Magazine Restriction In Limited/tactical 3 & Multi-gun

[uscbigdawg]

attitude and ego, determine wether or not they'll be back, not equipment.

trapr

Trapr,

Of course, but we can also be in a positioning of recruiting/partnership too. For instance, at my home club it's small and the matches are pretty straight forward. We get A LOT of first time and second time shooters. Unfortunately we don't get a lot of long term guys. In talking with some of them afterwards, they got intimidated and felt that their equipment and skills didn't match up.

While most hadn't come back, when I could get and sit down with a couple of them, they learned our classification system, scoring, equipment, divisions and places to go/people to see about improving. These guys have since stuck around. It takes a little nurturing sometimes, but it can work.

That said, level playing field out the window, let's just say that sometimes just 'cause there's a piece of equipment out there for a particular firearm, doesn't mean we can use it. Again, we restrict ammo in every other platform (pistol & shotgun) and not the rifle. Why?

Rich

ETA: For the record, I really don't have a personal stock in this discussion, I'm very curious though overall what the BE.com world thinks. I'm considering shooting the '09 Nationals or one of the Area 3-Gun/MG matches in Limited so I can use all the bullets I can get.

Edited February 13, 2007 by uscbigdawg

[Flexmoney]

I agree with "the magician" the cost of a/some magazines is miniscule compared to the expense of going to a large match. HOTEL/4-5 DAYS, GAS/1000MILES, FOOD/5-7 DAYS, MATCH FEE, AMMO/750-1000 RDS, CAR RENTAL, SPENDING $$/ 200.00-500.00.

Come on, 250.00 -300.00 for magazines is really not worth complaining about, its not a disposable amount, you spend it once, like paying for your guns.

We must have been posting at about the same time. You kinda make the point that I was getting at. I don't know that "hard core" is the right term, but I think you'd fall into the category of dedicated 3-gunner. Most of the current "big match" shooters are, likely, dedicated as well. I'm not trying to paint you into a label, but as a dedicated 3 gunner, you are going to see things from your perspective. It's not a bad perspecitve, and you are likely right. Spending a few hundred extra for mags might not be all that much if your perspective is to roll that in with the cost of traveling to a few larger matches.

I'm looking at this from a different perspective. To grow the sport, I think you need to plant the seeds.

[Gregory_k]

If your going to add magazine restrictions, they should only be as large as what the least state in the union will allow for a rifle.

Have to keep it fair.

or

8 rounds major, 10 rounds minor. I want to feel competitive if I show up with my M1.

[Lee Bell]

I agree with "the magician" the cost of a/some magazines is miniscule compared to the expense of going to a large match. HOTEL/4-5 DAYS, GAS/1000MILES, FOOD/5-7 DAYS, MATCH FEE, AMMO/750-1000 RDS, CAR RENTAL, SPENDING $$/ 200.00-500.00.

Come on, 250.00 -300.00 for magazines is really not worth complaining about, its not a disposable amount, you spend it once, like paying for your guns.

We must have been posting at about the same time. You kinda make the point that I was getting at. I don't know that "hard core" is the right term, but I think you'd fall into the category of dedicated 3-gunner. Most of the current "big match" shooters are, likely, dedicated as well. I'm not trying to paint you into a label, but as a dedicated 3 gunner, you are going to see things from your perspective. It's not a bad perspecitve, and you are likely right. Spending a few hundred extra for mags might not be all that much if your perspective is to roll that in with the cost of traveling to a few larger matches.

I'm looking at this from a different perspective. To grow the sport, I think you need to plant the seeds.

Said better than I could have. Your perspective has my vote. No point in two of us pursuing it when you're the better choice. I'll withdraw from this discussion at this point.

Lee

[bigbrowndog]

Flex, I try to see all perspectives. The point I was making originally was geared toward a dedicated 3 gunner, however, I still say "needing" a large capacity magazine to start shooting is not correct. There are alot of Open pistol shooters that don't "start" out with a "big stick" or use it in all the stages.

Rich, as far a coaching/nurturing new shooters. I agree it can be intimidating, for an uninitiated person to come out and see the things that are capable, by someone who practices. Knowing that you as a new shooter will not be competing directly against, GM's, or M's or KurtM is a little reassuring. Most shooters do not realize that they are in essence only competing against themselves.

