Heavy Bullets For 38 Short Colt

[revoman]

I am looking for any information on loads that use 158 RN jacketed or 160 RN lead. I am also going to order some of the X-Treme 147gr sized at .357. It seems that the .357 bullets will shoot better beyond 25 yds in my .356 barrel than the .356 bullets. The bullets I use now are .356 124 grain Precision Bullets and they are good up to 25 yds (1 1/2" to 1" groups), but out to 50 yds I cannot keep them on a 9" plate go figure. Any help would be appreciated.

[Bill Sahlberg]

I have shot .38 Colt Short in my 608 and 627 revolvers since 1995. The accuracy problems that you are having are the bullets and powder combination. My load is minor but shoots very accurately out to 50 yds. 130 gr Montana Gold RN .355 or .356, it makes no difference but I do use a tight crimp. 4.6 gr Universal Clays, 1.100" OAL and Federal 100 primers. 1130 fps This will cure your accuracy problems.

[Carmoney]

Hey Dean, I thought Doug had determined that anything heavier than 145-150 gr. starts to create alarming pressure with Short Colt loads. I was thinking he had confirmed that somebody blew up a gun with 158s in Short Colt brass.....

Be careful.

[DougCarden]

Here is what we now know definitively after getting the "twins" together...Dean's and My Short Colts.....

Dean was not happy with his ransom rest results and came up. I benched his gun and loads with the 124gr .356 bullets....not so good...

I then tried mine with my Zero 150 JRN .356 bullets with a .355 bore barrel. 5 rounds touching with the other 3 really close....about an inch and a quarter group at 50 yds off the bench. Same load with .355 Precision Delta FMJ 147s.....Circular cluster , about 2 1/4 inches at 50yds. At 25yds the loads printed the same, on top of each other.

Shooting my loads in his gun got better results but not good enough for ICORE and 50 yd standards......Now the question is why?

My barrel is .355, and his is .356. People sometimes ask why accuracy nuts use a bullet a size bigger for best accuracy, such as the .356 in the .355 bore. It is obviously a tighter bore and the bullet is squeezed through the barrel better. We got Dean some .357 sized bullets and he should be fine. The Hornady 140gr jhps looked like they would reload really well.....I theorized that by coupling the 11 degree taper(taylor throat) and the oversize bullet it would stabilze better and give acceptable accuracy. I was not surprised to see how the .355 and .356 bullets shot at 25yds, but was stunned to see how they shot and how differently they shot at 50. The groups were identical at 25yds, and different at 50yds. I have to admit that I have only shot the one load (147-150 Jacketed fmj type bullets) with VV 310 powder in the short colt, but it is soft and now we know accurate as well. I have loaded up some 125s and 115s as well. They shot fine on the plate racks up to 25yds, but I never did any reserarch on them.

When I thought the load was just good in the Short Colt, I then tried the two loads of mine in the stock 627 with the Ole Mo.28 barrel. Same results but a little bigger....150JRN shot about 2inches and the 147 .355 shot under 3inches. This is with a full .357 length cylinder vs. the Short Colt short cylinder. When you find a load that will shoot, it will shoot in pretty much anyting you have.

The trick is to find the load that shoots in your gun. We tend to want to just get a load from the internet or our friends, just load them, and shoot. Mark, who built the guns once told me of explaining an open gun to a new owner. He compared the Open gun to a Top Fuel dragster vs. an Ford Escort. You can put Gasohol in the Escort and it will run OK, but the dragster needs premium fuel to run impressive. Same goes here. For the best accuracy at this time is a bullet sized .001 bigger than your bore, and the patience to go through the loads so you can let the gun decide what it likes, not what we "WANT" it to shoot well.

Good luck!

DougC

Edited April 19, 2007 by DougCarden

[revoman]

While attending the ICORE Mid West Regional in Arkansas this year there was a competior who was shooting 158 grain bullets and was not having any problems. I was going to get his data from him before I left and like usual I forgot. I was hoping that he might see this and be kind enough to post his loads or someone would remember his name and send me his phone number.

Bill

I do have some 130 Rainer loaded up with the 4.6 UC and seated to 1.100, I have just not put them through the pace. I do have an array of bullets from 124 to 151 and all are either .355 or .356. I found some 160 gr .357 Meister lead bullets that I have had for ages and thought I would like to try them. The reason for the panic is that the weather has finally allowed me to get out and test loads and I had been using the load I described in my first post and with the courses that I had been shooting everything was within 25 yds. So I never realized that the accuracy dropped off after 25 yds. I am traveling to the ICORE Rocky Mountain Regional the first weekend in May and was needing any help I couild get. I will post results after this weekend.

[cooper_999]

Here´s a link to the IPSC Global Viallage Forum - there was also a discusson about .38SC loads. There was data shown from a Danish Shooter, Frants Pedersen - he made major loads with .38SC!! He uses VV N350 and 158grs H&N HS RN bullets...I´ve not tried it myself yet!

