Tragic Loss

[revchuck]

The teeter-totter action of the scope is gonna make hitting anything a real bitch, though!!

Got any JB Weld around the house, John?

Yeah, if you use a dremel as much as he does, you need to keep some on hand.

[High Plains Drifter]

John,

Glad the 29 was the only thing harmed.

I did talk to Tom Freeman today..His theory is that the "entire" top of the powder charge was ignited resulting in the catastrophic explosion. With recoil and movement of the powder charge "it could happen" and probably is the most plausable answer. Just a theory !

Cheers

[vtr1]

Again same as everyone.. glad you are OK, on another note Blue Dot BAAAD.. every gun that I have seen blow (save one) had heavy chearges of Bule Dot, the suff is just too unperdictable at high pressure.

[johnb]

Again same as everyone.. glad you are OK, on another note Blue Dot BAAAD.. every gun that I have seen blow (save one) had heavy chearges of Bule Dot, the suff is just too unperdictable at high pressure.

I'm planning on a nice little fire with what I have left of it.

[revchuck]

Again same as everyone.. glad you are OK, on another note Blue Dot BAAAD.. every gun that I have seen blow (save one) had heavy chearges of Bule Dot, the suff is just too unperdictable at high pressure.

I'm planning on a nice little fire with what I have left of it.

You could always just spread it on the lawn and get some constructive use out of it.

[Jack Suber]

I have a question regarding the initial post (bare with me, I am not a revo expert). What is "gas cutting on the top strap". Is that a case of gases venting from between the cylinder and barrel and therefore "torching" the top strap of the gun? Just curious because I hunt with a Ruger Redhawk. I want to know what danger signs to look for. I use a 240 grn LSWC and I am pushing it to about 1550 fps with 2400. I haven't seen any of the standard danger signs but "gas cutting" is something I am unfamiliar with. Thanks.

[Nemo]

Jack,

I don't think you can ever gas-cut a Ruger.

I've never noticed top strap cut in non-magnum revos... then again I, like you, am no revo expert. I just try to look like I know how to shoot 'em.

Edited to add: Mr. B, glad you'll have a Christmas season with all your fingers still attached to you.

Edited December 14, 2006 by Nemo

[revchuck]

...bare with me, I am not a revo expert...

Jack - No thanks, most of us don't swing in that direction, even with revolver experts.

Sorry, I've been editing too many reports...

[Bubber]

I have a question regarding the initial post (bare with me, I am not a revo expert). What is "gas cutting on the top strap". Is that a case of gases venting from between the cylinder and barrel and therefore "torching" the top strap of the gun? Just curious because I hunt with a Ruger Redhawk. I want to know what danger signs to look for. I use a 240 grn LSWC and I am pushing it to about 1550 fps with 2400. I haven't seen any of the standard danger signs but "gas cutting" is something I am unfamiliar with. Thanks.

Jack, if you look at the underside of the topstrap you may notice a line in the topstrap between cylinder and forcing cone. And yes you are correct the "torching" is what we are talking about. But it will only cut so far and will not get any worse. I have worn out the insides of a L frame and still have the topstrap intact.

edited to add a slice of what Pat S noted in a previous post on this Subject "No idea of the cause, but one note on topstrap cutting: don't sweat it. with a few exceptions, it is a slef-limiting problem. the gas jet loses velocity quickly, and once the strap is cut a bit, it usually stops. Now,k if you're loading 180 JHPs to insane velocities, yes you're going to get more cutting." I hope this is kosher. rdd

Edited December 14, 2006 by Bubber

[Carmoney]

You could always just spread it on the lawn and get some constructive use out of it.

If you do that, just make sure you spread that Blue Dot really thin.

A couple years ago I defended a lawsuit where the homeowner dumped several pounds of 40-year-old Bullseye powder out back of his house in the compost pile. A year later somebody came up out of the woods from mushroom hunting, went to put out his cigarette, and was literally consumed in a yellow fireball, burning himself within an inch of his life.

We deposed an old guy who'd been a product manager for Hercules for 40-some-odd years, and he said the only way you can kill smokeless powder is by carefully burning it. The chemical engineers who were employed as expert witnesses conducted a bunch of tests that confirmed that opinion.

[D.carden]

You could always just spread it on the lawn and get some constructive use out of it.

If you do that, just make sure you spread that Blue Dot really thin.

A couple years ago I defended a lawsuit where the homeowner dumped several pounds of 40-year-old Bullseye powder out back of his house in the compost pile. A year later somebody came up out of the woods from mushroom hunting, went to put out his cigarette, and was literally consumed in a yellow fireball, burning himself within an inch of his life.

We deposed an old guy who'd been a product manager for Hercules for 40-some-odd years, and he said the only way you can kill smokeless powder is by carefully burning it. The chemical engineers who were employed as expert witnesses conducted a bunch of tests that confirmed that opinion.

Mike,

That sounds like an episode of C.S.I.

You sure your not hunt'n for a writer's job for the show.......

I can see it now.....Carmoney goes Hollywood...

[Flexmoney]

Have you shot much of those particular 300g bullets before?

That 3rd shot dropping down to 771 seems weird enough that I wonder if something could have been bad with the bullets ? (a bit of separation...robbing velocity in the process...maybe leave some material behind).

[pskys2]

So if you flush some down into the septic, some fool could blow his !#? off a few years later? Hmmmmm!

Yea, I was wondering if there could have been a chunk of lead left somewhere, causing an obstruction excessive pressure. But, if it did there should be a bulge of some kind there.

Maybe the ol' smokepole went out of time, and not being used to shooting Slooowly you didn't pick up on it and WHOOSH!

Glad you can still count to 10 with footwear still on.

[johnb]

Have you shot much of those particular 300g bullets before?

That 3rd shot dropping down to 771 seems weird enough that I wonder if something could have been bad with the bullets ? (a bit of separation...robbing velocity in the process...maybe leave some material behind).

I had just started working with those particular 300gr SWC's. I had also tried some 300's that are more of a TC profile. Tomorrow I'm going to let a friend's dad take a look at it. He worked for Martin Marietta for 30+ years doing stress testing on different metals. I haven't cleaned the bore yet to check for a slight bulge but will after he has a chance to check it out.

[fuzzysights]

John, like everyone has said I am glad you were not hurt. I had a .40 casehead seperation this summer and it was a very sobering moment! That is why I switched to .45 to get the lower case pressures.

[dillon]

If a piece of the bullet was left behind at or near the forcing cone, it may not have bulged the barrel. With a long bullet such as a 300 grain, the bullet would contact the bullet piece before the bullet had left the case. Now, the bullet weight jumps from 300 grains to 300 +?

This kind of weight increase to the projectile could easily move your load into the severe overload range.

[38superman]

We deposed an old guy who'd been a product manager for Hercules for 40-some-odd years, and he said the only way you can kill smokeless powder is by carefully burning it. The chemical engineers who were employed as expert witnesses conducted a bunch of tests that confirmed that opinion.

Am I to understand that powder that was left outdoors and exposed to the elements for more than a year still was chemically intact enough to ignite?

I would not have expected that.

The powder must have been soaking wet dozens of times.

Doesn't the stuff break down and decompose at some point?

Tls

[Carmoney]

That was my reaction at first too, Tony. Deposing the expert from Hercules was a very interesting experience. We learned that this stuff is designed to be non-hygroscopic (doesn't absorb moisture) and chemically stable. A chemical engineer involved in my case was able to somewhat replicate (with a shorter period of time, admittedly) the incident by repeatedly soaking a quantity of the old Bullseye with water, then leaving it in a windowsill to dry, etc., and I'll guarantee ya it still burned aggressively after it dried.

[pskys2]

I remember reading that Hercules left a quantity of Unique (back in the early to mid 1900's I believe) immersed in water for a long period of time. Dried it out and loaded it, if I remember correctly the deteriation was minimal.

[38superman]

Interesting.

I know that gunpowder if kept in a cool dry place will last many years.

However it does break down at some point over long periods of time.

Otherwise, why do all the loading manuals discuss how to spot powder that has deteriorated and should be discarded?

Granted, time was not the issue here but I never knew that powder could survive getting wet.

Tls

[Carmoney]

However it does break down at some point over long periods of time.

Otherwise, why do all the loading manuals discuss how to spot powder that has deteriorated and should be discarded?

In that case I was talking about, my client found another partially-filled can of Bullseye powder that he missed when he was dumping out his old supply on the garage shelf. It is in its original old square metal container, which using Hercules' archives we dated back to the early '60s. Looking at the powder, it looks and smells like new Bullseye. I haven't tried loading any ammo with it yet, but I intend to do so one of these days. I would bet money that it will function just fine, even after 40+ years. Our expert from Hercules told me that when he retired a couple years ago, they still had some of the original supply from way back which the factory continued to use as a consistency standard. Bullseye was first formulated and marketed in the 1890s, and has remained essentially unchanged since.

I have heard and read for years that "spoiled" smokeless powder has a strong ammonia odor. However, in more than twenty years of handloading, I have never actually witnessed this myself. I don't doubt that it happens, but it's certainly not the norm.

I guess nothing lasts forever, but smokeless powder is damn close.

Edited December 21, 2006 by Carmoney

[RogerT]

In the end of WWII the allied forces sank the German warship Tirpitz in northern Norway. The ship was in a narrow "fjord" under repair, and was turned over by massive bombing of the sea close next to it, and sank.

The ship has since then been scrapped (only 30 metres deep water) and all that is left now is a large "junk yard" on the sea bottom.

In the year of 1985, over forty years after the ship sank, we could still retrieve long pieces of the ships artillery powder, it looks like 3/4 inch diameter pencil lead, dark gray/green in color. We found some pieces that where about 1 ft long and they burned when ignited by a cigarette lighter!