ihatepickles Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 START POSITION: Standing behind door with both hands in pockets (jacket or pants). Pistol unloaded slide forward or cylinder closed, hammer down, in box on table. I feel that a full magazine inserted into the gun but no round in the chamber complies with the start position specified. Am I gaming this too much? (and yes, I did prop the gun up too with an extra mag ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 10.5.13 ...A loaded firearm is defined as a firearm having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. So a full mag in the gun is a loaded condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted November 20, 2006 Author Share Posted November 20, 2006 10.5.13 ...A loaded firearm is defined as a firearm having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. So a full mag in the gun is a loaded condition. 10.5.x deals specifically with unsafe gun handling. Prepping a stage to be fired under the direction of an RO isn't unsafe gun handling. For further discussion, this doesn't define unloaded, it only defines loaded (but I still don't believe it's in the context of this matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 We usually spell that out a bit more in the WSB, but 10.5.13 defines a loaded gun. (which should be more than enough to define the inverse, I believe?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
et45 Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Ask a policeman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted November 20, 2006 Author Share Posted November 20, 2006 (which should be more than enough to define the inverse, I believe?) Well, I mean my previous comment to be a literal examination of the rules. For 10.5.13 it's germane to define 'loaded' because this term is used within the rule. But in the literal sense unloaded isn't a defined term so does it fall under the umbrella of freestyle? I'm not talking about compromising the safety of the range. My example is a specific example of gaming the rules while shooting the CoF under the supervision on an RO. I see both side of the argument, both sides seem gray and fuzzy though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airedale Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 START POSITION: Standing behind door with both hands in pockets (jacket or pants). Pistol unloaded slide forward or cylinder closed, hammer down, in box on table. I feel that a full magazine inserted into the gun but no round in the chamber complies with the start position specified. Am I gaming this too much? (and yes, I did prop the gun up too with an extra mag ) Pickles, First, love the bag over the head pic! Second,The firearm is loaded per the rules-no gray area IMO. Third, this is why guys like me are drifting away from USPSA. I come to shoot-not to stand by waiting while points like this are argued. It may be great fun for the person trying to gain the advantage but it's tedious for those of us waiting to shoot. I'd rather have a bad rash on my happy parts than listen to someone argue points like this. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 I agree with Dave. "Loaded" is not a word that should even require a definition. When a magazine is "loaded" into the gun, the gun is "loaded." I spend my entire work life in the realm of the gray and fuzzy, and I think this one is pretty clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 do you also think that at "if you are finished, unload and show clear" you can empty your chamber but leave a full magazine in your gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted November 20, 2006 Author Share Posted November 20, 2006 do you also think that at "if you are finished, unload and show clear" you can empty your chamber but leave a full magazine in your gun? Nope, the rules specifically state 8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty." Not much ambiguity there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 right...its telling you how to unload your gun. dont you think that would also apply to an unloaded start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted November 20, 2006 Author Share Posted November 20, 2006 (edited) right...its telling you how to unload your gun. dont you think that would also apply to an unloaded start? I'm absolutely certain what "unload and show clear" means. For everyone that's so certain what unloaded means, offer me proof that "unloaded" does not mean "all magazines must be empty of all ammunition". OK, that last part is rhetorical, but I hope it at least evokes a thought or two. Edited November 20, 2006 by ihatepickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 (edited) edited to remain civil dj Edited November 20, 2006 by dajarrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 (edited) Pistol unloaded slide forward or cylinder closed, hammer down, in box on table. WSB says unloaded, 10.5.13 states what LOADED is. Loaded is NOT unloaded therefore NO you may not start in a LOADED condition. At least that's how I would explain it to any who asked a similar question at the walk through. EDIT: FWIW The word "un-loaded" appears 13 times in the rulebook and is not specifically defined other than through