3,3 grs. N-310,

H&N 125 grs. roundnose .356

OAL 30,0 mm

Pf. 124

===============

3,5 grs. N-310,

H&N 125 grs. roundnose .356

OAL 30,0 mm

Pf. 131-132

===============

5,4 grs. N-350

H&N 158 grs. roundnose .357

OAL 30,5 mm

PF. 158

==============

5,8 grs. N-350,

H&N 158 grs. roundnose .357

OAL 30,5 mm

PF. 173

==============

6,2 grs. 3N37, ( does NOT burn clean !!! )

H&N 125 grs. roundnose .356

OAL 30,0 mm

Pf. 148

[DougCarden]

Jesus....... I will try just about anything, but make major with Short colt.......Nice to know that it was done, but I am not going there with my guns...... .

DougC

[cooper_999]

Jesus....... I will try just about anything, but make major with Short colt.......Nice to know that it was done, but I am not going there with my guns...... .

DougC

that was my smiley, when I read this data...

Edited April 19, 2007 by cooper_999

[hearthco]

Jesus....... I will try just about anything, but make major with Short colt.......Nice to know that it was done, but I am not going there with my guns...... .

DougC

Not to worry. Thats why S&W makes cylinders soft. Hard cylinders make a good

hand-grenade.

[open17]

Hey Dean, I thought Doug had determined that anything heavier than 145-150 gr. starts to create alarming pressure with Short Colt loads. I was thinking he had confirmed that somebody blew up a gun with 158s in Short Colt brass.....

Be careful.

?????

The 38 short colt case dimensions aren't THAT different from 38 S&W are they?

The old 38/200 Brit service load aka 38 Super Police loaded on the 38 S&W case pushed a

200 gr bullet at around 630 fps, for a 126 pf. That's using 1920's technology, out of

Webley and Enfield top breaks.

[DougCarden]

Open, you are right, and with the right "slow" powder that would probably be ok, but the Short colt is basically a 9x19 case with a rim. The problem is with novice reloaders that only have a couple of powders and when they try it with the fast powders the gun goes boom and it is a bad thing.....

The SW case is a bit longer and might handle it better, but you never know....

DougC

Edited April 23, 2007 by DougCarden

[bigsaxdog]

hey y'all.....cliff gave me some short colt brass and a 686 cut for moon clips to try for the iowa single stack/revo match, so i'm trying to find some load data. i realize YMMV, but..... just trying to start someplace and he told me about this thread, so here i am.... found some old lyman manual data for 9mm 158gr. lead and bullseye, will try it and work up slow, post some results here. got some data for the .38 S&W, looks pretty close. plus, it's cliff's gun, so what the heck!!!

[professor]

I'm making Major shooting 158 gr bullets with Federal 100 primers, and 38 Spl brass in my 686 6" bbl set up for moon clips.

With Meister 158 gr RN lead, it takes 5.5 gr Titegroup to consistently get major speeds.

With Rainier 158 gr RN plated, it takes 5.7 gr Titegroup for 170 pf. 5.6 gr would probably make major, but without much of a safety factor against going minor [like I did at the Summer Blast ]

[revoman]

hey y'all.....cliff gave me some short colt brass and a 686 cut for moon clips to try for the iowa single stack/revo match, so i'm trying to find some load data. i realize YMMV, but..... just trying to start someplace and he told me about this thread, so here i am.... found some old lyman manual data for 9mm 158gr. lead and bullseye, will try it and work up slow, post some results here. got some data for the .38 S&W, looks pretty close. plus, it's cliff's gun, so what the heck!!!

I don't know anyone who has made major with a 38 short colt, but for a minor load of 127.5 power factor I use the following.

150 Master Blaster .357 Moly coated bullets

V V N310 2.9 grains

seated at 1.175

When I crept into the 3 to 3.1 grains I started to get sticky extractions. This is the load I use for ICORE. But if you want to try and make major go for it after all it is Cliff's gun.

[whizz]

This is what a friend of mine uses for IPSC.

To the left 38 Colt, 200 grains copper plated Archipelago .357

To the right .45 ACP

The .38 Colt has a velocity of around 865 fps shot from a 6" S&W 686. PF 172 - 175.

Note the bottom of the 200 grain bullet 2/5 way down the .38 Colt case.

Edit: The powder is N350.

Edited August 27, 2007 by whizz

[fdkay]

Wow,

I don't know I would be willing to use 38 short colt to make major. I use Berry 125 grain plated bullets loaded to 9mm+P specs to make minor, i don't have my load data available, but one of my favorites was 5.0 grains of HP38, it was running about a 130 PF, I like the insurance when hitting steel. For my major loads I used 38 long colt and loaded it to 9x23 specs, it is very close. The long colt is shorter than 38 special, speeding reloads just a little.

