World Shoot Qualifier

[glockaholic]

I just wish those massage therapists where there at the end of Sunday. Jeff and Larry wanted to put a square peg thru a round hole and were able to pull it off. Great job guys.

HEY!!! I was there all weekend. Larry got a massage Sat afternoon. I left my chair in the club house set up till I left Sunday. I did massage Jeffs neck Sunday I believe.

Edited May 24, 2007 by glockaholic

[Jim Norman]

I was the shooter who mentioned it to Chuck, He is a really nice guy and great shooter to compete against I'm sorry it caused all of this controversy, I just wanted to make sure my buddy stayed in production.

I agree this was the toughest match I've ever shot. THANKS! I seem to do better the harder the shots and the tougher the match. I Still don't know what happened on the 50 yrd stuff. i generally do bill drills on 12x14" steel out there. I'm not saying that I'm a better shooter than anyone there.. but for the most part, they are definitely all better runners than I am. I am totally looking forward to more IPSC matches in the future. Guess I'm going to have to read their rule book with a fine tooth comb.

Steve. I was not at this match since I am not planning on going to Bali, but I will be at the one in Tulsa since it is in conjunction with a match I am already shooting. Everyone seems to be saying that IPSC this and IPSC that as far as the level of difficulty of the match. "Gee, I need to shoot more IPSC". Why? We build our matches, no one tells us we can't have long shots or tight shots or long tight shots. We can run a full on, tough as nails USPSA match that is every bit as tough as any IPSC match any of us will ever shoot. We can put up a 3-2-1 mix of stages. What I like about USPSA is that we are striving for a non-interprative and stable rulebook. What type of match we run is not really governed by the rule book, but rather by the crews that build them. If we had to choose each month from 21 stage designs instead of begging for 7 we would have a lot more variety and just maybe a lot more tougher shots. We can put a few targets out at 35-50 yards, actually we do. We can run every leel of insanely tough stage under USPSA rules that can be run under IPSC Rules. Even the choice of target really doesn't enter into it. We can take a Metric and black out all but the head, put it at 30 yards and place two NS targets on each side of it. At least as tough as any Classic Target presentation. It is all in the hands of the builders and designers.

As usual my opinions. This is not directed at anyone particular shooter. Just that Steve was the last to comment on how tough the IPSC match was. We can make a match extrememly tough, black paint is cheap. Nothing but A-zones and No Shoots.

Come to think of it, If I have time, I just might paint up a bunch or targets for Sunday's match to make it more challenging.

Jim

[chuckw]

Everyone seems to be saying that IPSC this and IPSC that as far as the level of difficulty of the match. "Gee, I need to shoot more IPSC". Why? We can run every leel of insanely tough stage under USPSA rules that can be run under IPSC Rules.

Why do you turn every thread into an Us Vs Them pissing contest? Nobody's dumping on USPSA - they're saying how different and more tough the IPSC match was. I thought you wanted USPSA to be different. Now you wanna copy IPSC. Flip-flop!

How about we let the guys who shot the match enjoy their moment and swap war stories, OK?

Edited May 24, 2007 by chuckw

[ima45dv8]

Chuck,

I didn't see Jim's post as raising an "Us vs. Them" issue, but why is it that the IPSC stages are generally regarded as being tougher to shoot. I was actually wondering the same thing earlier today. If I understood him correctly, all he's saying is we don't have to wait until we have an IPSC-sanctioned event to put together tough shots/stages.

[Flexmoney]

As I mentioned earlier, the Ipsc portion of this match was tough by the choice of the match administration. Jeff further clarified that when he said that ...in his view...IPSC matches should be, or tend to be, tougher on the shooting. He prefaced that with him and the main stage designer having looked over past stages from large Ipsc matches.

What you got was the match administers view of how the match ought to be. Which...as mentioned...is the same thing you get at any club you go to. Whoever designs the stages...you get their view of things.

We have a monthly USPSA match here in Ohio that is often very humbling. So much so that it may scare some shooters off a bit.

Choice.

[Flexmoney]

ugh...new software not letting me fix my typos.

[glockaholic]

I like the more challenging stages. I am not a great, hell I'm not even good, shooter but I go out to have fun and when a stage is too open and straight forward I feel like I could have gotten the same thing just going to the range and saving myself the match fee. I shot the uspsa match and liked all the stages... well... besides duck duck goose, but I had fun at the match. I even beat one person... haa haa haa haa. At any rate, I enjoyed it.

[shred]

I wasn't at the match, so I don't have a good reason to comment, but I've shot a lot of USPSA and a number of IPSC matches, so here's my observations on the differences:

In most cases, the IPSC matches have had tighter shots, more no-shoots and less target 'arrays' all in a row, but aren't generally a whole lot harder shooting-wise than what you'd see at a typical Area match, especially if you swapped out the targets. It's not all 40-yard no-shoot-covered partials or anything-- most of the targets are in the 7-18 yard range everywhere. You still see targets you can bust .12 splits on, but you do a lot more setting up and getting in and out of positions, sometimes fairly tricky positions, for one or two targets. A 12-round stage might have 3 or 4 shooting positions. At the last Columbus Cup I think the biggest target array was two targets side by side with a no-shoot in between. There's more moving backwards as part of a COF, though not many full-on retreating stages. You'll also see more stages where there isn't a clean, straightforward 'flow' from one end to the other as well.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Glockaholic, Welcome to the forum. I didn't know you were a shooter too when we were chatting.