Mentality plays such a large part in deciding who will come back for more, and who will find excuses to not return. Those that return, generally find it a decision well made, those that do not, can't be helped no matter what you try.

Leave the rules as they are, and work on the people. We don't need more rules!!

Trapr

[mcb]

If your going to add magazine restrictions, they should only be as large as what the least state in the union will allow for a rifle.

Have to keep it fair.

or

8 rounds major, 10 rounds minor. I want to feel competitive if I show up with my M1.

I think a Limited-10 3-gun division would be fun. But then again the biggest reason I got into USPSA as a sport was to reload on the clock. I still only shoot just L-10 and Revolver; the big stick magazines just take some of the fun out of it for me. I am sure I am in a small minority on this opinion.

Rambling

mcb

[JFD]

I think it should be limited to 30+1 rounds since reloading is a skill that should be rewarded.

More capacity should be restricted to Open, very similar to what we do with handguns.

[gose]

30+1 in Tactical, but allow any mags as long as they're only loaded to 30 like it's done in Production. I doubt it will make a big difference, the best shooters will still win, but it will differentiate Tactical and Open some more, which isn't bad (in my eyes).

Edited February 13, 2007 by gose

[Flexmoney]

...I still say "needing" a large capacity magazine to start shooting is not correct.

I'm not going to argue that point with ya. (I'm a Glock shooter...there is a lot of stuff that people 'must buy' that I don't feel is "needed". )

There are alot of Open pistol shooters that don't "start" out with a "big stick" or use it in all the stages..

You do realize the big difference there, right ? Big stick or not...the Open pistol shooter isn't getting through a large field course without the reload all that often. You are kinda comparing 20 round mags to 30 round mags...which will be used in stages with up to 32 rounds. That is a lot different than the AR's, which can have...what...an extra 8 - 68 rounds over the required number of shots on a stage ?

Changing the rule isn't going to hurt us in this case (I'm usually not big on changing rules). The change would sit well with the new guys. The dedicated 3-gunners...well, with the current state of affairs, each match you go to might have a different set of rules already.

Just something to think on...I doubt we see any of this go anywhere.

[No.343]

I am probably not qualified to discuss this topic since I am a 3 gun beginer, but I think that the reason why most people prefer IMGA to USPSA is because there are too many rules right now. I don't think that adding more rules is going to increase participation at the grass root level. You either get bit by the bug or you don't. Perhaps there are better places to concentrate our efforts.

[bub8889]

I'm just getting into the 3 gun realm and don't know a whole lot. That said, I don't see how limiting mag capacity for the sake of the casual shooter/don't wanna pay-to-player's/ newbies is going to help all that much and it's not really fair to everyone else.

As a newbie I know 1 thing, I'm gonna get my azz kicked. It's doesn't matter if you let me use a mini gun, wether or not I have to reload I'm still gonna get my azz kicked competing against 99% of the people on this forum. To get "competitive" I'm gonna need pratice and more pratice. Limiting what others can use just so i can think I can be competitive isn't gonna make me better.

Yes, matches will be intimidating but that goes with being new. It's no different than anything else competive. The better person is gonna win, not just because of his better equipment but because he/she's has more experience and is just plan better. If any Joe Shooter could just show up and win his 1st time it wouldn't be any fun. The people mentioned that were too intimidated or felt they couldn't compete and stopped participating are usually the " I should be able to win just because I showed" or sore loser type so if they don't win right away and don't feel they should have to pratice so they quit. These are not usually the best sportsmen and all around type of person that you want promoting the sport.

I've spent several hours searching this site for various information and learned a lot. In that time I've learned that this KURTM person is very good and i hope i don't offend him by using him here.

Now I'm new and KURTM has years of experience, making him reload doing a match is going to add maybe 1-2 seconds at the very most to a very good time and score. Now for me a reload will add 3-4 second to a slow time and a bad score. If neither of us has to reload I still have a slow time and a bad score compared to his great time and great score. So where does the making every1 reload really the newbie all that much?

Just my .02

[Flexmoney]

It makes you have to learn how to reload better.

Now...if you can figure out what equipment to buy...you can go the whole match without doing a reload. That is fine and fun and all...especially if you are mostly out to blast away. But, I enjoy the competitive tests we get in competition shooting. Reloading the AR in a field course is a skill worth testing, IMO.

