cliffy109

The "combined results" is the only way a single stack shooter can figure out how he's really doing. There are so few competitors in this division that I often have to look at the combined totals to see how I did against guys that I know are roughly at the same level as I am. I realize and understand that its not a perfect way to compare results as the guys in the other divisions have a capacity advantage, but I at least get an idea. Its not just a tool for SSD guys either. If two fairly evenly matched competitors want to see how they did against each other and one is shooting L10 and the other is Production, the combined results make that easy. Its just a handy tool to use in judging your individual performance against others outside your division. I like it.

Sure they do. Its the same place a guy with a Sig 225, HK P7M8 or any other lower capacity gun would play. That is, L10 or production. Yes, they'll be at a handicap but at least you have more consistent rules. Production doesn't allow extended mags for these guns so why should L10? There really are not that many single stack 1911s that don't fit into SSD anyway.

I'd love to see Single Stack, really be for single stacks, regardless of what the configuration is. I think having a 1911 division is counterproductive to bringing in more shooters. There are plenty of Sig 220 owners who would love a vanue to be competitive. The same can be said of owners of guns like the P7M8, various S&Ws and there are a number of new guns coming out soon like the HK45 and even a rumor of a single stack Glock. Why not bring those people into the sport in a competitive manner? Yes, they could shoot L10, but at a disadvantage in capacity. I'm a 1911 fanatic, but I would be quite happy to compete against other platforms of similar capabilities.

Well, its easy for me to leave well enough alone. I'm just a C class shooter who isn't part of the decision making process for USPSA. Just as you're self interest is to keep as many shooters in L10, mine is to get more into SSD. I want the competition. I think eliminating the 170mm mag exception would do that and would keep things a lot cleaner in the rules. There really isn't a rational reason to allow single stack shooters to have longer mags except to remain competitive against guys running race guns with race gear. I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest. It was not my intention to gore anybody's ox. My suggestion was just an observation about what I see as an impediment to getting more people in the SS division.

If that comment is directed at me, I apologize. I enjoy shooting single stack. I would like to continue shooting it. Its frustrating to be one of only 3 or 4 people at a match with 100 people at it and see perhaps another 10-12 walking around with 10 round 1911 mags. The division is doomed if we can't draw more people into it.

Which is just another way of eliminating Limited10. I'll propose a different idea! Let's eliminate SS and move those shooters into the Limited10 division! Not very original, huh? Or maybe both can peacefully coexist and no one would have to feel like *their* division is the one that got speared. How would that eliminate L10? The widebody guns still would run in L10 and anybody who lives behind enemy lines who still has a magazine capacity limit would be unaffected. Glock 21s, HK USPs and CZs would still compete in L10. It would just move single stack shooters into the single stack division. What sense does the exception make anyway? Why does it exist? Is it so single stack shooters can be competitive? Well, now single stacks have their own division so there's no need to make accomodations for them in L10.

Well, if nobody's shooting it, it will never make it out of the provisional status.

I shot SSD for the first half of the year and finally gave up. There just are not enough other shooters to make it fun. At the VA-MD Secional, we had exactly 4 shooters. I switched to L10 and that's what I shot the rest of the year. I think I've figured out how to get more shooters into this division. Eliminate the magazine length exception for single stack guns in L10. That would leave the race gun shooters alone but would move the single stack shooters into the correct division. I assume that rule was put into place to allow owners of single stacks to be competitive since they would be outclassed in L10 otherwise. Well, now there there's a specific division for single stack guns, that rule is obsolete.

Here is my totally selfish view of things. I would prefer to shoot single stack. I enjoy it and like the challenge. What I don't like is the complete lack of competition. In the small club matches, I'm usually one of two who shoot it. In the larger monthly matches, I'm one of 3 or 4. Even in a big Sectional, there were only 4 SS shooters and one of those was a Grand Master. It doesn't offer much chance for a C class shooter to develop and judge his performance against others with similar guns and gear. I got tired of it and have switched to L10. I don't like it as much and feel like I'm in more of a gear competition against guys with gaping mag wells, heavy guns with dust covers and speed holsters of all sorts. I have no idea why most of these guys are not just shooting Limited anyway. At least there are a few guys with single stack pistols with 10 round magazines hanging out the bottom. What I would like is to grow the SS division. There are three things that would accomplish this: 1. Allow other single stack guns such as the Sig 220 and the S&W. It doesn't need to be a 1911 only division. 2. Eliminate the rule that allows 170mm magazines for single stack guns in L10. That will move those shooters into the SS division. 3. Stop this whole "provisional" madness where shooting classifiers in SS don't get recorded. Yeah, I know... those scores are kept and will be applied if it goes mainstream, but I think a lot of people, myself included, need to be able to track our progress with the classifiers. Sure there are ways to deal with this, but they are more hassle than they are worth. Just post the scores.

Next month is the MD-VA Regional, a level 3 match. There are exactly 3 of us signed up for Single Stack thus far. One is a Grand Master, I am C class and there is one D class shooter. Very disappointing.