I'm not criticizing USPSA. I shoot the same match as flex does from time to time. I think that match is why I placed well at the IPSC match. I really don't think we want our level 1 matches or most level 2 matches to be that tough. Just because of the fact that it is demoralizing to have 100 points in penalties.

To put this into perspective Bob won production. More than once after a stage I heard.. my match is over... no way i can come back after this. etc. because in the USPSA match mindset we are so close in scores a penalty or bad stage followed by a terrible stage and we might as well go home.

IPSC is a totally different game. I LIKE IT! Yes we can make USPSA matches just like it. but who here wants to have their customers cry complain and just plain feel bad about their shooting. this will NOT build a successful USPSA club. We do need a few tougher shots though.

This is not US vs IPSC. we are all shooting brothers and sisters. just every other sport out there... pick your gun pick your division and shoot.. no griping!

I loved this match! AND it was the hardest i've ever shot! How abotu stage 2 on the USPSA match....... how about that half head shot at 3-7 yards... i saw many folks learn that there is offset in irons at that distance!!!

[Ben Stoeger]

I really don't think we want our level 1 matches or most level 2 matches to be that tough. Just because of the fact that it is demoralizing to have 100 points in penalties.

I loved this match! AND it was the hardest i've ever shot!

I hear these same two sentiments from people quite often.

I don't get it I guess.

[glockaholic]

Thank you. I have shot on a squad with you before Steve. I'm not saying one is better than the other. To be perfectly honest I don't really see a difference besides the targets and the rules. I would shoot either. I agree the stages at the level 1 and 2 matches should have some degree of difficulty but not on the level it was this weekend. To me shooting is shooting and I will shoot at whatever I can just to hear the bang, well to a certain degree, I'm sure you all understand what I mean. I enjoy this sport and plan on continuing for as long as I can. I have only been in it about a year or so so aybe I will get above a D class someday!!!! (Everyone has to have a dream)

Edited May 25, 2007 by glockaholic

[glock_40_caliber]

Well, it took me a while, but I finally got this photo off my phone and onto my puter. It looks like there was some kind of problem with one of the competitors vehicles, or they just didn't want any scratches on it. Either way, sure made for some amusement for a few people the first day of the match.

[Chuck Anderson]

That would be Angus' rental car. Everybody knows that Angus can't drive on the right side of the road. They're probably just trying to warn people away from him.

[Thomas Moore]

too funny! let's hope he had a sence of humor.

[Matt Cheely]

He looked anything but excited when he saw his car...

Or so I heard.....

[Patrick Sweeney]

I thought it was a fun match, but then I didn't rack up penalties like they were going out of style. I think the idea of using IPSC design sensibilities for the matches that will be used to select the teams is smart.

From the three WS I've been to, you aren't going to find any stages in Bali with the excesses some designers here love. You know, whole target arrays wide open at paster-blasting distances, and field courses you hose as you sprint through the props.

At Bali, I'm sure we'll see lots of gear-shifting, transitions to targets that look easy but are traps, and target pairs that require half-a-step each to engage.

One thing missing at TE were wicked-fast swingers, for which I was glad. (Note to self; practice those more before Bali.)

Kudos, Jeff and staff.

[Matt Griffin]

Curiousity: are there any certificates/plaques going out from either match?

H.

[glockaholic]

I believe so but Sako would be the one who would know for sure.

[Barrettone]

Curiousity: are there any certificates/plaques going out from either match?

H.

The IPSC World Shoot Qualifier was for medals only. They were all presented and claimed either by the winners or their proxies. The USPSA match is awarding plaques AND medals. I am going to ship them first-class mail on June 10th ***PROVIDED*** I have the extra ones that were needed from Protech Inc. (Manny Bragg) by that time. As you know, walk-ups and last-minute registrations can push you over the guideline numbers for awards (one for every 5 entries in a division/class/category...as published in the electronic matchbook). We ordered what was necessary as of 14 days before the match, but those numbers changed, and more plaques were required. A secondary reason for not shipping until the 10th is because we need to upload the OFFICIAL results to USPSA and have them transferred to IPSC. That is being done tonight. IPSC DOES NOT allow you to change and/or update results once they have been uploaded like USPSA does. We wanted to give ample time for competitors to get their IPSC aliases registered and to protest the results, as we will be at the point of no return once we upload for good. This is just a growing pain of developing the new software that is compatible with IPSC. We have a few details to work out, but Rob Boudrie, Roger Maier and company are doing just that. I hope this answers all your questions. If you have not received your plaque and medal by the 15th of June, contact me via email @ jlafave@mich.com.

Jeff LaFave

Targeting Education Co-MD

[kennya]

Does anyone know if the classifer from the USPSA Match is going to be posted?

[Barrettone]

It will post at the next update. We held off on making the results "official" until after June 1'st and did not pay the activity fees as a result before the cutoff date for it to make it for the June update. We had to wait on the IPSC portion because the software was new (as many of you know), and we do not have the ability to change the results once they are uploaded (an issue on IPSC's end...NOT USPSA). So, we had to wait 10 extra days to give everyone a chance to review their results THOROUGHLY before we uploaded the finals, as that was the point of no return. All is in order now and all paperwork has been finalized for the matches. If at the next update, you do not have your classifier listed, please contact me at: jlafave@mich.com and I will get it corrected immediately.

[Bucky]

Come to think of it, If I have time, I just might paint up a bunch or targets for Sunday's match to make it more challenging.

Jim

Don't you go muscling in on Vlad and Charlie's territory.