Drawing Gun Before Lamr

[rtr]

Stage mandated gun start unloaded on a barrel. Previous shooters run has finished scoring, folks are walking back toward the line of fire, still in front of the line 10 feet or so to the shooters left. Shooter who is up is standing in the start box with me the RO next to her. Shooter draws gun and goes to put it on barrel, as soon as I see the gun leave the holster "STOP, STOP". Shooter begins to place it on barrel then puts it back in her holster at which point I inform her she just DQed herself because I had not issued the LAMR command, or anything similar to it, or any command.

My question is after I yelled STOP the shooter still moved the gun forward towards the barrel and then re-holstered it. During this the gun was pointed down range and not near any people, but there were people in front of the line of fire. So my question is should I as the RO have done anything different? Should I have physically touched the shooter and or the gun.

Bottom line what is the correct way to deal with this?

[ihatepickles]

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

The competitor DQ'ed them self, this was the correct call as they were handling a firearm outside of a safety area without being directed to do so by the RO. If the shooter wanted to arbitrate the RO's decision, they could do so on the grounds that what they did was not an unsafe act but since it's an example spelled out specifically in the rulebook my peanut gallery guess is the DQ would stand.

Unless someone was at risk I don't think you need to make contact with the shooter, a STOP STOP should be sufficient. If the RO wasn't situationally aware and didn't know if anyone was downrange then a bit of physical contact would put safety first and the shooter's feelings second, which is the way it should be.

Edited March 12, 2007 by ihatepickles

[North]

Depends. What type of weapon? Hammer down empty magwell on a single action is a lot different than on a double action.

You should have a "feel" for if any danger was present. If you thought she could hurt someone you should stop her, but if she just thought the range was clear befor you said so (and it was) then no need to tackle her no matter how hot she was.

[Barrettone]

Stage mandated gun start unloaded on a barrel. Previous shooters run has finished scoring, folks are walking back toward the line of fire, still in front of the line 10 feet or so to the shooters left. Shooter who is up is standing in the start box with me the RO next to her. Shooter draws gun and goes to put it on barrel, as soon as I see the gun leave the holster "STOP, STOP". Shooter begins to place it on barrel then puts it back in her holster at which point I inform her she just DQed herself because I had not issued the LAMR command, or anything similar to it, or any command.

My question is after I yelled STOP the shooter still moved the gun forward towards the barrel and then re-holstered it. During this the gun was pointed down range and not near any people, but there were people in front of the line of fire. So my question is should I as the RO have done anything different? Should I have physically touched the shooter and or the gun.

Bottom line what is the correct way to deal with this?

RTR:

I had something similar to this happen to me two years ago when I was RO'ing at Area 5. Shooter comes to the line, and begins to banter with me about his gun. Well, everybody has come back uprange, and it is time to get down to business, so I clear my throat and say OK...but before I could even begin to say LAMR, this guy has his gun out and is topping it off. I say STOP, and then inform him (apoligetically) that he had just DQ'd himself.

We have specific range commands for a reason. They are recited VERBATIM so that all know and understand what the appropriate action/reaction is for all of them. We simply cannot afford to allow deviances just because nobody HAPPENED to be in harms way at the time. Bottom line, you did the right thing. I might have physically stopped him if I felt there was an imminent danger to anyone, but usually, this type of thing happens so fast, that all we can do is roll with it.

FWIW, the DQ was upheld by the RM, and the competitor took it in stride. In fact, he had his son and father shooting with him and he was later overheard telling them: "See...that was a very valuable and expensive lesson. I wasn't paying attention with my gunhandling, and I got DQ'd at an Area match!" Kudos to him for showing his son (and father) what it is all about!!! AS IHP said, he could have argued to an arbitration committee that what he did wasn't unsafe, and I even told him that, but he would have nothing of it. He said to me "I had a brain fade, and I am going to take it like a man!". Gotta love that kind of attitude!!!

Hope this helps.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Barrettone

[Nik Habicht]

The whole physically stopping the shooter thing ----- you can't armchair quarterback that one. I see it as having real potential pitfalls, i.e. gun goes off and shooter or RO gets shot....

