SSD, shoot it or L10?

[omnia1911]

Why not 6 rounds? afterall we don't want to annoy the rev guys.

Jim

Great idea!

Good stages aren't designed in multiples of 8, or 6, or........

Neither are bad ones.

A good 32 round, or less, stage can be designed with 6 round max arrays. If you are a stage designer attempting to stuff a small shooting bay full of targets to get the round count up, I would surmise that your objective is not good stage design.

Sometimes the rule book needs to be used to "encourage" good stage design by setting boundaries that coordinate with the equipment guidelines for all of the divisions that we are attempting to support.

The SSC does it, IDPA does it, ICORE does it. Are we marketing USPSA to these groups, or not?

Edited November 25, 2006 by omnia1911

[Jim Norman]

All arrays are one target and two rounds.

Some arrays are just closer together than others.

Jim

[Mistral404]

L10 is not Single Stack! You all know that wide bodies, Glocks, Paras etc can be u sed in L10. Only SS for SSD. There is nothing wrong with this. I dislike the carping about too many divisions etc. There are just too many good reasons to have the SSD.

A good 16 round stage is hard to find much less a 32 round stage. Now I have limited experience but in two nationals, a couple of Area matches and a slew of other matches I have seen adherence to the 9 rounds for one shooting area migrate to 16 rounds. Good stages are diffucult but that is ok by me. I just enjoy shootin em.

[uscbigdawg]

Rounds per position limits are dumb (personally). If you don't have ammo to engage in a position, guess what...neither does anyone you're competing against.

Rich

[Matt Cheely]

Rounds per position limits are dumb (personally). If you don't have ammo to engage in a position, guess what...neither does anyone you're competing against.

Rich

But it does if you have different round counts in a division. ie: SSD. Watching 8 round SSD shooters pick apart a course of fire compared to the production or L10 guys, it became a no brainer to me - shoot 9mm with 10 rounds and you'll smoke everyone else.

[omnia1911]

It has become crytstal clear to me over the years that shooters do not want to make static reloads due to stage design, and will make choices, choices that USPSA should be paying attention to, regarding which organization, or division, that they will shoot in.

Sometimes it is no fun being kicked in the shins in spite of the fact that I know everyone else is being kicked in the shins too.

Edited November 25, 2006 by omnia1911

[Punkin Chunker]

Alan,

. . . What about my broomhandle Mauser? What division should I shoot that in?

Jim

I'd say take it to IDPA, since you have to shoot it dry to reload anyway!

You'll just need a trenchcoat for a cover garment!

[Punkin Chunker]

. . . I shoot both games precisely because they are different. I can use carry gear and 8-round mags in IDPA, and switch to race gear and 10-rounders for USPSA. While having similar equipment rules might encourage people to kick USPSA's tires, I think people want to "race" when they shoot USPSA, and that's hard, when you have only nine rounds in the gun.

I agree that L10 is already a single stack division, and I absolutely don't buy the theory that faster reloads make single stacks uncompetitive there. . . . . I'll just have to have a better plan, economize on movement, and shoot straighter. That's always a winning combination. . . . So, I'll be shooting my single stack in L10 as long as there is an L10. If L10 goes away, I doubt that I'll shoot SSD, except at SS-only matches.

I absolutely agree with about 90% -- there are a couple of other little details, such as holster/mag carrier type and location that come into play as far as time goes, but beyond that -- if your feet are moving, you need to be reloading.

Shooting a 1911 in L-10 isn't that tough; I've found that having a single 10-round magazine in the box was enough to give me the flexibility in planning my CoF to minimize trigger down-time. When I needed the extra couple of rounds, I would carry it. That came out to about 1 out of every 15 stages or so when I actually had a use for it. Of course, I'm out there for fun, not tense and gritty, trying to shave that .1 off the clock

[zhunter]

The number of shots in an array does not matter, you're shooting against others using the SAME equipment, so it is the SAME for everyone in that division.

[omnia1911]

The number of shots in an array does not matter, you're shooting against others using the SAME equipment, so it is the SAME for everyone in that division.

That argument, if adopted as standard logic, would give USPSA the cover needed to never improve the game. The fact that it is a bad rule wouldn't matter, because everyone has to suffer through it together, thus, maintaining a level playing field.

[uscbigdawg]

The number of shots in an array does not matter, you're shooting against others using the SAME equipment, so it is the SAME for everyone in that division.

That argument, if adopted as standard logic, would give USPSA the cover needed to never improve the game. The fact that it is a bad rule wouldn't matter, because everyone has to suffer through it together, thus, maintaining a level playing field.

You would think so, but it's why we have 8 round limits per array now.

Rich

[ChuckS]

You would think so, but it's why we have 8 round limits per array now.

Rich

8 round limit?

[Flexmoney]

Folks, there are guns out there they shooters would like to shoot with...they fit into limited-10 (or production)...they hold 8 rounds. (and, I'm not talking about 1911's)

If 8 or 9 rounds don't matter...then lets go with 8, OK?

[ima45dv8]

Currently, it's 9:

"1.2 Types of Courses

IPSC matches may contain the following types of courses of fire:

1.2.1 General Courses of Fire:

1.2.1.1 “Short Courses” must not require more than 9 rounds to complete and no more than 2 shooting locations.

1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or view.

1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or view."

