Instant Beep Question

[Fireant]

OK you are the shooter and as you get the stand by the beep goes off instantly. What can/are you supposed to do? I know when I RO (I've never RO'd at a big match) if I feel the beep was too soon I stop the shooter before any shots and restart them. We read the rule book on the drive home last night and found the section about the 1-4 second pause, but not what to do if it's too soon.

[Micah]

The start signal should be around 1-4 seconds after the standby command. As far as what would I do? Possibly turn to the RO and ask for another start.

I can see this being rather dangerous situation that could potentially end up in an argument with the RO. The key is to be as polite as possible. Always!

[AikiDale]

Start shooting!!!!

When the COF is concluded you may try discussing the situation with the RO and ask for a reshoot based on the lack of one second between the standby command and the start signal but if you start the discussion before you start shooting you may get the reply from your RO, "The timer is running."

[shred]

If you can manage not to do anything, you get a restart. Tough not to jump though.

8.3.4

“Start Signal” – The signal for the competitor to begin their

attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start

signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the

competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume

the range commands from “Are You Ready?”

[mactiger]

I would not start shooting, and politely ask for a restart. The RO probably made a mistake, that's all, and may not know what to do about it. However, since the rule does state within 1-4 seconds, it's basically (not specifically, granted), REF, and you should get a restart from "Are you ready". IMO, it's the same situation as if you were creeping and the RO stops you from moving and restarts you. The RO basically "crept" the timer.

This isn't specifically spelled out in the rule book, but not everything is: use good judgement and common sense.

Troy

[CDRODA396]

If you can manage not to do anything, you get a restart. Tough not to jump though.

8.3.4

“Start Signal” – The signal for the competitor to begin their

attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start

signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the

competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume

the range commands from “Are You Ready?”

Reading this leads me to believe anytime I'm not ready, I just have to stand still and wait for the RO to confirm what my problem is...and then go again.

Or am I reading more than is there?

[AikiDale]

If you do not hear the start signal you are not penalized thanks to 8.3.4. If you are not ready let the RO know when he asks "Are you ready?"

[Flatland Shooter]

Rarely have I heard the buzzer go off that soon after the "standby" command without it being an error on the RO's part.

I'm used to my timer set on delay. Hand me a foreign timer set to beep instantly, you may get the early beep and a quick "hold on for a second, sorry" from me.

How should the shooter handle it? Typically you can cast a glance over your shoulder at the RO to which they will sheepishly ask, "wanna try that again?"

Bill

[Fireant]

Rarely have I heard the buzzer go off that soon after the "standby" command without it being an error on the RO's part.

I'm used to my timer set on delay. Hand me a foreign timer set to beep instantly, you may get the early beep and a quick "hold on for a second, sorry" from me.

How should the shooter handle it? Typically you can cast a glance over your shoulder at the RO to which they will sheepishly ask, "wanna try that again?"

Bill

I agree completely, but the RO at a major match blew it, he knew it from the look on his face, then would not fix the mistake. So, I was just trying to get a handle on what the shooter can do for future reference.

[Flexmoney]

Run it up the chain of command.

CRO>>>RM>>>arb

[Flatland Shooter]

I agree completely, but the RO at a major match blew it, he knew it from the look on his face, then would not fix the mistake.

In this case, first I would not fire a single shot. If the RO indicates the clock is running, unload and show clear. Refuse to sign the score sheet and take it to arbitration. Drag any witnesses along that you can.

Everyone makes mistakes. But for someone in the position of an RO to refuse to stand good for his actions, then he needs to be properly trained or taken out of this position. I can see this happening at a local match with an untrained RO, but at a major match, with that poor RO in charge you've got a stage waiting to get kicked out.

Bill

Edited May 7, 2007 by Flatland Shooter

[Fireant]

Run it up the chain of command.

CRO>>>RM>>>arb

Well we did stop at the arb step. Someting about the RM telling you sure you can arb, I'll be glad to take your money cause you'll lose. In their best grumpy voice.

[Flatland Shooter]

Well we did stop at the arb step. Someting about the RM telling you sure you can arb, I'll be glad to take your money cause you'll lose. In their best grumpy voice.

Sounds like the RM had his mind made up before hearing the facts. In other words, a RM that also needed to be retrained or replaced.

Sounds like a good major match to avoid.

Bill

[Jaxshooter]

Was this at the Area 6 Match?

[Fireant]

The match will remain unnamed, to keep from getting this locked down. I don't know that I'd avoid the match, but it just makes me wonder about some things.

[Nemo]

Sorry to hear that, Ant. Remind me to tell you about my story with an angry RM.

Congrats on your A6 class win!

[mactiger]

Timers should be set on instant, all the time.

The RO and the RM both screwed the pooch on this one, IMO.