I think this is the best post in this entire thread. Rules are rules and need to be followed, but when there is ambiguity, common sense needs to take over. That means looking at the context and reactions. I can think of a number of situations where the shooter could sweep the SO and be 100% without fault. In these situations, the shooter shoud not only get a re-shoot, he should get a medal for keeping the SO safe. Picture this... Right handed shooter backing up, engaging a target that is 60 degrees off to his left while backing up. The SO is on his right and not backing up quickly enough. After engaging the left target, the next target is 60 degrees to the right of the centerline of the shooter's path. The SO is 30 degrees behind the shooter's 180 (not the range 180. I'm talking about 180 degrees worth of the shooter's vision) while he engages the left target and there is no way he could see him. As he swings to the right target, he may be moving fast enough to sweep him with the muzzle, but if he's following the rules of gun safety, he doesn't press the trigger. That's an example of the shooter doing everything right and being blameless. Now, let's say the targets are a lot closer together. The shooter blows by the SO and can (of should) see the SO out of the of his vision. He ignores this and swings to engage a target and end up pointing at the SO but doesn't shoot. That is the shooters fault and deserves a DQ. I wasn't there. I don't know eactly what happened. I'm glad everybody came out alive and healthy. It sounds like the MD made a judgement call based on the fact and circumstances. That is what should be done.

Oh I'm not looking to replace my IDPA holster. I just know I'm slightly faster with the DOH. If its legal, I'm going to have to buy one. Just the kind of guy I am.

Do you mind me asking why you want to work on your L10 classification? I do too and my reason is because I want to actually see my classification. By the way... the 9 and 10 shot arrays are not so difficult if you're shooting against others shooting 8 round mags. It takes a mental adjustment to get over the fact that L10 and production shooters are going to have faster times due to thier capacity. Its far less annoying if there are a number of you shooting SS.

I've done that a couple of times during the smaller matches at the indoor range. They're pretty good about that. At the larger match, this just isn't a possibility. Besides that, I'm not sure how fair it is to the other shooters. They paid the same fee I did and got to shoot it once. I always feel bad about asking even though they don't seem to mind. I actually wonder if this is why there are not more SS shooters at the larger matches. There are a number of L10 shooters with 1911s at these and I can't think of any other reason they would not shoot SS.

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I'm really enjoying the provisional SS division. I've been shooting it for the last few months and I really like the challenge. I've gotten better at problem solving stages where the 8 round mags are not as big a handicap as I once thought it was. I like the fact that I can arrive at the range, unload my regular carry gun, shoot the match, load back up and head home. My carry gun really is my competition gun and this means a lot to me. I really want to see the single stack division succeed. To do my part to help it succeed, I shoot every match as single stack. I'm shooting 2 matches a month and every one is done SS. This means I'm racking up a considerable number of classifier stages that are essentially wasted. If/when SS is made a regular division three years from now, these early scores will not be a measure of where I'm at by then. I've thought about signing up for some of these matches as L-10 so I can accumulate a few more Classifiers. I'm hesitant to do that though. At a recent match with 90 shooters, there were only three of us shooting SS. At another with 60 shooters, 4 of us were SS. Its my fear that with so few people shooting SS, the division will die. So I do my part by being the token single stack shooter. I would like to be able to track my progress over the next few years. I'm a C class shooter based on the 4 classifiers I shot in January as L10. I would like to think I will not be a C class shooter in 2 1/2 years, but if things continue as they are, that's exactly the class I will be in. Has any thought been given to taking all the SS classifier scores and applying them to a person's L10 classification? The stages are neutral on 8 round magazines and the rest of the equipment is similar enough to justify this. It would seem like this would give USPSA better data on who wants to shoot SS so they can make better decisions about the future of the division.

I voted no for a very selfish reason. I shoot IDPA and I don't want to buy another holster.

I just thought I'd share a breakthrough moment that happened for me this week at a club level match. For the last several months, (close to a year now), I've felt like I was at a plateau and couldn't figure out how to advance. I would see small, incramental improvements in my scores and standings, but at the end of the day, I didn't feel like I'd advanced much. I'm a solid C shooter who shoots well enough to keep the B and A class shooters on thier toes. In IDPA, I'm Sharpshooter but usually beat a lot of the Expert shooters. I'm good, but not even close to being in the same league with a lot of the people I shoot with. Over the last two months or so, I've seen more small improvements. I'm making fewer and fewer mistakes in stages. Things are getting smoother and smoother. Accuracy has never been an issue and my handicap has always been speed. Well, that changed this week. For some reason, I just started pushing myself for speed. My rythm was smooth and the pace was fast. I shoot single stack major and my cadence was not far behind the Limited and Open class shooters. Transitions just seemed to flow. Mag changes were rapid and exactly when I needed them. Everyhting just seemed to come together. Well, almost everything. I had several misses. This isn't typical for me, but I'm not overly concerned about that. This is where it gets hard to describe what I was seeing... it was like my eyes were still running at my old and slower pace. It really felt like part of my brain was surprised at what another part of the brain was telling my body. I know that sounds strange, but as I look back at the match and remember each hit and miss, that's the only way I can describe it. Now the challenge is to sync up my brain to the faster pace. I think I must have been telling myself that I was going as fast as I could. Now, I know this wasn't the case. I can speed up and maintain control. I just have to believe it and follow through on that belief. I'm pretty excited about this. Sorry if its just rambling or obvious to some here, but to me, it was a revelation. Thanks for the chance to noodle this through.