the definition of Loaded. It is either loaded or it is not loaded (no grey). Edited November 20, 2006 by Crusher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 (edited) ...germane to define 'loaded' because this term is used within the rule. But in the literal sense unloaded isn't a defined term... You are kidding right?!?! I think from the beginning of school, you learn what opposite means. If it's not "loaded" then it must be "unloaded." Why do you need to define the antonym of a word that was already defined? "Unloaded" means "not loaded" and since "loaded" is defined, the condition you are asking about is the opposite of the "loaded" condition. There are gaming of a stage, but I believe you just took it to another different level. I don't know what level it is or even what world you are in, but NO you cannot put in a loaded magazine in your gun for an unloaded start!!!!! offer me proof that "unloaded" does not mean "all magazines must be empty of all ammunition"... The rule does not apply to magazines... The rule applies to the GUN. You are allowed to have a loaded magazine...you are not allowed to have a loaded GUN!!!!! Why are we even bothering replying to this crazy question?!?! Edited November 20, 2006 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 (which should be more than enough to define the inverse, I believe?) Well, I mean my previous comment to be a literal examination of the rules. For 10.5.13 it's germane to define 'loaded' because this term is used within the rule. But in the literal sense unloaded isn't a defined term so does it fall under the umbrella of freestyle? I'm not talking about compromising the safety of the range. My example is a specific example of gaming the rules while shooting the CoF under the supervision on an RO. I see both side of the argument, both sides seem gray and fuzzy though. From the glossary, 12.5, pg 76 of the rule book: Loading. " The insertion of ammunition into a firearm." Unloading."Removal of ammunition from a firearm." If you insert a loaded magazine, the gun is loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Loaded Pretty easy call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 This is a joke, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 You know, there's such a thing as "range lawyering", but this takes it to the level of tea-total brazen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 (edited) START POSITION: Standing behind door with both hands in pockets (jacket or pants). Pistol unloaded slide forward or cylinder closed, hammer down, in box on table. I feel that a full magazine inserted into the gun but no round in the chamber complies with the start position specified. Am I gaming this too much? (and yes, I did prop the gun up too with an extra mag ) I think you are confusing loaded with chambered when it comes to your pistol. Would you consider a 6 shot revolver loaded or unloaded if it contained 5 rounds with the hammer down on the empty chamber? Edited November 20, 2006 by omnia1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 START POSITION: Standing behind door with both hands in pockets (jacket or pants). Pistol unloaded slide forward or cylinder closed, hammer down, in box on table. I feel that a full magazine inserted into the gun but no round in the chamber complies with the start position specified. Am I gaming this too much? (and yes, I did prop the gun up too with an extra mag ) how was your time compared to others ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted November 20, 2006 Author Share Posted November 20, 2006 So, "having a live round in a magazine inserted in the firearm" means the gun's loaded. The corrolary is that an empty magazine inserted in the firearm means the gun's unloaded. Therefore we all agree that an unloaded start means all magazines must be empty at start, right? Since 'empty' is ambigious too, we'll decide that empty means no follower, spring or baseplates. For those still interested, I started with no magazine in the gun. Since this is a forum, I thought we'd have a discussion. As it turned out, the tone of most of people replying was either rude or arrogant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 (edited) Therefore we all agree that an unloaded start means all magazines must be empty at start, right? Since 'empty' is ambigious too, we'll decide that empty means no follower, spring or baseplates. No - that would be a magazine TUBE. A magazine comes complete with spring, follower, and base pad along with the tube. Not ambigious to the rest of us. And now you want a complete definition of "magazine" in the rule book? As it turned out, the tone of most of people replying was either rude or arrogant. Sorry if you feel that my answer to your question seemed rude or arrogant. It was meant to be derogatory. And do you not think you deserved such answers from such a question that you posed? Edited November 20, 2006 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Mr. Moderator, calling Mr. Moderator....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 (edited) I'm absolutely certain what "unload and show clear" means. Really? What does it mean to you? Edited November 20, 2006 by omnia1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts