonder]

The purpose of reloading behind cover is backed up by the penalty.

Gary

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I'm claiming that I AM behind cover...from the remaining live targets.

To answer Solaritx's question, yes. Most recently at the Maryland State match I was squadded with Donnie Burton and Scott Warren. I can remember at least 2 of the stages one or both of them asked the SO about tac-loading in what some people would consider "the open" or crossing a doorway. The answer was yes, so long as all visible threats had been engaged and they were moving behind cover from the remaining threats.

I have been a SO on stages with Scott Warren and other shooters that means nothing to me in a discussion of the rules.

Crossing a doorway while reloading is a PE by the rules. It is one of the few clear rules in the book. If a SO at one match wants to make that decision, he better stay on the stage for the entire match to make sure every shooter gets the same break.

The procedure for reloads is stated on pages 43-45 of the rule book. Whether you or I disagree with it does not make a difference.

Failure to do an IDPA approved reload will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction. Failure to do the reload specified by the CoF will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty or an FTDR. Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty. Tactical Reloads and Reloads with Retention are interchangeable. See glossary for further details. When no specific type of reload is specified, any approved reload may be done at the shooter’s discretion.

Malfunction Clearing Exception: When clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speedloader that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty.

Approved IDPA reloads:

Tactical Reload

Tactical Reload (Tac-Load) is recharging the gun during a lull in the action by:

A. Drawing a spare magazine prior to the ejection of the partial magazine from the gun.

B. Dropping the partial magazine from the gun.

C. Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

D. Stowing the partial magazine properly (See “proper magazine retention” in the glossary).

NOTE: Should the CoF call for a Tac-Load and the magazine is empty while a round remains in the chamber, the empty magazine must be retained.

NOTE: HQ urges course designers to draft scenario courses that do not require tac-loads or reloads with retention to be performed “on the clock”.

Reload with Retention (RWR)

Reload with Retention (RWR) is recharging the gun during a lull in the action by:

A. Dropping the partial magazine from the gun.

B. Stowing the partial magazine properly (See “proper magazine retention” in the glossary).

C. Drawing a spare magazine.

D. Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

NOTE: Should the CoF call for a Reload with Retention and the magazine is empty while a round remains in the chamber, the empty magazine must be retained.

NOTE: HQ urges course designers to draft scenario courses that do not require tac-loads or reloads with retention to be performed “on the clock”.

Slide-Lock (Emergency) Reload

Slide-Lock (Emergency) Reload is recharging the gun when it is completely empty by:

A. Dropping the empty magazine.

B. Drawing a spare magazine.

C. Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

D. Racking the slide or hitting the slide release button.

NOTE: The slide does not lock back on some guns. In that case, the shooter will have to rack the slide. This is not grounds for a procedural penalty.

NOTE: Reloads may only begin when the shooter is fully behind cover and will be deemed completed when the fresh magazine is seated and the slide is fully forward or the cylinder is closed. (See Appendix THREE – Cover) (my emphasis added)

Intentional “round dumping” to gain a competitive advantage will result in a twenty (20) second FTDR penalty. A good example is firing extra rounds from a position in the open so you will be at slide lock and thus reload on the way to cover. Courses should be designed with specific reload points behind cover in mind. Once behind cover, a competitor may move behind cover while reloading. If a competitor shoots to slide lock with targets still remaining to be engaged from a specific firing point, the competitor does NOT have to duck behind cover while reloading, if you are using cover adequately while firing it will also be adequate cover while reloading. Keeping an eye on your threat zone while reloading is a sound tactic in the real world.

It has nothing to do with the threat being neutralized or not. It just clearly states where the reloads must take place. It says nothing about the "Remaining threat targets"

I was given a PE 2 yrs ago at the S&W Winter Championship for shooting my revolver dry while moving and starting the reload before I was at cover. I took it, I deserved it, but I did not like it as it makes no sense to me to move around with an empty gun.

As has been stated, the game has rules. They are not cast in stone but they are there. If you play the game and disagree with the rules, be prepared to get the PEs.

I will be teaching a SO class this fall with some experienced shooters. I will see what they think about this issue.

There are many differences between USPSA and IDPA. I occasionally have a mental lapse and get the PE in IDPA because I use my USPSA tactics. That is part of the game and I accept it and just grumble to myself.

+10

Benny, the rulebook is specific on this issue with no grey areas. If one has neutralized a target in a hallway and is still standing in the hallway, they are not behind cover, so no reload can be performed.

[RobMoore]

Crossing a doorway while reloading is a PE by the rules. It is one of the few clear rules in the book.

I saw nothing in what you posted specifically mentioning crossing a doorway.

I think the major point of contention between the two camps here seems to be the definition of "cover".

If you disagree with the definition I gave above as I interpret it, give me your definition of cover.