[bub8889]

I agree it will make you learn to reload faster, speed is gained with pratice.

You can limit all you want but it doesn't make a newbie better only pratice does that. Unless you limit certain shooters to 1 arm and 1 leg, that may help lol

If you ban Beta's what do you do in 5yrs when the dedicated shooters "master" the reload and intimidate the newguy? Do you lower mag capacity to 10?

[mlmiller1]

No one that is against the round restriction has answered the question of why if we have mag limits in pistol, round limits in shotgun, why shouldn't we have round limits on the AR? Anyone? I'm in favor of a restriction but it really doesn't matter much to me. I'm curious though why no one is asking to have the limits removed from the pistol & shotgun so there would be less rules. If more rules is bad, & less rules is good, why not? HMMM. MLM

[Jim Norman]

A 30 round limit is a good thing. As tohers have have said, it makes more about the shooting. yes, we can test your ability to reload in a Standards COF, so? A field course, where you have to PLAN where to reload as a part of breaking down the stage is a skill we all practice in Limited, Limited-10, production and certainly in Revolver. Why is it so bas in Rifle? We limit the round count in L10, Production, Revolver and Shotgun. We have magazine length limits in Open and Limited.

Why is rifle sacred? If I bring a belt fed and load 200 rounds should that be legal in Limited and Tactical?

I am all in favor of a Minor 30, Major 20 round limitation in Limited and Tactical. Open, If it will feed, run it.

As to the concern about those voting here and participation, I shoot Multi-gun locally, I shoot outlaw multi-gun and I run a USPSA multi-gun.

Jim Norman

[Religious Shooter]

Now I'm new and KURTM has years of experience, making him reload doing a match is going to add maybe 1-2 seconds at the very most to a very good time and score. Now for me a reload will add 3-4 second to a slow time and a bad score. If neither of us has to reload I still have a slow time and a bad score compared to his great time and great score. So where does the making every1 reload really the newbie all that much?

Just my .02

You are comparing yourself to one of the best shooter's on the planet... I think that's where your mistake is.

Compare yourself to a person at the same level (whatever that is) that you are at. And then give that person a Beta... and you can only have 30 rounders.

Changes are that person is going to beat you. Did he beat you on skill? Or did he beat you because he had a Beta? ... and you didn't?

[bigbrowndog]

The reason, I believe no one is asking to remove round limits from current divisions is because, like anything else................once you've given that right up, its gone!!! the chance of overturning/throwing out an existing rule is much like, getting PETA to change its mind about its beliefs. We've gotten used to having the limit there, it doesn't make it right, it just makes it accustomed too. Currently there are no limits for rifle, and as such I feel we shouldn't give something up, because if at a later time it is realized that it was a bad idea, we will pretty much be screwed, because by then people will be accustomed to it being that way!!!!!!!!

Have you ever tried negotiating a contract with a government entity, once you give something up................its gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! whatever you traded for that right had better be worth it, because you are not getting it back, UNLESS, you wind up with something that they want MORE than what you already gave up. Which rarely happens.

Flex, I think looking at RIFLE the same way we look at PISTOL, is what has caused this whole discussion. They are not the same, the skill sets that matter most in pistol, IMO economy of motion, accuracy, occasionally reloads(standards). Rifle, accuracy, knowing your trajectory. Shotgun, reloads, reloads, reloads.

I also shoot Glocks(production), I don't feel concerned about reloads, near as much as I do accuracy, and economy of motion, when it comes to Production. (Rifle) The amount of time lost doing a good reload compared to a slow reload, is nothing compared to having to take an extra shot at long distance targets everytime because you don't know your trajectory.

One extra shot at a long target takes about 2-3secs, per shot, per target. That equals the time for one reload. So............knowing your zero/trajectory is of much more importance.

Trapr

Kurt has beaten me and I have beaten Kurt, I would say that on any given day we are each other competition, Kurt would agree, I believe. He has beaten me using 30/45 round mags when I had a BETA??????????????

Jim, if you want to carry a belt fed in limited, I believe you will place lower at the end of the match, than would if you had chosen wisely.

.

Edited February 14, 2007 by bigbrowndog

[bub8889]

You are comparing yourself to one of the best shooter's on the planet... I think that's where your mistake is.

Compare yourself to a person at the same level (whatever that is) that you are at. And then give that person a Beta... and you can only have 30 rounders.

