Mayonaise Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 (edited) Just because some guy shows up at a match with a DE .50AE in a bagmaster shoulder rig doesn't mean the rule book should be changed to accommodate him. Same with the guy that shows up with a compensated Bersa .380 (who I actually let shoot the club matches). Go through the published specs of the major production and custom guns made and you'll find that most of them are within the guidelines of the IDPA rules. Just can't please everyone who finds out after the fact that they bought something that's a no go. Life sucks sometimes. At least now you have a reason to buy another gun! Edited October 10, 2006 by Mayonaise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Think I might have to build a 1911 just gamey enough to be in the rules and piss off as many as possible. I'm thinkin' powder coated purple (for Blake)! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Think I might have to build a 1911 just gamey enough to be in the rules and piss off as many as possible. I'm thinkin' powder coated purple (for Blake)!Rich It's been done. Whatever floats your boat. We expect the left coasters to show up "stylish". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 (edited) Remember, IDPA is Bill Wilson's company. It's his way or the highway. As far as gaming goes, as I have mentioned, my P16 weighs in at 42.7 ounces. The S&A aluminum magwell is shaved to just fit into the box. The width of the magwell is 1.615", just .010" under or about 3 hairs. I usually get a few comments about being a gamer with such a big magwell. My load is a 180 gr. at 750 fps which is about 135 pf. My Uncle Mike holster has been modified to be legal with the speed cut opened up as much as possible and the holster dropped down as far as the rules permit. I'm pretty much pushing the rules all the way to the limits. I also know someone who has built up a single stack in 9mm with a shaved down officer slide just short enough to allow the use of a bull barrel. Edited October 10, 2006 by Scooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHARLES D Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 I looked through the rule book tonight and noticed that ESP guns can weigh 43 ounces, yet a CDP gun can only weigh 41 ounces including an empty magazine. Can anyone explain this rule to me? With a guide rod and magazine well, my CDP gun is just over the limit. I'm not trying to bash IDPA. I would just like to know the logic behind this rule. Thanks! I have been to many state matches and never seen a club weigh a gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Now you know how i feel. I had just bought a new Sig P226ST, just for idpa. The day after i picked it up, Bill Wilson decided we needed a weight restriction on SSP, never needed one before in all the years of idpa, but we need one now. Now my brand new, $1000.00 Sig is to heavy for SSP..... That's the problem...you run things like a dictatorship, and you make critics. People don't like arbitrary. FTDR - Would you really need a 50 ounce gun to handle 125pf loads? Try a lighter gun, I think you'll like it. Hell, I don't like 40+ ouce limited guns when I shoot major pf. My current load makes around 174pf and my gun weighs 36 ouces. But I digress... Bill, listen to your shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p99shooter Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Buying a gun, any gun, "specifically for IDPA" is completely contrary to the whole idea of IDPA. It is a run-what-ya-brung sport. I'm sorry, but if you have the disposable income to buy a $1000 pistol for a sport that frowns upon special purpose equipment, I can't feel sorry for you. And don't say you need a $1000 gun to be competitive; the winningest gun in IDPA is a stock G34. Hell, my local club match has been won buy the same person for the past year, and he uses a G34 with a stock trigger. Over in the USPSA forums on this sight, there's endless discussion about things like Sighttracker, 9mm major in open but not Limited, and other equipment issues. There, it always comes down to "it's the Indian, not the arrow." Shouldn't the same logic apply here in IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 At least 2 guys got FTDRs for being overweight.Kind of personal don't ya think! You funny! I think this is alluded to previously. I think they are trying to give wide berth to an equipment race and keep this stock gun/new shooter friendly. Initially I thought differing weight limits were wrong. If you determine most RW carry guns are (making up a number) 46oz and less, then set that as a cap for all handguns and be done. Problem is many folks will feel out classed if they believe in heavy gun = good gun and thier gun comes in under 46oz (hypothetical number). So lead tape, heavy parts, etc becomes "necessary equipment". If I didn't have to administer it, I'd like to see the limits be gun specific. Limit should be set to published weight + 2 oz's. But the rules are there. We all know them as we buy our gear and set it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f250sd Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 What I don't understand is why are we affraid of heavy guns? In USPSA Limited or L-10, There is no weight limit, but must shooters choose to shoot the lighter framed S_I guns instead of heavier steel framed guns, heck Dave S. won Limited nationals with a Glock. The heaviest gun does not win... My point is why make a rule to stop an "arms race" that will never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 What I don't understand is why are we affraid of heavy guns? In USPSA Limited or L-10, There is no weight limit, but must shooters choose to shoot the lighter framed S_I guns instead of heavier steel framed guns, heck Dave S. won Limited nationals with a Glock. The heaviest gun does not win... My point is why make a rule to stop an "arms race" that will never happen. Good question. Do any of y'all follow discussion groups where concealed carry is discussed, and shooting games are not discussed. If not, reading them is instructional. People on these carry specific groups are not trying to conceal an STI, they are all the time talking about how J frames, or Glock 19s are too heavy, or too bulky, or too hard to conceal, and they are considering a .380 or .22 for carry, or all manner of off-body carry. Very few on these carry specific discussion groups are carrying full sized guns, let alone full sized guns with weighty accessories added. Weight and size, too big and too heavy are very real concerns for people that actually carry every day, day in, and day out, winter and summer. Infact I see some disengenuous posts here that go something like, "I conceal a 6" barrel N-frame revolver, why can't I shoot it in IDPA, stupid rules." The truth usually goes something like, "I concealed a 6" revolver for a couple hours, once, back in the winter of 1999, but I never had to sit down, I have never carried it all day, or in the summer. Before you get all excited and say, but but but I carry a full size, let me say that I carry a 42 oz when loaded, double stack .45ACP all day, every day, winter and summer, so it can be done, but it is one heavy, bulky son-of-a-gun, and you have to be extremely bull headed to modify your wardrobe enough to do it. It is about 31 oz unloaded, with a mag, btw. All that said, I can see why a sport, all about concealed carry, would have a size and weight limits. Just a thought, Ken Reed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 All that said, I can see why a sport, all about concealed carry, would have a size and weight limits.Just a thought, Ken Reed I understand the idea of a weight restriction. IDPA would make a whole lot more sense to a lot of us if there were procedure descriptions at matches that went something like this: "at the start signal, draw your j-frame 5-shot revolver from your pocket holster in your front pocket and engage T1-T5 with one shot each............" If IDPA is really that concerned about concealed carry, why not have a concealed carry division that does just this? Why not have a BUG division at major matches? Show up and shoot a bone stock Kahr .40 in an IWB holster under your T-shirt!!! The whole premise of IDPA, at least as far as I've known it, is that if you wouldn't carry it, then it's probably not a good gun/choice of gear for IDPA. How many of you here compete with what you carry? How many here actually wear 5.11 vests when you carry? How many actually use a bladetech kydex holster when they carry? I use a kydex IWB from threat solutions, but it would be a disadvantage at a match. How many people carry two extra magazines? I think Bill Wilson really is a pioneer, and I love this game. I see so much potential for IDPA.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 It grinds my gears to hear people complain about the quality of SO in IDPA. Have we all forgotten that they are volunteers that may be compensated by shooting a match for 1/2 price for their day of making unpopular decisions and enforcing safe gunhandling. If you think that officiating is lacking, read the rule book, pick up a clipboard and timer and work the match. I think that there are shooters out there that will always do whatever it taked to win. Sandbagging the classifier, wimpy ammo, guns and equipment that have no practical use in a CCW enviroment. There are those who oppose just about any rule. It is a game and it has rules. There is an intent behind the rules. I think that it is reasonable to exempt a heavy gun from matches because the average joe would not carry it day in and day out. Holsters that no one other than a IPSC shooter would use have no value in CCW. Do i think that there could be some rule changes, yes. But I will play it as it is currently set up and campaign IDPA for what changes i think valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Where to begin... As for not actually carrying every day. That's probably true. I carry an M-4, 210 rounds of .223, an M-9, 45-60 rounds for it, while wearing 40# of body armor, my ALSE vest, my flight helmet and a 40# aid bag. Can I bring that to a match? When I get off work, what's in the glove box? My STI Edge or a 5" SA 1911. Why? It's what I have and it's what I shoot. As for not having a gaming mentality, I'd like to flash back to the late 90's when IDPA had its inception. First match that I went to and what did I see from the avant guard? First there were both cardboard and lead weights sewn into their vests to get them to clear the pistol faster. Then...there were the guys that had sewn aluminum wire/cabling into their pants pocket so that when do a reload with retention, they can drop the mag into their pocket faster as it held the pocket open. Oh...then there's the lack of range assistance 'cause they're engrossed in the endless 9mm vs. 40 S&W vs. 45 as an adequate round discussion. Lastly, there was the 2 FTDR's that my friend got and no explanation (yep...he was behind concealment...walls are not cover...the whole time). All that being said, it initially soured me to IDPA. However, I moved to KC a couple of years later and met the guys at the Bullet Hole and had a lot of fun. I think I won my first match with them. Can't remember. But it was fun and that's all that mattered. I like the sport and its concept. However, we're being chastised for $1000 pistols? Last time I checked neither Wilson, Baer or Brown have a pistol less than a $1000 on their site. And...I'd be curious if they made weight. Nonetheless, it's a great sport and fun. Unfortunately it's the indviduals you play with that determine it more than anything else because of how arbitrary THEY can dictate the enforcement of them. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 As for not actually carrying every day. That's probably true. I carry an M-4, 210 rounds of .223, an M-9, 45-60 rounds for it, while wearing 40# of body armor, my ALSE vest, my flight helmet and a 40# aid bag. Can I bring that to a match? Sure, it's duty gear. IDPA rules state: Exception – Police or military officers may use their duty rig, but ALL retention features of the holster MUST be used and all belt equipment (mace, handcuffs, etc.) must be present. I don't think anyone would have an issue if you want to carry all that. The M9 can only have 10 rounds in the mag though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 The barrel OD for 9mm guns is the same as .45; however, the hole in the center is smaller. This means more steel left behind and therefore a couple more ounces of weight all else being equal.The weight limits are just lines in the sand. They had to pick something and they did. The 41oz limit will work for LOTS of guns with magwells, adjustable sights, and full length steel guide rods. One place that seems to make the difference is how much frame is cut away in the "window" under the grips. It isn't hard to make weight for most guns, but with as many 1911 components as there are out there someone is going to be affected. I just looked my Colt 38 Super and the OD of the barrel is NOT repeat NOT the same size as a 45 ACP. The bushing is different and the OD of the 9mm or 38 super is smaller than a 45 ACP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 That's cool. I have a SERPA holster thigh holster. I'm so in there. (trying to lighten the mood) Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 In the time I have been reading here, these are the changes that the "experts" have suggested: no tac reload no reload with retention allow speed reloads no cover calls, use fault lines no weight limit no limit on holsters no behind the center line for holsters or mags no two mags on the belt limit no prohibition on lightening slides no limit on modifications no 10 round limit on loading mags no scenario descriptions no limit on rounds in a COF string no limits on steel in a COF no tactical sequence allow air gunning allow pinned grip safeties no limit on barrel length, especially for revolvers allow porting no boxing of guns, i.e. no size limit if it is concealable, it is okay and last but not least, no FTDR There are probably a lot more, but these are the ones I could come up with in a few minutes of snooping around. Sounds like USPSA with vests to me. Ken Reed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 I'll agree on the following: no tac reload - if this is the reload where I'm still holding a mag in my hand and reloading, then yes. Why? I'm reloading. I understand the concept of retaining "that extra round that might save your life" and, in concept, reloading with retention is good, but please clarify this. no reload with retention - see above allow speed reloads - By this I'm guessing you mean dropping a mag with rounds still in it. Well, because the game (and don't lose sight of that) is meant to be "tactical" then yes I'd agree to not allow this. But dropping an empty mag ('cause you can count) is completely acceptable to me. no cover calls, use fault lines - If anyone has a problem with this they're not too bright. no weight limit - I agree to this. I'm 6'-3" and 230-ish. I carry 260# soldiers and their gear, I think I can quite effectively carry a 40-ish oz. pistol without anyone knowing. no limit on holsters - I agree that no race holsters should be allowed, but restricting a holster that allows for adjustability and a "race" holster are two seperate things. Set physical parameters (which I think is what IDPA is doing now) and roll with it. I think what was pissing people off was the approved holster list (i.e. not by Wilson and partners). no behind the center line for holsters or mags - Agree that this is stupid. It does have to be concealed after all. no two mags on the belt limit - Yes and no. I'd say that since the COF will almost never call for a need of more than 20-ish rounds that there's no need for more than 2 extra mags. no prohibition on lightening slides - I'd say you can lighten a slide, but no external holes not inherent to the design of the pistol (i.e. you can't do what EGW, Brazos and Bedell do but you can machine esthetic features into the pistol that don't add "holes" to the pistol). no limit on modifications - Agree with this completely, so long as the pistol presents a "stock" appearance. Ambi-safeties, beavertails, grips, serrations, checkering, finishes, sights, etc. are all acceptable mods. Bull barrels and FLGR's are fine too. It's personal preference. no 10 round limit on loading mags - Yes and no on this, especially after the sunset. Glock 19's and 23's can hold more than 10 and still be flush with the base of the frame. But then is it fair for pistols that don't have as many hi-cap options? Probably not, but then how's that the shooter's fault. Course design can usually fix this anyways. no scenario descriptions - They're kind of cheesy, but if done correctly make it fun. no limit on rounds in a COF string - Depends how it's laid out, but agree that there should be a limit. no limits on steel in a COF - Meaning no limit on the