I was about to start a new topic until I read through this one. This is the same concern I have. Try as I might, I can't seem to get comfortable with thumbs forward. It doesn't make sense to me. I've heard the phrase "if it hurts, you're doing it right." How can that possibly be condusive to good shooting? If it hurts, my body is going to resist it. Here's my problem. I'm hit a plateau. I'm always at the upper end of Sharpshooter or the lower end of Expert in IDPA. I've been at this level for quite a while and I'm looking for ways to advance. To this end, I'm taking a class from Scott Warren, but the grip thing is bugging me. I've always shot a modified Weaver, with the support arm only slightly bent, but definately pulling with the strong hand pushing forward. My grip with the weak hand is unstrained in its wrap around the stong hand. The weak thumb actually rides on top of the strong thumb which is on the safety. Both thumbs participate in disengaging the safety. This grip does leave part of the grip pannel exposed and unused. The tips of my strong fingers make contact with the meat of my weak hand, creating a good bit of contact friction. The class was last Sunday and will be completed this Sunday. In between, I shot a USPSA match. I made an effort to use the thumbs forward, iso grip but found myself fumbling between my old grip and the new one. The new one just doesn't seem natural. So what do I do? Is thumbs forward so important that I must learn it to improve? Am I really handicapping myself if I don't? Here are pics of the grip I'm talking about, compared to what isn't comfortable.

Since there is an 8-round restriction for major, there is no reason not to allow bullet diameters down to .355 (.38 Super, .357 Sig, 9x23, 9x21, 9x19, etc.) major in Single Stack. We'll have to wait two years to make this part of a permanent division's rule's. Good point. I was wondering about that myself. On a related note, the club level match this week is going to be interesting. They have a stage called "Blame it on Cliffy" which has two mandatory reloads after 6 shot strings. I'm rather looking forward to it. LOL

Is there a smilie that expresses a sheepish grin? I need it right about now. Don't ask me why, but for some reason I had only thought about movement that has the feet moving forward and then pivoting. Appearently, the people I watched were also thinking this and that is why I saw so much shuffling. Your comment about a modified military "about face" suddenly flicked the switch for me. "Ah... feet to the rear! That works." I can see how that will be faster and its fairly ambarrassing to admitt that I hadn't considered this. Sorry all for the ignorant post.

Hmmm... looks like I need my own timer if I'm going to get serious about this aren't I? Any suggestions on brand?

I tried the "search" feature and couldn't find anything on this (actually couldn't find anything at all which makes me think there is a problem with this feature). Which way do you turn and why on a stage that has you facing up range before the buzzer? This is a topic that has baffled me because I seem to do it backwards but nobody I talk to can give me a good explanation. Here is what I see: 1. Turn to the strong side. Guys that do this do a lot of shuffling. It takes a minimum of three different foot motions and most people and up shuffling after that. This is, hoever, the most commonly seen turn. 2. Turn to the weak side. This is the one I use. Its a two stage movement. Strong side leg makes one large step across the body. Once planted, the shooter pivots on the balls of both feet. This puts the strong side leg a bit behind the support side which is not ideal for the isocelese shooter, but perfect for the Weaver stance. Its a very consistent and fast move. It takes very little practice. The down side is that it takes some space to accomplish. If you're shooting from a box, there may not be space to pull it off. You have to start about 2 feet to the left of where you want to end up. 3. I've never seen this one done, but there is an alternative. This would be to pirouette on the ball of your strong side foot. This is a one step move, but requires a slick floor and shoes with poor traction. I've been practicing it, but I'm not sure how it will work on the range. So, what do you use and why? Why do I see Master class shooters turning to the strong side but seem less than sure-footed about it. There's always these little foot movements after they are turned. Maybe this isn't a hinderance because they are drawing while this is going on, but it would seem to me that a better mousetrap would be the weak side turn.

If you take a class on "combat" or defensive shooting, most schools have a 5 step firing stroke that goes as follows: 1. Strong hand on to the gun, fingers gripping the stock, support hand comes flat against the gut. 2. gun is raised up out of the holster. The muzzle needs to be above the top of the holster. 3. Elbow of the strong hand is thrust down. This levels the gun, using the first knuckle of your strong thumb as a pivot point. 4. Hands come together in front of the body. The safety is disengaged during this process and should be off as the hands meet up. 5. Arms are pushed forward. Finger enters the trigger guard at the beginning of this step and slack is taken out of the trigger as your arms extend. This extension is done so you can see your sights in the low part of your vision during most of the step and will be on target once you reach full extension. Prrrreeessss..... I learned this way and its what I've always done. YMMV.

That helps, but I will admitt that I'm not very experienced as a reloader and I don't know if I should expect similar results with a plated bullet versus the lead bullets you are using. How close should these be?