Changes are that person is going to beat you. Did he beat you on skill? Or did he beat you because he had a Beta? ... and you didn't?

The main idea of the topic is to limit mag capacity so NEWBIES can feel less intimidated and feel more competitive.

It was kind of my point to compare myself to a top shooter. Unless you put him on crutches he's still gonna intimidate me because he's good and he's still gonna beat me by a LOT no matter what you limit him to.

If I'm Joe New Shooter with 30's shooting against Johnny New Shooter with a Beta, yeah he's prolly gonna beat me but you have to look at the skill level. We're on try not to shoot yourself in the foot level, at this level I just feel that pratice, experience and skill will quickly make me competitive with Johnny.

[Gregory_k]

Feelings should never be a reason to make rules in this sport. What is next rules based on looks?

[Mick]

My two cents......

I got into this GAME to improve my shooting skills for work.

Yes, I've been a COP since 1980. This game goes way beyond the skill level of the average COP! I have enjoyed it greatly but when I when to my first USPSA match in the 80s before there were divisions I used my factory sighted Colt 1911 .45 with 7 round mags against the then-new .38 Super 10 round compensated and optical sighted pistols. Those were game guns and have evolved like everything else. 50 yard standards were tough until I bought the right equipment but that original 7+1 Colt was a great street gun.

Look how L-10, Single stack, and Production have grown. People want a realistic game to shoot with their everyday guns. My Colt "Tactical A3" 16" heavy barrel 1/9" gun is a great "Patrol Rifle" but I wouldn't put a Beta mag on it for anything at work. I am forced to use 30 round mags otherwise I would only use 20 round mags for the ease of getting it in and out of a vehicle and just better manueverability. Try keeping an extra 30 in your back pocket as opposed to a 20 while you run around or drive. I shoot LTD because it fits me. I like Tactical because I need an optical sight now for my older eyes.

If I wanted to run wide open like Star Wars I would shoot OPEN. Some of my guys coming back from a war zone state the 30s are what is right. Anything longer or bigger gets in the way and may keep you from getting low or behind cover.

Sure this is a game, but there are differences that make the divisions have a valid meaning!

Tactical and LTD get 30+1...

[Bear1142]

I'm for 30 rounds in Limited and Tactical.

Sorry, I just am.

Erik

[TRUBL]

ya know know, excpet for maybe a std exercise, which USPSA would do for a rifle stage. There is really no advantage to having anything more than a 30 round mag. For the most part, in a rifle stage, there is plenty of time for a relaod.....plenty of running time. That being said.....if someone wants to take a chance on a beta, let them.

For the most part......the 20's and 30's are pretty darn close to being 100% reliable. As you go bigger, you are takin a chance. You have a 45 rounder that is 100%...cool, use it. You have a beta that is 100%......liar

Dont go posting to have the AD's change the rules for mag capacity....it is really a non issue for the rifle. i mean, at most what are we talking about here.....ONE mag change versus none??? Couple that with how many stages we've ever shot that it is critical, again....it becomes a non issue.

The higher cap mags......take a lot of maintainence to keep running good and if you don't take care of them, they WILL mess up on ya and force you to make a mag change where you really dont want to. But the guys with the 20's and 30's, have already figured out just where they are gonna do a mag change.

[LPatterson]

I don't really have a dog in this hunt because I shoot very little 3 gun. I voted for the mag limit because it is a limited/tactical division. There are mag limits for every pistol division and shell limits for shotgun so WHY NOT for rifle. There is nothing stopping you from declaring your equipment Open and using a 100 round mag except that you want an advantage over people less fortunate (low income).

[Shawn Knight]

20s and 30s is a good idea. we need to practice AR reloads once in a while anyway. if those people don't want to reload they can go over to open!

[Mick]

For the most part......the 20's and 30's are pretty darn close to being 100% reliable. As you go bigger, you are takin a chance. You have a 45 rounder that is 100%...cool, use it. You have a beta that is 100%......liar

I used to think that until I saw Betas working well theses days...I still don't want one.

The higher cap mags......take a lot of maintainence to keep running good and if you don't take care of them, they WILL mess up on ya and force you to make a mag change where you really dont want to. But the guys with the 20's and 30's, have already figured out just where they are gonna do a mag change.

YEP!!!

+1