Still No Respect

[hopalong]

Per the latest issue of Front sight (Jan/Feb 2007)

A five double sided page article for the Two Venues of the USPSA National Championships. One mention of 33 shooters in Revolver division (pg 36) and one paragraph about the revolver division race (page 40) with it saying Jerry won again and telling about Nils.

Not that having the most ever participants in Revolver division, and the closest race with Jerry ever and 2 of the 3 only (at the time) GMs, and the most Master revolver shooters ever gathered in one spot might be of interest to any one but more revolver shooters, but what do I know?

As a division, the lack of respect will continue until the numbers increase and we can give Jerry some real competition (No disrespect Nils, you deserve your GM and the 2nd) but with 8 % difference between Jerry and Nils that was the biggest difference af ANY of the 5 divisions.........and that one that is not even a division but has it's own Nationals.

So what do we do????

For more numbers, go out and get one more revolver shooter in your close proximity.

To give Jerry some competition...........Practice dilligently, and when He's not looking we'll move his sights!

I know I dropped the the ball last year as I shot less, and practiced none at all prior to the Nationals. Hopefully work and other things that got in the way last year will not this year.

With Limited and Production being at the same time as the USPSA Revolver Nationals at Tulsa in 2007 we as a division are still added as an afterthought and will continue to be as long as we remain the "Oh yeah, there were some revolver shooters there.......and Jerry won" division.

Now we have until probably June or July to get ready to get on the list for a slot if you haven't already earned one..................We know the match dates, put them on your schedule( I already have it off )

See you there, and somewhere in between before hand.

Hopalong

BTW.

If the ICORE, IRC can get over 200 shooters easily, why can't we get at least 50 to 75 at the USPSA Nationals???? Think about it...................

[Carmoney]

Yeah, Hop, I kinda felt the same way about that article. I was glad they at least gave Nils some good press--that truly was the big story at the '06 Nationals--but they didn't even bother to include a single photo of any of the Revolver guys. Hopefully the next issue of Front Sight will feature Dave Williams' article on our record-setting Iowa Revolver match. I have previewed the piece, and it's a great read!

Our next P.R. move is to get somebody to author an article for American Handgunner about IPSC/USPSA Revolver Division! That could really stir up some new interest! Remember, Roy Huntington likes wheelguns--I'll bet he'd be pleased to buy a good article with a nice photo package included. (Great photos sell gun articles.....) And when I say interest, I mean both interest from new shooters and from sponsors. True industry sponsorship is one of the biggest reasons the IRC has been so successful. Say whatever you want--prize tables do matter. (Oops--there's that little mercenary that lives inside my head coming out again....)

[aerosigns]

Did anyone happen to notice the minutes of the BOD, concerning Mike Voight's comments on the Nationals. Among all of the other things he had to talk about, he specifically mentioned the largest Revo attendance ever.

So Mike is bringing up our 'name' in the right places as well.

[Flexmoney]

Somebody should host a stand alone Revolver Nationals ?

[Viggen]

All right, not much mention in the FS magazine - it's OK.

We are in a building phase. Finally, we are in a building phase. Our Division is a direct challange, it has a large skill set, certainly not as easy as a bottomfeeder division(pick one).

What to do?

Do the same thing Nils and Mike and John and Cliff and Dan and and everybody at the Nationals did. Shoot it like it's a game that is winnable and lay down your best with the assets you can bring to the table.

Jerry is a professional shooter, the only one in the revo world. Everybody else carries their own water. Not taking anything away from Jerry but let's admit that constant shooting and more ammo and time to practice are what wins at the big name matches, as well as the small ones.

Winning at the Nationals and at any of the Area matches is doable . Take a look at the videos. Break down what you do. Look at your splits in comparison to the other shooters.

How many revolver guys actually know their averge split times. How many know where they are when it comes to reliable reloads. How about transitions - target to target?

If we are going to imporove we as individuals have to break down the aspects of our game the same way that the "real" shooters in the bottomfeeder divisions do. A lot of us don't understand or want to put in the effort to play this game at a high level. It takes work.