OTOH, if you don't do it --- maybe someone else gets shot. Not a call that can be made by anyone not in the hot seat at the time. FWIW, if it's not a shooter's first stage, and assuming that the magwell's still empty/the shooter hasn't yet loaded ---- I'm much more comfortable with sticking to verbal commands....

[Precision40]

Each situation being different, in this case, if they continued to holster after the stop command was issued was prob less than a couple of seconds. Prob by the time you thought about grabbing the gun it was already re-holstered.

In this situation you did the right thing. A DQ and a polite reminder that stop means stop was the best thing to do. The stop commands means immediately and now, not after you re-holstered.

[Flexmoney]

So my question is should I as the RO have done anything different? Should I have physically touched the shooter and or the gun.

Yes, probably....maybe.

Hard to say without being there, but the idea is to get the shooter to stop their actions for the safety of others.

Here is what I do to help prevent getting to this point. When I can, as RO, I like to get in front of the shooter. Physically square off, if need be. But, I want to block their access to the stage and to the start position until I am ready for them. If I'm in front of them, it's clear that it's not go time. They won't draw down on ya.

[Mick]

Sounds like you did the right thing.

I've learned after 18 years of doing PD firearms that touching someone with a gun (loaded or not) can startle them when they are very nervous and not ready for the physical contact. Although I have had many chances to make physical contact, I've found the verbal commands are best. I touched a student/Officer once and that was only to GENTLY guide the gun hand back down range from the others he was pointing it at. I've pulled hot brass off folks but nothing with the gun hand except the previous sentence.

I started ROing the year after I joined USPSA. In the last 13 years I have not had to physically touch a shooter for a gun releated issue. Just loss of balance or other minor stuff although we had a guy at the TX LTD back in Graham that knocked himself out cold on a steel partition. That was interesting! Loaded gun and all...

[Lee Bell]

Stage mandated gun start unloaded on a barrel. Previous shooters run has finished scoring, folks are walking back toward the line of fire, still in front of the line 10 feet or so to the shooters left. Shooter who is up is standing in the start box with me the RO next to her. Shooter draws gun and goes to put it on barrel, as soon as I see the gun leave the holster "STOP, STOP". Shooter begins to place it on barrel then puts it back in her holster at which point I inform her she just DQed herself because I had not issued the LAMR command, or anything similar to it, or any command.

My question is after I yelled STOP the shooter still moved the gun forward towards the barrel and then re-holstered it. During this the gun was pointed down range and not near any people, but there were people in front of the line of fire. So my question is should I as the RO have done anything different? Should I have physically touched the shooter and or the gun.

Bottom line what is the correct way to deal with this?

First, The shooter clearly DQ's herself. I suspect many of us find the "no handling" rule cumbersome at times. Nevertheless, the rule is clear and exists for good reason. Nobody can be responsible for everyone else, all the time. Each shooter must be responsible for their own compliance with the rules and accept the consequences of their failure.

As for touching her or the gun, that's a call that can only be made on the spot. Nobody got shot, the shooter, and others, learned more about the rules and the consequences of violating them. Results suggest your response was appropriate. Had conditions been different, appropriate actions might have been different. Only someone on the spot, responsible for range safety at the time, can adequately make that decision.

As for there being anything else you might have done, that's also hard to say without having been there. The shooter's mistake is the kind I would only expect a newbie to make. If this was a first time shooter, it might not be a bad idea to assign a more experienced shooter to assist her in understanding and complying with all the safety rules. In my club, it's quite common for one of the more experienced shooters to do this without being asked. It was done for me and I've done it for others. I think it would be a good club or good range policy to formally assign someone to assist new shooters. Had that been done, the same results might have been achieved without having to DQ the shooter.

Ideally, the stop command should have been given before the gun cleared the holster. Life tends not to comply with the ideal. Sounds like you did the best you could under the circumstances.

Lee

[mactiger]

Yell STOP. Never touch the competitor or the gun unless it's an absolute last resort.

I like to do what Flex does, namely get in front until it's time to issue the LAMR command.

Troy

[Shawn Knight]

Another reason why I listen very closely to the stage brief and what the RO says.

[AlamoShooter]

If you did anything less = that would be wrong. Its ok to feel bad for the shooter, but you did the best thing for the shooter.

As for Me - I don't load or handel untill I know the range is clear, = no mater what the Ro says

[Shawn Knight]

+1 I take a look at the range before I get to the gun! Always!

[BritinUSA]

Question: Although the rules are clear that it is a DQ, my question is this, was the shooter new to the sport?

If they were new then I would have done the STOP thing and as long as the gun was empty (ie. there was no 'real' risk of injury) I would taken the shooter to one side and explained the safety infraction etc. and then allowed them to continue the match, under close supervision.

If it was something like breaking a 90 degree rule with a loaded gun or dropping a loaded gun then I would DQ regardless of whether they were new or not.

I know it's not in the rules that way but I think it's important to cut the newbies some slack at level1 matches (if this was a newbie). I had a two newbies on our squad, one got the wrong ammo for his gun so I stopped him and allowed a re-shoot, another had a squib so he got a free re-shoot as well. Again this is not per the rules but its a level 1 local match and I think it's important not to come down too hard at their first match.

Just my 2 cents

[mlmiller1]

I'm with Britinusa on that. I know the rules are for everyone's safety & that a person needs to learn all the rules, especially the safety ones but if it was a brand new shooter, & she realized the safety hazard she created, I would also cut some slack. Being DQ'd from your first match would also likely produce a shooter that was DQ'd from their last match if you know what I mean. I say this coming from a small club, that quite often has newbies. If it was more than a level 1 match or she wasn't a first time shooter, too bad, she DQ'd herself & I would have to enforce it.

Of course, this is 20/20 hindsight & I am not saying this to criticize the original poster. He did follow the rules which are absolutely positively important for the safety of us all. I would have made absolutely certain the shooter knew what happened, though. MLM

[rtr]

Edit: I am told she has shot at least one and maybe more other matches. Based on that info and watching her shoot it appears she is a newer shooter having shot one and probably more than one match before.

Per the notion of not DQing her, I happened to be on the other end of a very similar incident once where I was the guy walking back to the firing line when the shooter pulled his gun before LAMR. That shooter was not DQed and upon asking around if that was a good call the consensus seemed to be that it wasn't.

When I took my RO class from Troy one thing he emphasized was how important safety is. And that consistency is very important too, consistency in enforcing the rules and usage of range commands. So other than the obvious that this is a DQ that is specified in the rules, I felt for the above reasons that I would be hurting the sport by not issuing the DQ.

Edited March 12, 2007 by rtr

[mactiger]

<snip>

When I took my RO class from Troy one thing he emphasized was how important safety is. And that consistency is very important too, consistency in enforcing the rules and usage of range commands. So other than the obvious that this is a DQ that is specified in the rules, I felt for the above reasons that I would be hurting the sport by not issuing the DQ.

Exactly so. Those of you who would not DQ this competitor are not doing anyone a favor. Being "cut some slack" on the safety rules causes problems down the line, because the competitor learns nothing from their mistake. Likewise, issuing reshoots for problems where no reshoot is warranted is not fair to the other competitors, nor is it helping the competitor in question learn what the rules really are. If you aren't going to play by the rules, don't play. Here's how I see it: new shooters need to be taken aside before the match and given a safety briefing, and possibly coached through their first match. USPSA used to issue a safety check card with a check box for "coach through" on it for just this purpose. At a level one match, I see no harm in this, as it can help with learning the rules and preventing safety problems. However, at no time should a safety problem be ignored.

Taking the competitor aside for a safety briefing, (without a DQ), after they have a safety problem is not a good idea, IMO, because then it's too late. Actions have consequences.

The main problem with new competitors not learning this is that they then progress to other, bigger matches, where, when they get DQ'd for something, they are surprised and offended that they weren't "cut some slack".

RTR did the right thing here: safety is always first, no matter what the experience level of the competitor.

