Chriss Grube Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Why do we keep having these stupid discussions. Leave the rules alone. To damn many people with to much time spent "thinking" and not enough time at shooting. All this level the playing field BS next thing you know they won't want to keep score any more either. Just think of the savings to the new shooter no timer to buy, no ego to get crushed when the scores are posted. Are we as a group really stupid enough to actually believe that it is the gear and not the operator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cking Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Limited and Tactical, should mean that. So is it practical to run a beta mag? I haven't seen anybody in Iraq using one, nor any SWAT teams. For Open do anything you want, spend any amount of money. Cost isn't a good argument because you can spend a ton of money in any class. It is true that the better shooter will usually win even if slightly handicapped. So this is a game, and games have rules, should we have lowered the pitchers mound, should the basket be at 11 feet. It is just a matter of what the people playing the game percieve. IMHO, we should try and keep a couple of classes that allow the average guy to show up shoot, and feel like he had a chance without spending his kids college fund. That really all it amounts too. You have admit some things offer more advantage than others. In a high count shotgun course, the TEC loader makes you faster. 20 some rounds of 38 super with scope and comp, gives you advantage over a single stack shooting factory loads. So we should always have at least two classes, restricted and not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 For the record. I am in favor of a mag capacity limit OR the ability of the designer require a reload during a COF. I am not in favor of this to level the playing field, but rather to allow for forcing the shooters to perform at least one rifle reload on the clock with out resorting to a standards COF or a ridiculaous round count. Remember, we have the possibility to run all three guns in a COF here. A limited/tactical shooter could wind up shooting 21 pistol 45 rifle and 9 SG without a reload. 75 rounds! no reloading assuming no misses. That would be one heck a a round count match. Most ranges can't handle the stages this would require without resorting to 6 hits on a target. Sorry, I just feel that a reload has a place in a COF. As it stands now, I have to look at high counts or odd-ball starts. I.e., no mag in gun, mag located in a specific place. Why is it such a proble to allow a relaod to be mandated? This would in large part eliminate the round count argument. Carry as many Betas as you wish, you still need to reload. Nothing wrong with requiring this to my way of thinking. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 16, 2007 Author Share Posted February 16, 2007 So thanks Jim and the confirmation from Kurt the basic reason why I proposed this pole. The issue is not about a level playing field. And while it'd be nice to have some equipment differences between Open & Tac (USPSA is all I'm talkin' about), again, it's less of a conern than being able to stipulate a reload before the last shot is fired in a COF containing the rifle. My whole issue is that EVERY division can go through every course of fire without doing a reload with the rifle. To me it's contrary to a basic skill that should be tested whenever possible and unfortunately cannot given the (lack of) equipment rules in USPSA 3-Gun/MG matches. You can do it in IMGA by just stating it to be done, so like others, USPSA could learn something here. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory_k Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 how many of you are for the mag restriction, but against the production trigger pull? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 How many are for 40+ rifle mags, but against SG's with 10 round mags in Lim/Tac ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Reloads can already be required in standards. What is wrong with running a standard once in a while. There is no worthwhile reason to change the rules to get something that you can already have. Another way to get reloads is to use lots of mini-poppers (mr. brownstone) targets at long distance, (at least I'd have to shoot more.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glockster96 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I agree with Rich, Jim and Kurt that mandating a reload should be allowed during a match. I was going to delete the rest of my post after I typed it, but I had too much writing it.....be sure to read tongue in cheek. I propose the following rule changes be immediately implemented to the Tactical division to not only level the playing field, but so the division will live up to it's name and intended purpose. 1. Pistols: Only Glock 22's may be utilizedwith factory ammunition and factory 10 round magazines. Holster must be of the Safariland 6004 variety, and magazine holders must have snap closures and be worn on a genuine duty belt. No more fancy SV's or STI's, and my 6" fat free is definitely verboten. If someone is really good at shooting their pistol, the RM or MD may, at their discretion, break 1 to 3 fingers on that competitors non-firing hand to ensure a level playing field. This may be done at any point during the match. 2. Shotguns: The only acceptable shotty here is a 14" Benelli. No other mods may be made to the gun, unless they are modifications to specifically make it look more tactical and intimidating (such as flat black spray paint, attaching velcro, or attaching a light.) Maximum capacity for the shotgun is 6 rounds total. Shotgun shells may only be carried "Rambo style" in a large bandoleer. Don't worry about anyone loading their shotty fast - most of the good shotgun reloaders will already have several broken fingers from the pistol rules. 3. Rifles: Rifles must be utilized that are of a factory design, and manufactured by either bushy, colt or armalite. Others may be allowed after stringent review. The rifle must have a 16" barrel, a folding CAR style stock, factory trigger and controls, factory handguard, A2 flash hider, and utilize magazines of 20 rounds or less. Optics must be real world use optics, such as ACOGs, Eotechs, and Aimpoints. If a shooter attempts to use any other optic, they will be poked in the eye repeatedly with a non-sharpened stick smeared with dog poo. Limited rules should remain the same, with the exception that all competitors must buy a new, California-legal rifle with a 10 round or less internal magazine. This is to ensure that any competitor from Cali will have a level playing field when they come play our games. Okay, I will now go take my timeout. Laissez faire, my friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 no restrictions! don't limit yourself! lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 The only way for competition shooting to be a "level playing field" affair is to have the matches supply the following: Handgun, magazines, ammo., holster, and mag pouches. Shotgun, ammo., ammo carriers. Rifle, ammo., magazines, and optics. Then they could only allow shooters that are 5-10 to 6-1 