This is a great Division. It is going to be where people come when they get bored with the hozomatics and want a bit of a challange.

And ya, I love ICORE too.

[lynn jones]

you know of course, that a revolver shooter could have written an aritcle and submitted it to the front sight magazine.

lynn

[38superman]

Obviously, wheelgunners are always on a mission to recruit for and to promote their division.

The strategy Hop suggests is more of the same until others start to take notice.

I agree that the strong showing at the Nationals deserves more recognitition.

Perhaps more exposure in Front Sight and other forums would make recruiting and promotion easier.

More shooters should mean more recognition, more recognition should mean more shooters.

Tough to get either one without the other. It's catch 22.

My suggestion would be to find someone in the ranks of the round gun and write your own article.

If it is done well and submitted to FS I'm sure it will find it's way into print.

You could petition USPSA to split off the Rev Nationals into its own event.

I expect it to be a tough sell.

It takes addtional effort and resources to put on another dedicated match.

I doubt USPSA would agree unless they could reasonbly expect participation in triple digits.

Like single stack, it would likely draw competitors that normally shoot in other divisions if it doesn't have to go head to head with them.

Tls

Edited January 4, 2007 by tlshores

[Pin Shooter]

Hi all,

I am new to the USPSA thing, but I do know a bit about ICORE. Rather than trying to start up a new USPSA revolver nationals, wouldn't it be easier to shoot the IRC. Stay with me here....USPSA / IPSC is an auto game....it is as simple as that...I am sure that there are pages on this forum, and discusiions held around the world, that think that that is wrong.Be it right or wrong, ( and I don't really have an opinion ) the fact remains that a revolver is not competitive at the USPSA matches, bowling, tennis, basketball and a host of other sporting events. If you want to compete at large revolver friendly matches, go to the IRC. If it spins there is a division for it. If you want to be "recognised" at a USPSA match, shoot the piss out of a division and win it. That division may be revolver, but we all know who we have to beat to do that, and he can be beat, it will just take dedication, and a flawless match. I have shot the Australian IPSC nationals with a revolver, and shot in Open Auto class, due to haveing an 8 shot. Yeah, it sucked, but no one held a gun to my head and said you have to shoot. The new revolver division rules that are being voted on, are lots of the same in my opinion, and ....if you want to play tennis, get a racquet, if you want to shoot USPSA get an auto, or if you want to shoot a revo, be prepared to be overlooked.

Sorry.

Mark

[JFD]

It's better to be ignored than get the treatment L-10 is getting right now. Be happy the division is in the shadows.

I also saw the report from MV where the attendance record was mentioned. That's a good sign.

[Viggen]

Hi all,

I am new to the USPSA thing, but I do know a bit about ICORE. Rather than trying to start up a new USPSA revolver nationals, wouldn't it be easier to shoot the IRC. Stay with me here....USPSA / IPSC is an auto game....it is as simple as that...I am sure that there are pages on this forum, and discusiions held around the world, that think that that is wrong.Be it right or wrong, ( and I don't really have an opinion ) the fact remains that a revolver is not competitive at the USPSA matches, bowling, tennis, basketball and a host of other sporting events. If you want to compete at large revolver friendly matches, go to the IRC. If it spins there is a division for it. If you want to be "recognised" at a USPSA match, shoot the piss out of a division and win it. That division may be revolver, but we all know who we have to beat to do that, and he can be beat, it will just take dedication, and a flawless match. I have shot the Australian IPSC nationals with a revolver, and shot in Open Auto class, due to haveing an 8 shot. Yeah, it sucked, but no one held a gun to my head and said you have to shoot. The new revolver division rules that are being voted on, are lots of the same in my opinion, and ....if you want to play tennis, get a racquet, if you want to shoot USPSA get an auto, or if you want to shoot a revo, be prepared to be overlooked.

Sorry.

Mark

Mark, well written.

Our only point of disagreement is the "if you want to shoot USPSA get an auto".

We are a Division of USPSA, no less than Open or Limited, we are just not as heavily populated. And it's a grand thing to hear words from a semi-shooter to the affect, "Oh darn, I just got crushed by a revolver shooter on this stage/match". It brings joy to the heart.

And of course, we should all also shoot ICORE matches and the IRC, as we are able.

Grow the sport and all organizations involved.

Edited January 4, 2007 by Viggen

[Daniele]

At the last I...ian National award ceremony, the national REVOLVER STANDARD champion got his medal after the "1 Lady Open", after the "first Senior Modified", after the " best C class Production", actually he was called after sunset , after every division, after every class, after ALL!

It seems Revo shooters ( the more disciplined, real marksmen of this game) get the same treatment in most countries.

Our game is thougher, we get less than other division, RESULT: less shooters involved, less newcomers.

Who has some brilliant idea to reverse this trend must talk.

I hope to see the "Standard" out of our name: let every revolver play this game; let every revo shooter play this game; the more we are, the better for our sport.

[hopalong]

Daniele,

We feel your pain (2005 USPSA Nationals)!

I hear Vince and a few of the other heads of IPSC are tossing around a change in your "Standard" Revolver division........seems like they are looking at the new USPSA ruling for the 2008 book. But I could be and have been wrong before.

Good luck, keep trying!

Hopalong

[Gary Stevens]

Hop your comment about a division that isn't a real division having it's own nationals got me to thinking.

If you were to negotiate, as I started and the President finished, for a match with national standing to host a Revolver National Championship, I think USPSA might be receptive to that.

Of course it helps if the match, as the Single Stack Nationals does, also assumes all of the responsibility of the match, staffs it with USPSA RO types, builds it, arranges prizes, require USPSA membership, use USPSA rules, and finally pays USPSA activity fees, while costing USPSA zero dollars.

It is a plan that might just get you that stand alone nationals.

Best wishes,

Gary

[hopalong]

Gary,

First of all, thanks again for the trouble and effort you have put forth on the revolver divisons behalf.

I think you and I are much alike in our thinking of the old guns (1911's and Wheels) that many of todays shooters don't understand about shooting and gaining competance at the old guns that started this particular sport compared to the new platforms that also allow great skill, but not with as much a challenge the old guns represent. I don't particularly like the phrase "Old School" anymore as it is thrown out too often now days and doesn't have the real meaning as it should.

I have much respect for what you have done for the 1911 and it's own Nationals, but let me clarify a little.

I have not asked for or lobbied for a stand alone Revolver Nationals, I know that is not possible, or plausible until the numbers have grown to match at least the much debated(now) Production division. (I would like to see a Race Nationals, and a factory Nationals again though). What I have been trying to do is get some converts from the autoloader shooters (As I am) and get my wheelgun brethren to go out and actively promote shooting a wheelgun in USPSA as a primary gun and a second at least. (that was my first and formost intentions)

Now about that talking to an already solid revolver match...................

The only one that I know of that fits the bill is the ICORE IRC(INTERNATIONAL REVOLVER CHAMPIONSHIP) which brings on a whole new challenge as far as a USPSA Nationals cooperative thing.

ICORE came about because of the "Equipment Race" in USPSA/IPSC and a few other things that I'm really not fully understanding of but that is OK.

The tallest obstical to step over would be the 2 divisions in ICORE vs. USPSA's "Standard 6 gun", then the round capacity would also be an issue, then the targets, the scoring......ect. I think you and most others see where I'm going.

About a wheelgunner doing an article, well that would be great if one of us would step up and do one (a little late for the 2006 Nationals though) I myself am finishing one up on Johnny Brister.......all I need are some good Pictures.

TLS hits the nail on the head about the catch 22, but the best way I know how to get more attention and respect is to attempt to beat the snot out of the autoloader guys and gals every chance I can (or any other wheelgunner who can). Get enough of us out there doing it or attempting to do it (as in my case when I started shooting a wheel) and things can't help but get better for the division.

I don't know who heard them, but at the 2006 L, L-10, R nationals some of the "big name autoshooters" had stopped and was watching the revolver "Supersquad" and was everheard mentioning something to the effect of how revolver shooters were the best at stage breakdown. Respect given from them. I say thanks from US, and coming from that background I can and do give them all the respect they deserve.

Hope that clears the Muddy water some.

Hopalong

Edit to clarify for myself, and because I still "Kaint spell"

Edited January 5, 2007 by hopalong

[Pin Shooter]

Looks like I had better get a 625..............

[aerosigns]

Gary,

Again thanks for sticking your neck out to help us all.

An important point that I think is overlooked when some request a Revo only nationals. I personally don't want a Revo ONLY Nationals.

I enjoy watching the super squad guys, and other types of shooting during the off time. It's part of the overall experience, and learning opportunity.

I think what most hope for is equal even treatment in that process. Even handed awards presentations, etc.

[Flexmoney]

A stand alone Revolver Nationals wouldn't likely have a bunch of shooters. At least, not for a number of years yet.

Given that, any club that had the ability to host a Sectional sized match could hold a Revolver Nationals. Nine or ten stages on Saturday, do a little razzle dazzle and switch-up the stages, then nine more on Sunday.

Staffing might be a bit of an issue. Like Gary said, you'd have to keep the costs down. To me, that means limiting staff expenses (food, lodging, shirts, etc.) Perhaps do what Area 1 did in 2005...run half-day formats and have the shooters work as well as shoot.

Build it...and they will come.

[Mooney]

I had spousal permission (most important), available vacation to take, money, and a wheelgun.

The only thing I didn't have was the dates.

We start bidding on vacation slots at work in late November/ early December. I asked my AD and sent El Prez about the dates; got the "soon..." email back, and the "I don't know yet either" from RB (my AD), took a guess on the dates and was wrong. Everyone who got the week I need (to even bother putting my name on the waiting list or seeing if the section/ area had any ungranted slots off) made plans as soon as they bid- so maybe next time.

I would love to shoot a National level match- but the blue collar population of USPSA needs (or at least I do) more advance notice on the dates.

Also, with the ratio of revolver shooters to semi-auto shooters, the waiting lists and granted slots get filled pretty quickly with flatguns, I would assume. Perhaps a little love from Sedro to allow our growing division to slide a few more people in??? Maybe? It's certainly a thought for the future.

My $.02....for what it's worth.

BTW- Bruce, thanks for the help- I thanked Rob in person when I saw him- great work with the proposed rule changes.

[Barrettone]

My suggestion would be to find someone in the ranks of the round gun and write your own article.

If it is done well and submitted to FS I'm sure it will find it's way into print.

About a wheelgunner doing an article, well that would be great if one of us would step up and do one (a little late for the 2006 Nationals though) I myself am finishing one up on Johnny Brister.......all I need are some good Pictures.

Hi Fellas,

I put a pen to paper and came up with something that might help to draw a little attention to our division. Let me know what you think, and if I should add anything.

_______________________________________________________________-

Shooting the “Wheel”

Revolver Division Builds Fundamentals

By: Jeff LaFave B23

Two years ago, I was shooting a match at one of our local clubs, and as I walked to the line of a 32 round field course, I could here two of my squad mates having a brief discussion regarding my choice of division. It went a little like this:

Shooter A: My God, how could he put himself through that kind of self-inflicted torture?

Shooter B: Yea…Tell me about it. You’ll be able to time him with an hourglass.

Well, they were right about one thing. You could time me with an hourglass, but it was far from torture. That was my first USPSA match with a revolver, and let me tell you, that from that point on, I was hooked!

You will often hear from other shooters in USPSA that it is an autoloader sport, but nothing could be further from the truth. One thing that USPSA prides itself on, is that there is a division for everybody. In fact, the only people I was shooting against that day were other revolver shooters. It cannot be emphasized enough that revolver division is more about the “Indian” than the “Arrow”. There is no magical device you can strap to your “wheelie” that is going to propel you to shoot like Jerry Miculek. It is a shoot-six-and-reload division that requires practice and competence to become proficient.

To that end, revolver division is an excellent entry division into the sport, as it builds basic fundamentals and lays a good foundation, which is key to winning at USPSA matches. You only have six rounds in the gun, so it is very important to make your shots count, as an average reload is around 2 seconds. Acquiring a good sight picture and learning to squeeze off an accurate shot is a must. You absolutely, positively must get your hits, or your scores will suffer greatly, as time is of the essence.

Additionally, you must become good at stage breakdown. It was overheard at last years nationals that many of the top level shooters were caught watching the revolver super squad, and commenting that wheelgunners are some of the best at breaking down a stage, as they have to do everything with six shots before reloading. I can also tell you that as an RO, you can have 10 revolver shooters through your stage, and they will shoot it 10 different ways depending on what their strengths and weaknesses are.

A friend of mine, John Baier, remarked on our way back from Summer Blast last year, that he was dizzy after RO’ing the three squads of revolver shooters. He noted that some would take the two close targets, then go cross-court to a 20 yard target before doing their reload, just because it saved a few tenths of a second. Another gentleman chose to run the course from right to left, simply because it was faster for him, when everybody else elected to shoot it left to right. In short, you will see some interesting target engagements when you watch the revo guys shoot.

A lot of new shooters are now joining the REVO-lution as it is now affectionately called because they are realizing that as challenging as Production division is with its 10 round capacity limit and minor scoring, that revolver offers an even greater challenge and promotes accuracy more than speed. For the purist, a wheelgun is manna from heaven. With the new renaissance in shooting “retro” divisions such as Single Stack, USPSA is beginning to migrate back to its roots. The success of the Single Stack Nationals, coupled with the record attendance at the last US Revolver Nationals (a whopping 50% increase) has made it apparent that people want to try their hand at shooting the “classic” firearms that began our sport.

Let’s talk a little about equipment. Just like production, it is very inexpensive to get started in revolver division. There is no real arms race, as the 6-shot-rule really nullifies any perceived advantage. You can shoot a 7 or 8 shot revolver, you just have to reload after the gun goes bang six times. The sport is dominated by the Smith & Wesson 625 platform or some derivation of it (25-1, 25-2, 25-3, 25.4, etc…). These guns are double action, and chambered in 45 ACP and take advantage of “major” scoring. There are also some hardy folks out there who shoot their Smith & Wesson 610’s (that shoot minor) and even a few who shoot a Tauras or Ruger. I have seen these guns sold for as low as $400-$500 for those who are thrifty enough to shop around a little. Gunbroker.com, GunsAmerica.com, the USPSA classifieds, and brianenos.com classifieds always seem to have a few up for sale from time to time, and bargains are out there…you just have to look. Any revolver, 9mm or larger that can take some sort of speedloading device will be competitive in revolver division.

Now let’s talk about accessories. There are several good holsters out there on the market. I’ve seen CR Speed, Safariland, and even some leather holsters from Galco and Fobus. They range anywhere from $50-$150 depending on what you want. Next, we come to moonclips and speedloaders. You will need these to do those lightning quick reloads. The moonclips can be ordered from various suppliers. A look in the Dillion catalog showed moonclips to run about $1.00 each (you’ll need about 50 of them to get started). Moonclip holders will be required if you run moonclips, and they are roughly $12 apiece. You will need about 8 of them to be safe. Speedloaders are about $10 each (you’ll need about 8 of these as well if you go this route), and then you will need holders for them, and they run about $10 each as well. These items can be had for less, but you will need to do a little shopping. A monner, and de-mooner are highly recommended to ease the loading and unloading process of moonclips if you choose them rather than the speedloaders (as most USPSA shooters do). These items will cost you $50 and $17 respectively.