Troy

I'm with Britinusa on that. I know the rules are for everyone's safety & that a person needs to learn all the rules, especially the safety ones but if it was a brand new shooter, & she realized the safety hazard she created, I would also cut some slack. Being DQ'd from your first match would also likely produce a shooter that was DQ'd from their last match if you know what I mean. I say this coming from a small club, that quite often has newbies. If it was more than a level 1 match or she wasn't a first time shooter, too bad, she DQ'd herself & I would have to enforce it.

Of course, this is 20/20 hindsight & I am not saying this to criticize the original poster. He did follow the rules which are absolutely positively important for the safety of us all. I would have made absolutely certain the shooter knew what happened, though. MLM

Being disqualified from a match should not be reason for a person to not come back later, if the DQ is done right, i.e., politely and with a good explanation of why the competitor can't continue shooting, and if the safety rules are clearly explained to the new competitors before the match starts. It's a learning experience; we just want to make sure we are teaching the right lesson.

Troy

[BritinUSA]

... Being "cut some slack" on the safety rules causes problems down the line, because the competitor learns nothing from their mistake.

False assumption + generalisation.

People learn lessons in different ways. I had a similar incident to this back in UK with a new shooter handling a gun before the LAMR. I took the shooter aside, explained the problem, explained what would normally happen but allowed them to continue in the match. He continued shooting IPSC for years afterwards without ever violating a safety rule or getting DQed.

I've also DQed the same people more than once for muzzle direction. Some people learn, some don't

Edited March 12, 2007 by BritinUSA

[Jake Di Vita]

If he were a new shooter at Nationals, would he be given the same slack? Of course not. As far as I know, we don't have a seperate set of rules for local matches.

[Kyreb]

Based on what I have read here, I am with BritinUSA.

This was a relatively new shooter and a female to boot. Odds are she will never shoot another match.

The pistol was not hot and nobody was swept or in real danger. I think a stern and serious warning (preferrably off to the side) was in order, but that would have been it. I would not have sent her home.

[IPSCDRL]

One of the hardest things you will do as a match official, is enforce the rules as written even when you wish to do the opposite. You are not doing the new shooter a service by altering the rules "because they are new" or "this is ONLY a level one match".

I HATE making a call by the book and having a competitor say something like "We never enforce that rule at our loacl matches." HUh?

What happens when Joe Local goes to an Area or larger match? It causes more problems than it solves.

As for how they take the DQ, that will vary from person to person, you cannot control that.

I DQ'd out of the very first area match I attended.

I had taken a week off of work to help build and man a stage for my local club. I shot one stage and then let a round loose during a reload. OOOooops. DQ, end of match for me. I taped and set steel for my squad the rest of the day. I then came back and worked as an RO on our stage for two more full days knowing my name would not be on the results. I was brand new to the sport having only shot a few matches myself before this happened.

Hopefully your local shooters will accept their mistake with good sportmanship.

[LPatterson]

Based on what I have read here, I am with BritinUSA.

This was a relatively new shooter and a female to boot. Odds are she will never shoot another match.

The pistol was not hot and nobody was swept or in real danger. I think a stern and serious warning (preferrably off to the side) was in order, but that would have been it. I would not have sent her home.

Why should the sex of the shooter have anything to do with it? If she made a mistake then she wasn't listening some where, some time to what to do when getting ready to shoot. I am politer to women than men ans say sir to some men but that was the way I was raised. Women are not nearly as fragile as you might think or there wouldn't be families with more than 1 child.

[Jaxshooter]

DQing the shooter was the only right thing to do. We have a set of rules that should be followed for ALL matches. Safety is the most important area of the rules and no exception should ever be made.

We have a new shooters meeting after the walk thru at our club. All shooters that have never shot a match at our club are required to attend. The meeting stresses safety above all else. We also mark the new shooters score sheets so the ROs know they are dealing with a new shooter. No rules exceptions are made for any reason.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Jaxshooter

[Larry White]

There are a few places you could cut a new shooter some slack. This is not one of them.-------------Larry

[mlmiller1]

We have a new shooters meeting after the walk thru at our club. All shooters that have never shot a match at our club are required to attend. The meeting stresses safety above all else. We also mark the new shooters score sheets so the ROs know they are dealing with a new shooter.

Now that is a good idea! If I were in charge at our club I would implement this idea.

MLM