This was a simple mistake, and easily fixed.

Troy

[JayWord]

Timers should be set on instant, all the time.

The RO and the RM both screwed the pooch on this one, IMO.

This was a simple mistake, and easily fixed.

Troy

I agree with Troy. No quick beeps, its unfair to the shooter and is usually the RO messing up. It is so easily corrected and should never, ever, get to the RM.

Please let the RO say the clock is running, that's a reshoot in the making as the RO is violating the rules. A timer running is not a safety issue and is not covered by 8.6.1

That's why it should say 2-5 seconds like it used to.

Jay

[Jaxshooter]

My friend, I think I would run this one by John Amidon without any names and include the reply you got from the RM about arbitration. It would be interesting to hear what he has to say about what should have been done.

[Flexmoney]

The RO and the RM both screwed the pooch on this one, IMO.

This was a simple mistake, and easily fixed.

Troy

I agree with that...completely.

Timers should be set on instant, all the time.

This one is about the only thing that I disagree with Troy on.

They should all be set on random delay that allows the beep to sound at 1-4 seconds after the standby command is given (and the button is pushed).

[ima45dv8]

I have to respectfully disagree with using a timer set to delay exclusively, Kyle, just because I can't stop a shooter who is creeping before the beep as easily as I can if the timer is set on Instant. While I'm trying to stop them to issue a restart, and the timer beeps, everyone gets....excited.

A shortcoming on my part I'm sure, but I don't like having that BEEP interfere with me interfering with the shooter's premature start.

"US10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the

firearm, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving

to a more advantageous shooting position, posture or stance

after the “Standby” command and prior to issuance of the start

signal will be stopped, if possible, and restarted. If the Range

Officer is unable to stop the competitor prior to the start signal,

the competitor will incur 1 procedural penalty."

================================

I want to add that I PM'd Fireant and asked if I was the wrongful party (I RO'd the RO's on Friday at A6). I started one shooter with a 'short interval' that was an accident. I didn't mean for it to be *that* quick (I rarely do anything under 2 seconds). But even as I thought of stopping the shooter my mind kept telling me it was 'at least' 1 second. Had they complained that it was too quick I would have likely offered a reshoot (before they saw the time or score, of course). I'm not out to screw any shooters with the clock.

I'm happy to report he said I was not the offending appendage.

[Flexmoney]

Mark,

That is the argument that I hear from others. I don't buy it.

Just open up those lungs and yell STOP.

Or, don't...if it is too late...give them the procedural that they earned.

***

You kinda make my point for me...with your accidental, quicker than you expected, beep.

***

Feel free to disagree, but I won't be changing my mind on this one.

Shooting and running the local Steel Challenge match really has taught me a lot about this. At that match, including the reshoots, each shooter can get up to 50 match draws. You are looking at 10x as many BEEPS (compared to our local USPSA match). If you run 8 shooters, that is 400 starts for the day.

Stuff I've learned:

- Stopping the creeping shooter isn't the problem that people think it is. A properly given STOP command...works. It over-rides any Beep that may come later.

- Shooters will learn the timing of the RO that uses the Instant BEEP. They may or may not do this on purpose, but it happens all the time.

- RO's...and I watch this happen...a lot...will end up getting in sync with the shooter...and in some cases they will actually hit the button in response to the shooter moving !!!

-

[mactiger]

Well, Flex, we can disagree, as long as you realize that I'm right.

Seriously, the reason timers have a delay function is for practice. The instant function is for the RO to use. As 45dv8 said, you should be the one in control, and since we allow for a restart if the competitor is creeping, how can you do that if the timer is going to go off when you, the RO least expect it? I can think of a couple of other instances when you may want to either not start or delay starting the competitor, and with the timer on delay, you just can't do it.

As the RO, you are supervising the competitor, and should be in control of the course of fire. If you set the timer on delay, then after "Stand By", you become merely a timer holder. Not good, in my book.

True, at times the RO hits the button a little early. No harm, no foul, really, as long as he stops and restarts the competitor.

Instant is the way to go, every time, all the time.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

Troy I see that we were posting at the same time.

That means you missed out on my enlightening experience and completely exhaustive reasoning.

How else could you come up with a different conclusion.

Instant is gay. Random Delay...that's the way!

(I crack me up. )

[JThompson]

I think it would be nice if the timers had a bit of logic that would let the RO hit the button again and restart the time cycle up until the moment the buzzer sounds. That way, if someone crept you could say, "STOP" and hold the button down keeping the timer looping until you gave the "Standby" command again... at with point you could release the button and you would again get your random start. It wouldn't be that big of deal to do and as long as the button was inert after the beep there would be no fear of killing a running time.

In this way, you wouldn't get that twitch when the timer goes off after having given the stop command.

+1 on random starts

Edited May 8, 2007 by JThompson