tall, and weigh 170 to 190 pounds. Leave the rules alone. I'm having a blast the way it is right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Ok, I'm with Erik on this one. I have no problem with a 30 rd mag cap for Limited and/or Tactical. Why? It's not about cost or leveling the playing field. It's about having real distinctions between the divisions. Currently an open rifle and tactical rifle have very little real difference. Tactical and Limited use the same 2 of the 3 guns! (Of course, I think Limited ought to require a pump shotgun with a 5 rd tube and a Production pistol.) If the divisions are not distinct what's the point of having them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Ok, now that we got all that out of the way. I have removed all posts that have drifted. Posting Guidelines Attitude Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful. Please – no antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones. Please post respectfully or don't post at all. Threads or posts not following this spirit will be locked or deleted, and offenders will be warned or banned from posting. Please, for the life of the Rules Forum and the constructive input gained from it, participate appropriately. Thank you, benos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Ok, I'm with Erik on this one. I have no problem with a 30 rd mag cap for Limited and/or Tactical. Why? It's not about cost or leveling the playing field. It's about having real distinctions between the divisions. Currently an open rifle and tactical rifle have very little real difference. Tactical and Limited use the same 2 of the 3 guns! (Of course, I think Limited ought to require a pump shotgun with a 5 rd tube and a Production pistol.)If the divisions are not distinct what's the point of having them? +1 I don't think leveling the playing field is the reason either. How many true tactical rifles do you see with SWAT or military units that have magnafication? Leave the magnifying scopes for OPEN, dots for Tactical and irons for LTD and heavy metal. Is it all about how the firearm should be used according to the division??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Kelly hit the nail on the head. The divisions are pretty damn close. It is a problem in USPSA. Minor difference between open and tac. Limited, L-10 and singelstack pretty damn close. L-10 and SS width of the mag? This issue is due to our perceived need to make this sport all things to everyone. The reload issue keeps coming up, short of a true military combat action damn few of us even in LE will ever need to reload a rifle with a 20 rd mag let alone a 30. If you missed that much you are either dead or the other guy really sucks. Some people have this idea that they have to test every aspect of the weapon. The reason we don't use single shots anymore is so you don't have to reload. This isn't 1920 anymore. Test the shooter's shooting skill in a practical COF not what you perceive as something needed to be tested. This sport is supposed to be a fun outlet not a tactical masturbation for the mall ninja wannabe. If I'm facing 20 plus targets I'm calling for a AC-130! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 If I'm facing 20 plus targets I'm calling for a AC-130! I'm gonna be even nicer to PA state troopers now....... .....I've seen video of AC-130s...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 The 130's recently upgraded from 25mm to 30mm...gamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Nik, The way you drive you better be very polite and carry fresh donuts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 18, 2007 Author Share Posted February 18, 2007 Ok, I'm with Erik on this one. I have no problem with a 30 rd mag cap for Limited and/or Tactical. Why? It's not about cost or leveling the playing field. It's about having real distinctions between the divisions. Currently an open rifle and tactical rifle have very little real difference. Tactical and Limited use the same 2 of the 3 guns! (Of course, I think Limited ought to require a pump shotgun with a 5 rd tube and a Production pistol.)If the divisions are not distinct what's the point of having them? Kelly's my new favorite attorney! That's the other point behind the poll. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Nik,The way you drive you better be very polite and carry fresh donuts... I typically pull over before you guys get it into second gear ---- I'd hate to make you work.... ......and I never want to give you a chance to see me do something else wrong..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Late to the game, but yes, differentiation is what is needed. Right now there is very little difference between Open and Tac and only a scope separates Limited from Tac. The rifle divisions definitely need some more spacing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 So many addicted to rules. Stop the madness. Just say no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 I have an idea that J. Zumbo thinks we should have the restrictions on the magazine capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 If you want separation between the rifle divisions, someone made the suggestion......Open-optic magnification or not, and as many as you want, Tac-red dot no magnification, one only, Ltd.-irons. That is what I call good separation, and then leave the magazine restrictions alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 "Only a scope seperates limited and tactical" And only down loading magazines seperate L-10 and Limited.... Yep we need alot more division If only a scope seperated tac and limited, how come there are hardly any iron sight shooters, it should be the levelest, cheapest, easiest class around. I would suggest that a meer optic is a HUGE division between the two classes for almost all shooters. Maybe the linited guys are the ones that need more rounds! OKAY I will go with the flow ONLY if we also put upper time limites on rifle stages, especially the long range ones. I have been to MANY USPSA matches where I have seen a shooter go through 4-6 30 round magazines triing to complete a 300 yard plate course, because they don't know thier zero and or don't have basic shooting skills. 8 minutes of banging away realy slows down a match, and since we will now be spending more time on the course testing mag changes all the time, it only makes sense to limit the time!! Kelly used to be my favorite attorney, but I am starting to group him up with the rest! Limited should be a single stack .45 w/ 7 round magazines, any attourney worth having at the bar should know that! NOTE TO MODERATORS: Kelly and I are very good friends, this isn't argumentative, nor and attack. It is not thread drift any more than ticket writting in the North East is! At least this talks about capacity and limiting shooting..not just speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 What's "tactical" about no magnification on your rifle? I'm not the only one here (Afghanistan) with an ACOG on my M-4. I do know that none of us have mags more than 30 rounds (that I've seen) unless you're carrying a 249. (and even he's got an Elcan). Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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