[Jim Norman]

I will reluctently support 8 rounds, if you all will support changing Long Courses to suggested round count is 32, however a long course may exceed this number at L1 and L2 matches.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

That sounds good to me, Jim.

(Odd that we can suggest freestyle at the L1 matches, but are stuck with a 32 round max.)

[wide45]

That sounds good to me, Jim.

(Odd that we can suggest freestyle at the L1 matches, but are stuck with a 32 round max.)

US1.1.5.1 Level I matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations.

Edited November 25, 2006 by wide45

[steel1212]

Me being the new shooter I only had a 1911 9mm and 9 round mags so I shot in Limited 10 as it had classifiers. If SS had classifiers I would have shot that. I now shot limited 10 with my XD because thats what I like and its cheaper to shoot than .45 ammo and cheaper than a new gun. The only down side is I have to shoot against down loaded wide bodies. I don't cry I just go on about my way, it is what it is. I hope they keep SS and I'll shoot it more with classifiers but if they got rid of it I'll just shoot my 1911s with 10rd mags no biggie. If they got rid of limited 10 I would be more upset as I like major scoring more than minor, and I would be stuck with minor and my XD if they got rid of L10.

I'm a noob so what does my opinion matter right.

[ima45dv8]

I'm a noob so what does my opinion matter right.

I think this little tidbit from your signature line makes your opinion as valid as anyone else's:

"USPSA: A-57351"

Edited November 26, 2006 by ima45dv8

[steel1212]

I'm a noob so what does my opinion matter right.

I think this little tidbit from your signature line makes your opinion as valid as anyone else's:

"USPSA: A-57351"

Yeah, I guess it does...

[Viggen]

I will support an 8-round class, call it whatever you want. But to confine the division to just the holy relic know as the 1911 makes no sense. If you push this through then what about the Glock Division and the XD Division and the M&P Division.

If anything adjust the American Divisions to conform to IPSC instead of heading off into left field and making a Division that doesn't fit anywhere on the international scene, because it doesn't exist. It's an international, big-time game, supposedly - let's get with it.

I guess I'm saying the 1911 Division is not a good idea even if the old heads want it for some reason. If we are not going to adopt IPSC Divisions, leave well enough alone. If someone just has to shoot 8 round mags, do it in L10.

And if you want a challange, head over to Revolver and learn to be creative with your shot plan.

Fortunately the 1911D is provisional and gives us something to chitter about as we head into winter.

[cliffy109]

I will support an 8-round class, call it whatever you want. But to confine the division to just the holy relic know as the 1911 makes no sense. If you push this through then what about the Glock Division and the XD Division and the M&P Division.

If anything adjust the American Divisions to conform to IPSC instead of heading off into left field and making a Division that doesn't fit anywhere on the international scene, because it doesn't exist. It's an international, big-time game, supposedly - let's get with it.

I guess I'm saying the 1911 Division is not a good idea even if the old heads want it for some reason. If we are not going to adopt IPSC Divisions, leave well enough alone. If someone just has to shoot 8 round mags, do it in L10.

And if you want a challange, head over to Revolver and learn to be creative with your shot plan.

Fortunately the 1911D is provisional and gives us something to chitter about as we head into winter.

I'd love to see Single Stack, really be for single stacks, regardless of what the configuration is. I think having a 1911 division is counterproductive to bringing in more shooters. There are plenty of Sig 220 owners who would love a vanue to be competitive. The same can be said of owners of guns like the P7M8, various S&Ws and there are a number of new guns coming out soon like the HK45 and even a rumor of a single stack Glock. Why not bring those people into the sport in a competitive manner? Yes, they could shoot L10, but at a disadvantage in capacity. I'm a 1911 fanatic, but I would be quite happy to compete against other platforms of similar capabilities.

[zhunter]

I will support an 8-round class, call it whatever you want. But to confine the division to just the holy relic know as the 1911 makes no sense. If you push this through then what about the Glock Division and the XD Division and the M&P Division.

If anything adjust the American Divisions to conform to IPSC instead of heading off into left field and making a Division that doesn't fit anywhere on the international scene, because it doesn't exist. It's an international, big-time game, supposedly - let's get with it.

I guess I'm saying the 1911 Division is not a good idea even if the old heads want it for some reason. If we are not going to adopt IPSC Divisions, leave well enough alone. If someone just has to shoot 8 round mags, do it in L10.

And if you want a challange, head over to Revolver and learn to be creative with your shot plan.

Fortunately the 1911D is provisional and gives us something to chitter about as we head into winter.

I'd love to see Single Stack, really be for single stacks, regardless of what the configuration is. I think having a 1911 division is counterproductive to bringing in more shooters. There are plenty of Sig 220 owners who would love a vanue to be competitive. The same can be said of owners of guns like the P7M8, various S&Ws and there are a number of new guns coming out soon like the HK45 and even a rumor of a single stack Glock. Why not bring those people into the sport in a competitive manner? Yes, they could shoot L10, but at a disadvantage in capacity. I'm a 1911 fanatic, but I would be quite happy to compete against other platforms of similar capabilities.

The more the merrier, if it is single stack, it should qualify, so big...

+1 from me

[Greg Jones]

The same can be said of owners of guns like the P7M8, various S&Ws and there are a number of new guns coming out soon like the HK45 and even a rumor of a single stack Glock.

Sorry to drift from the original topic, but unlike the other guns you mention, the HK45 is not a single stack and with its 10-round mags it would play nicely in L10.