Moving RWR

[Airic]

Ok, Im shooting a stage that includes a hallway. At the end of the hallway is a threat target. I engage the threat target from cover before entering the hallway. There are no more threats until I get to the end of the hallway. Is it legal to perform a RWR while moving down the hallway since I have neutralized the threat at the end of the hallway?

[Joe4d]

Unfortunately there doesnt seem to be a right answer as the definition of cover is left to the match director, that's one of those questions that has to be asked during the walk through, if you shoot the same stage at two different places you'll get two different answers

[et45]

Joe is right and that is something that needs to be cleared up.Maybe some day IDPA will have a rule book that covers all the bases,until then each club will interpret the rules as they see them.

[bruce282]

I just shot a stage similar to that in the VA State match, it was a wall instead of a hallway. You pied the corner and shot the 1 target. When asked if we could then reload moving down the wall the answer the MD had come up with was No, it's not cover even though the target had been engaged. They do need to work on the rules a little.

Bruce

[Joe D]

I designed and ran a stage at our State Match a few years ago that had two halls. You engaged targets at the end of the first hall then moved to the second hall to engage more targets. The second hall was 90 degrees to the first. You could not do a Tac load moving down the first hall even though the visible targets were neutralized. Reason behind that was two fold. One you were not starting and completing a reload from cover. Secondly BGs could appear from the second hall.

I think folks don't apply real world thinking to reloads. I would never leave a position of cover without reloading even if all "visible" threats were neutralized.

The issue of cover and reloads is not hard to understand. A proper stage design takes 99% of the questions out of the picture. The rest are answered during the walk through. I will usually state "If you do a reload here I will ding you". Then I explain why. That way it is the same for everyone.

Forgot to answer the question. No, you cannot do a RWR while moving down the hall even though you neutralized the "visible" targets. The concern is BGs could pop out while you are doing your reload. The key words are "I engage the threat target from cover". Rule states all reloads must be started and completed from cover.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Joe D

[kdmoore]

I designed and ran a stage at our State Match a few years ago that had two halls. You engaged targets at the end of the first hall then moved to the second hall to engage more targets. The second hall was 90 degrees to the first. You could not do a Tac load moving down the first hall even though the visible targets were neutralized. Reason behind that was two fold. One you were not starting and completing a reload from cover. Secondly BGs could appear from the second hall.

I think folks don't apply real world thinking to reloads. I would never leave a position of cover without reloading even if all "visible" threats were neutralized.

The issue of cover and reloads is not hard to understand. A proper stage design takes 99% of the questions out of the picture. The rest are answered during the walk through. I will usually state "If you do a reload here I will ding you". Then I explain why. That way it is the same for everyone.

Forgot to answer the question. No, you cannot do a RWR while moving down the hall even though you neutralized the "visible" targets. The concern is BGs could pop out while you are doing your reload. The key words are "I engage the threat target from cover". Rule states all reloads must be started and completed from cover.

We just rehashed this. You are NOT going to get a consistant answer on this.

Anytime you try to infuse tactics into a game, they just aren't going to be consistent from club to club, and I don't know that anything other than basic rules should be "taught" during a game anyways (you know VERY basic ... i.e. Have a gun, the gun should be reliable, carry the gun with bullets in it) Anything more loses consensus and becomes more opinionated and less factual.

To make my point .. I'll play devil's advocate on your example Joe...

Why is the first position considered cover. Couldn't someone come in from behind you? I'd actually think that walking into a freshly "cleared" area to be slightly safer than staying put at the last place that you made a lot of noise, and that threats could be seeking to ambush. I definitely don't mean to preach RW tactics here, not the basis of this forum, and I'm not qualified, and I don't want the liability. I only try to make the point that by trying to interpret the rules by use of tactics is going to make a lot of sense to you, but not necessarily everyone else, and you might even be teaching a bad habbit.

Look, In IDPA, we KNOW where the threats are. For ANYTHING to be considered cover, it must stand between you and the threats. Since we know where the targets are, we know what is considered cover. Not where they might be coming from. I'm firmly in the camp of engaged targets lose their threat status, and would interpret the wall to be new found cover once the threat at the far end was engaged. Maybe, maybe not in real life. But definitely in the game.

And there is the rub, to reasoned arguments for requiring different reload strategies during a similar stage ... So yes, you should always ask.

[Joe D]

KD, that is why I stated with proper stage design and explanation during the walk through it is not an issue. I have been SOing and shooting IDPA since 1998. I don't recall it ever being an issue on any of my stages, nor any I have shot.

Don't be a "Stage Lawyer". That is why the USPSA rule book is as thick as it is. Too many Stage Lawyers.

Before you shoot a stage ask the SO about reload points that might be in question. Does not matter if you agree with the SO. He is the boss not you. As long as the SO is consistent then it is a non event.

This subject has been beaten to death. Time to move on Moderators.