amount? I'd like to think that y'all would want more. Steel is definitive accuracy vs. area shooting on paper like many do. no tactical sequence - Again, because IDPA's game is to be 'tactically sound' there should penalties for not engaging targets in the "right" order. allow air gunning - Umm...I'm guessing this is stage walk throughs. If this is going to be the rule then expect fewer people to help tape for the first few shooters and make all stages "mystery". allow pinned grip safeties - What if you have a permanently disabled/fixed grip safety 1911? no limit on barrel length, especially for revolvers - See concealability. There's a limit and it's probably around 4". allow porting - Well, it's a matter of preference, but you could always throw in a rule saying if you have a ported gun you have to shoot without hearing protection. I'm all for no porting though. no boxing of guns, i.e. no size limit - This is good, but what are you trying to prevent (I'm curious)? if it is concealable, it is okay - Yes within limits. That's what the RO & MD's are there for. However, if someone wants to bring The Terminator out there, then definitely it's not realistic. However, is it conceavable then that say a 5', 85# female would be allowed to conceal or as effectively conceal the same 5" pistol that I could? and last but not least, no FTDR - The issue here is not that it's wrong, it's that it's arbitrary. Find two people that will make the same call from two different states and we'll talk. That is one nice part of USPSA is so much of it is black & white. You know when you're over a line or tip toeing it. Clarity is all the shooters are asking for. Clarity in the decision (i.e. why it was made) and clarity in the enforcement of it. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 (edited) Where to begin...As for not actually carrying every day. That's probably true. I carry an M-4, 210 rounds of .223, an M-9, 45-60 rounds for it, while wearing 40# of body armor, my ALSE vest, my flight helmet and a 40# aid bag. Can I bring that to a match? You carry 7X30 round AR mags loaded to capacity? Who tought you that? I like the sport and its concept. However, we're being chastised for $1000 pistols? Last time I checked neither Wilson, Baer or Brown have a pistol less than a $1000 on their site. And...I'd be curious if they made weight. Nonetheless, it's a great sport and fun. Unfortunately it's the indviduals you play with that determine it more than anything else because of how arbitrary THEY can dictate the enforcement of them. Nobody is chastising someone for buying $1000 guns. Everyone knew there was a new set of rules coming. So going out to buy a gun specifically for the sport you right before the new rules comes out is STUPID. Please, are you that ignorant to not know that the weight of each of these high dollar Nighthawk Customcustom guns are listed on the websites and or in the catalogs? Even if they aren't wouldn't be wise to check if you plan to buy one to shoot competition? Here, I'll help you. Here's a few. Oh yeah, FYI There are Wilson Combat pistols that are not IDPA legal. Wilson Combat Ed Brown Kimber 99% of the people who participate in IDPA don't have a problem with the rules. For the rest, vote with your wallet and your feet. Simple as that. Edited October 14, 2006 by Duane Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 7-30 round mags....basic combat load for the Army = 210 rounds. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 7-30 round mags....basic combat load for the Army = 210 rounds.Rich Funny, we were taught 7x28 if you wanted reliability. Whatever works for you bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 11, 2006 Author Share Posted October 11, 2006 99% of the people who participate in IDPA don't have a problem with the rules. I know a lot of people that regularly participate in IDPA, and I hear a lot of complaining..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Complaining about the rules is something to occupy yourself with while you are not shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Yep, there are some rules in IDPA that don't make sense to me. I would propose one weight limit for all guns, or one weight limit for semi-autos and one for wheelguns. But folks, as they stand now, them be the rules. You either play by 'em, or you skirt the system, but don't you EVER complain about getting caught, because you knew the rules and you took your chances. If that's you, just remember, news like that spreads pretty fast. And it will follow you back to your local club and/or to the next major match. (Mnnn...the three fastest forms of communication are: television, telephone, and tell-a-shooter. LOL) At the Badlands, OK, match, all of our guns got weighed and all of our vest, holster, and mag pouches got checked. MD had a 3/4" diameter dowel too. 6 rounds of our ammo was "sampled" but never really chrono'ed for the match. I think it was just a ploy to scare the gamers, or if someone complained about shooter X's gun not recoiling or muzzle flipping the way they think it should. Chills RAMIG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f250sd Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 99% of the people who participate in IDPA don't have a problem with the rules. I know a lot of people that regularly participate in IDPA, and I hear a lot of complaining..... The constant complaining and odd-ball rules and inconsistancy is why i don't shoot IDPA much anymore. I belive its more than 50% of the shooters have a problem with the rules and another 40% don't know the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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