Now, lets total our investment to get started in Revolver division:

Gun $500

Holster $100

Moonclips, Holders, Mooner and De-mooner $203

OR

Speedloaders and Holders $160

Total package cost: Between $760 and $803

Let’s do a little financial comparison that illustrates how revolver division is actually an excellent choice for a new shooter just starting out in the sport and on a fixed budget. In production (widely perceived as USPSA’s most newbie-friendly division), you need a semi-auto handgun (about $500-$600 for a Glock, Sig, H&K, M&P, etc…), 5 magazines (about $150 for the average auto), and a Kydex holster and 2 double magazine pouches (runs about $60). This investment is about $800-$900. So you see, revolver is a viable option even from a financial standpoint when getting started in USPSA.

Don’t discount the intangibles that come with starting out with a revolver. The skills you attain in the division will serve you well should you ever decide to switch to another division. There is something to be said for making your shots count and learning how to break down stages. Additionally, the revolver shooters in this sport are some of the hardest working, downright friendly folks you will ever have the pleasure of meeting. They work hard and play hard. Everyone seems to be getting into the act. Even “The Great One” himself, Rob Leathum picked up a revolver last year and shot the International Revolver Championships (IRC) just to see what all the fun was about.

So, whether you are already shooting in another division, and want to elevate your own game to new heights, or are talking to a potential new shooter, don’t discount revolver division. You might just be doing that newbie the biggest favor of their life, as they will improve faster, and build solid shooting fundamentals that will help them well into their shooting career!

Edited January 6, 2007 by Barrettone

[Wideload]

Shooting the “Wheel”

Revolver Division Builds Fundamentals

By: Jeff LaFave B23

Two years ago, I was shooting a match at one of our local clubs, and as I walked to the line of a 32 round field course, I could here two of my squad mates having a brief discussion regarding my choice of division. It went a little like this:

Shooter A: My God, how could he put himself through that kind of self-inflicted torture?

Shooter B: Yea…Tell me about it. You’ll be able to time him with an hourglass.

Well, they were right about one thing. You could time me with an hour glass, but it was far from torture. That was my first USPSA match with a revolver, and let me tell you, that from that point on, I was hooked!

**************************************

Nice write up. Nice breakdown of costs. Need to mention that when you get all your brass back neatly snapped in moon clips... your revo becomes an object of envy by all the shooters of bottom feeders -especially those shooting the high dollar 38 Super Comps.

[Barrettone]

Shooting the “Wheel”

Revolver Division Builds Fundamentals

By: Jeff LaFave B23

Two years ago, I was shooting a match at one of our local clubs, and as I walked to the line of a 32 round field course, I could here two of my squad mates having a brief discussion regarding my choice of division. It went a little like this:

Shooter A: My God, how could he put himself through that kind of self-inflicted torture?

Shooter B: Yea…Tell me about it. You’ll be able to time him with an hourglass.

Well, they were right about one thing. You could time me with an hour glass, but it was far from torture. That was my first USPSA match with a revolver, and let me tell you, that from that point on, I was hooked!

**************************************

Nice write up. Nice breakdown of costs. Need to mention that when you get all your brass back neatly snapped in moon clips... your revo becomes an object of envy by all the shooters of bottom feeders -especially those shooting the high dollar 38 Super Comps.

Good point!!! Will do...Anybody else have any ideas??? BTW...I will need some photos to spice things up a bit. If any of you could contribute them, along with credits showing who shot the photo, and a caption of who is in it, it would be appreciated. Robin Taylor likes pictures to accompany all articles if at all possible. You can email them to me at: jlafave@mich.com

Edited January 6, 2007 by Barrettone

[Carmoney]

Digital photos?? If so, I got a bunch you can use!

[Barrettone]

Yep...digital works...ship 'em!!!

[haras]

Nice job on the article, hope it sees print. I Picked 5 out of the 2006 Mississippi Classic (hope you have a fast connection). Names were included.

[Tom Mainus]

Jeff,

Nice article, the only thing I disagree with is the guys shooting 610 shooting minor. I think all the guys who go with the 610 go for major scoring. No one from last year shot minor and there were a couple of 610's.

Just my .02,

Tom

Edited January 6, 2007 by Tom Mainus