BTW I don't see how loading from cover is ever a bad tactic. Leaving from cover with an unloaded gun is always a bad tactic to me.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Joe D

[Airic]

The concern is BGs could pop out while you are doing your reload. The key words are "I engage the threat target from cover". Rule states all reloads must be started and completed from cover.

I think this is why IDPA HQ encourages reloads off the clock. Unless you are inside a box, you could use that train of thought for just about anywhere you do a reload. I could still have BG's pop up behind/to the side of me while doing a RWR before entering a hallway.

All of this is assuming we are in a dynamic situation, with threats that can move unpredictably. But thats not the case. We are in an IDPA match, the threats are stationary. I've always treated a stage as "How I would deal with the current situation" and never worried about what "could happen". Training for dynamic threat situations is a whole different ball game and I've never considered a practical shooting match as very good training for that.

So yes, you should always ask.

I always do.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Airic

[Joe D]

I think some of us are forgetting that IDPA is just a game with rules to follow. No one ever said it was training.

[Airic]

I think some of us are forgetting that IDPA is just a game with rules to follow. No one ever said it was training.

Thats the sad thing. Some people think it is, and use it accordingly. When you start injecting the possibility of something else happening in a stage other than the targets just standing there and getting shot, you are starting to move into the training realm of thinking.

In no way did I want this to turn into a rules argument. I'm not real sure what I was thinking when I wanted a "definite" rules answer about IDPA. I always ask the SO anyways.

[SMSI]

This issue came up in our local match last weekend. I believe different ROs called it differently. It can make a difference. My call was that neutralized targets are neutralized and a visual barrier is cover unless otherwise specified, so RWR is OK. But then I'm easy and not an official IDPA RO anyway.

[Steve J]

I don't think this situation is unclear or not clear in the rule book. The problem is that it is not (yet) enforced uniformly. According to the rulebook, all reloads must start and stop behind cover.

You are at P1 and you have just engaged T1 in a hallway from cover at P1. You have to enter the hallway to get to P2 for your next target engagement. All reloads must start and end behind cover. That's what the rulebook says. After engaging T1 from cover at P1, if you want to reload, you must finish that reload before leaving P1. Period. That's according to the rulebook. The open hallway where there was just a target can never be considered "from behind cover" at least not as far as the rulebook is concerned.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I don't think this situation is unclear or not clear in the rule book. The problem is that it is not (yet) enforced uniformly. According to the rulebook, all reloads must start and stop behind cover.

+1 The threat targets are not neutralized until they are scored after the unload and show clear. The SO is watching the shooter not the targets.

Regards,

[kdmoore]

Why are the hallway walls not cover? Where in the rulebook does it say that.

Cover is defined as being visual barrier between you and threats (my opinion). As threat targets can become nuetralized (my opinion) the area between you and threats is dynamic, thus what cover is changes as the stage progresses (my opinion). The hallway becomes cover as soon as the threat at it's end is nuetralized (my opinion).

And that's half of the difference of opinion. It's only clear to you, because you haven't considered other interpretations than your own. Your opinion is fine, it's backed by your interpretation of the rule book. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that another MD/SO interpret that differently. They can and do, thus, just ask the question.

As to when targets are CONSIDERED nuetralized ... it's when you engage them. You score them to see if you are successful.

Otherwise, you can't pie the corner without exposing yourself to the initial target(s), and you can't travel from positions of cover after engaging targets. For instance, the example above of P1, hallway, P2.

[RickB]

There is a somewhat broad consensus that says if no unengaged threat targets are visible, then the shooter is "behind cover", for the purposes of reloading. For the example of engaging T1 from cover, then having to move down a "hallway" to find T2; if no threat targets are visible while moving down the hall to the position from which T2 will be engaged, an on-the-move reload would be OK (legal). Even if the gun was emptied on T1, you would not be "leaving cover" with an empty gun, because there are no threat targets to be engaged. Personally, I find that interpretation ridiculous, but by the rules, it has considerable merit. At our club, we'll include, "reloads may be performed only at the start position, and at P(position)2" in the written stage procedure, if we don't want people moving down a hallway with an unloaded gun.

My favorite illustration of the problem is the shooter standing in the middle of a four-sided room, with a doorway in the middle of each wall. If the shooter cannot see any targets from the middle of the room, then he is "behind cover", if the cover rule is strictly enforced, but, of course, the shooter is actually fully exposed through 360 degrees, and not behind cover of any kind. People talk about the difference between the rules and "the real world", but when you're shooting a match, the rules are the real world!

[Crusher]

Just ask the stage RO/SO it's easier that trying to out-guess them, less costly from a time standpoint too.

[Singlestack Wonder]

The rulebook is absolutely clear on this issue. Reloads must be done while behind cover, period. It does not matter if a target(s) has been neutralized. The reason for the rule is the concept that if one is in a defensive situation, they should not be standing in the open with an empty pistol. The only exception to this rule would be if a match has a standards excercise for a skills test and no cover is provided.