I've actually pushed their 125's fast enough to make major in the long colt, although they don't recommend it, I now use the 158's for major. I find their bullets to be very accurate at a very reasonable price. http://www.berrysmfg.com/

[jasond]

here's one i got off of another thread, works in mine (v-comp 627)

starline brass

fed 100

ranier 158 rn (size is usually .357-.3575)

3.3 grs red dot

1.150 oal

gets me 130 pf, burns clean, no pressure signs and brass holds up.

i have heard clays works too, never tried it.

[10mmdave]

Please be careful !!

Unless you plan on doing some major testing making major is gonna be tough,

(I like that 45 length SC round though )

If you want to shoot minor then you have a wealth of data.

Now if you want to go to 38 special or 357 Mag brass then you may have some luck.

A bud of mine uses a 686 with 38 Super brass to make major with 158 grn Berrys

(much stronger case than a 38 SC) but then again his gun has been re-chambered

to accept super brass.

Good luck, you don't have much time before the match IIRC so you may want to go

a more conventional (safer !) route if looking to shoot major.

[bigsaxdog]

yee-haw...lots of interest....cool! tried 2.6 bullseye/158 zero swaged lead in the home chronograph high tech testing laboratory(don't ask!). got 690, but it had that nasty crack to it(no jokes!), so tried 3.1 american select, got 819, so gonna try that. american select and red dot i've been using in my 147gr 9mm loads, works great, so kinda goin' with that. major with that stuff is pretty crazy. wonder if the brass would hold up. did 5.7 power pistol/147 zero's in my glock 17, 175(!) pf, 1200fps, but it was nasty!!! trying to do this and get something minor w/ no recoil, maybe keep up w/cliffy. maybe try some clay's too. i'm not really into the revolver thing, been trying to do it with a 6" mod 19, and you just can't load it. load these short colts in this 686 cut for moon clips, clips kinda loose, and even i can load them......anyways, will keep up the reports...

[dannepang]

This is what a friend of mine uses for IPSC.

To the left 38 Colt, 200 grains copper plated Archipelago .357

To the right .45 ACP

The .38 Colt has a velocity of around 865 fps shot from a 6" S&W 686. PF 172 - 175.

Note the bottom of the 200 grain bullet 2/5 way down the .38 Colt case.

Edit: The powder is N350.

Wow.. I recognize my major load:-) The première were on a lev 3 competition, Sandaknallen in Årjäng (Sweden). The recoil feels great.. No problems with poppers:-) Thanks to Cooper 999 who have helped me a lot with advice!!

[cooper_999]

Thanks to Cooper 999 who have helped me a lot with advice!!

Best,

Sascha

Edited August 29, 2007 by cooper_999

[revoman]

This is what a friend of mine uses for IPSC.

To the left 38 Colt, 200 grains copper plated Archipelago .357

To the right .45 ACP

The .38 Colt has a velocity of around 865 fps shot from a 6" S&W 686. PF 172 - 175.

Note the bottom of the 200 grain bullet 2/5 way down the .38 Colt case.

Edit: The powder is N350.

Wow.. I recognize my major load:-) The première were on a lev 3 competition, Sandaknallen in Årjäng (Sweden). The recoil feels great.. No problems with poppers:-) Thanks to Cooper 999 who have helped me a lot with advice!!

Are you using 38 Short Colt Brass or 38 Long Colt Brass to acheive this load and do you have the over all length measurement.

[dannepang]

This is what a friend of mine uses for IPSC.

To the left 38 Colt, 200 grains copper plated Archipelago .357

To the right .45 ACP

The .38 Colt has a velocity of around 865 fps shot from a 6" S&W 686. PF 172 - 175.

Note the bottom of the 200 grain bullet 2/5 way down the .38 Colt case.

Edit: The powder is N350.

Wow.. I recognize my major load:-) The première were on a lev 3 competition, Sandaknallen in Årjäng (Sweden). The recoil feels great.. No problems with poppers:-) Thanks to Cooper 999 who have helped me a lot with advice!!

Are you using 38 Short Colt Brass or 38 Long Colt Brass to acheive this load and do you have the over all length measurement.

Yes it is 38 Short Colt brass. I think the OAL is 31,8mm. I check and come back.

[bigsaxdog]

158gr zero lead round nose, 3.0 american select, .38 short colt starline brass= 830-840fps in a 6" 686. ridicously soft, seems accurate, and the moon clips are so easy to load, "even a cave man can do it"! haven't tried it on the big poppers yet, but i think i'm gonna run with this for a while(cause' i got 2 lbs of american select, and i'm cheap!). still want to work up the bullseye load, though..... this short colt thing definitely has possibilities, recoils like a .22. thanx for the help........

[rwmagnus]

At this years IRC there were some guys shooting open 627's using Vectan AO powder and 170gr LRN Beaar Creek bullets. I didn't get therir load data but it seemed to be moving away fron the norm which wasa a bullet (124-158gr). Anybody use the heavy stuff in the 38SC?