[wsimpso1]

Gamesmanship - I agree that we should ask if the MD considers the wall cover. I the MD or RO says "NO", you are done, you can not do a reload there.

Survival - The fact that you cleared the visible portion of the space ahead should not make you confident that you will not need covering fire in the hallway. I want a loaded gun in my hands as I run down that hallway.

I also like the Rule Book encouragement to do reloads off of the clock, but I have yet to see stages run that way.

Billski

[Gregg K]

I also like the Rule Book encouragement to do reloads off of the clock, but I have yet to see stages run that way.

Billski

I actually hate the idea of off the clock reloads. Ammunition management is a skill that should be tested. There shouldn't be any time outs during a senario.

[boo radley]

I also like the Rule Book encouragement to do reloads off of the clock, but I have yet to see stages run that way.

Billski

I actually hate the idea of off the clock reloads. Ammunition management is a skill that should be tested. There shouldn't be any time outs during a senario.

Well...The rule book just discourages tactical and RWR reloads ON the clock in favor of slide-lock reloads; it doesn't say reloads should be "off the clock." The rule book also cites "Statistics show that this happens in the real world"...(one of many references in the rule book that help explain the genesis of the schizophrenia with 'real world' vs. 'game').

I agree with the others about the cover call. Ask the SO, and hope that, if they're embedded, the call is consistent. The rule book is nicely unambiguous on this, but stages and the SO's are not.

Edited July 12, 2007 by boo radley

[Singlestack Wonder]

The rule book is nicely unambiguous on this, but stages and the SO's are not.

No ambiguity in the rule book at all in regards to this topic. From page 44 of the rule book:

"All reloads must be executed from cover (if cover is available) and

must be completed before leaving cover."

[dirtypool40]

ok, clarifying question; the paper is still "standing" perhaps you only "wounded it" and did not "neutralize it", I get that part of the fantasy.

But... Does that also apply to steel? What if, in an opening there's 2-3 poppers or plates / what have you. I know there's not generally a lot of steel, but if I knock the steel down is there still a threat for me to be covered from? Seems like this is another variable and again it's going to depend on local interpretation and MD / SO mood.

Any thoughts?

thanks in advance.

<PS: new MD at our local match, and I'm gonna give it another try. >

[Steve J]

ok, clarifying question; the paper is still "standing" perhaps you only "wounded it" and did not "neutralize it", I get that part of the fantasy.

But... Does that also apply to steel? What if, in an opening there's 2-3 poppers or plates / what have you. I know there's not generally a lot of steel, but if I knock the steel down is there still a threat for me to be covered from? Seems like this is another variable and again it's going to depend on local interpretation and MD / SO mood.

Any thoughts?

thanks in advance.

<PS: new MD at our local match, and I'm gonna give it another try. >

DP,

Target type and target postition do not matter. All reloads must start and stop only behind cover. If you have targets to shoot in the open, finish your reload before you leave cover, or if you start shooting the targets that are required to be shot while moving in the open and you run dry, you must move to cover before even starting your reload. Can't drop the empty mag, can't hit the mag release until you're behind cover. Likewise you can't move out from cover until the gun is completely ready to fire. That's all spelled out clearly in the rulebook.

Those are the rules. That's so there will be a standard that will apply to everyone for the sake of the game and scoring. Real life and what may or may not make sense in real word situations do not apply.

Reloading only behind cover is simply the rules of the GAME

[dirtypool40]

If you have targets to shoot in the open....

....Real life and what may or may not make sense in real word situations do not apply.

Reloading only behind cover is simply the rules of the GAME

Yup, got it. But let's say there's ONLY steel in an opening / hallway / cover gap. I knock it all down. Do I still "have targets to shoot in the open"?

I know we are talking about a rare case at best, I'm just interested.

thanx!!! ES

[Steve J]

If you have targets to shoot in the open....

....Real life and what may or may not make sense in real word situations do not apply.

Reloading only behind cover is simply the rules of the GAME

Yup, got it. But let's say there's ONLY steel in an opening / hallway / cover gap. I knock it all down. Do I still "have targets to shoot in the open"?

I know we are talking about a rare case at best, I'm just interested.

thanx!!! ES

Ok, I think I get your point now. In the original post where the shooter has just shot a cardboard target from cover then steps into the hallway, he's no longer behind cover and cannot reload while in the hallway. The same would apply if the target had been steel.

If you have two walls with a gap between them and a popper to shoot through the gap from cover of course, and you drop the popper and go to slide lock, you must reload and the slide must be fully forward before you cross that gap even if you've already knocked down the popper. Crossing the gap is "leaving cover" and you cannot do that with an empty gun whether there are targets left to shoot or not.

Better?

Edited July 12, 2007 by Steve J