9mm Major

[tightloop]

Someone give me the scoop...why was is approved to make 9mm major in Open and not anywhere else? what was the thinking from the Brain Trust?

[lynn jones]

165 power factor is the only reason.

lynn

[Micah]

I've pondered this myself, and my line of thinking is that it will reduce the amount of people declaring major 9 at club matches.

The other may be that the pressure without a comp/port is too high for USPSA's taste.

[AikiDale]

Good question! I've often wondered about this myself. If I can get 170 out of my open gun why not in a limited? Colonel Cooper wanted the bigger hole to be major,i.e., .45 and 9mm to be minor and I tend to agree if the diameter or mass of the bullet is a factor. But if it is to be determined by PF then caliber should be consistent throughout the Divisions and if little holes count in Open they should also count for major in Limited, L-10 and Revolver.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Back in the day in order to squelch the equipment race, and with higher powerfactors (175) there was no 9mm caliber that could safely make major out of a limited gun. So the .400 rule came into being. Since calibers like the 9x23 and 357SIG have came into being. While in open class the powerfactor was reduced and 9x21 was perfectly legal for use it kid of made it pretty stupid for the 9x19 to not be counted.

[Flexmoney]

Someone give me the scoop...why was is approved to make 9mm major in Open and not anywhere else? what was the thinking from the Brain Trust?

TL, were you around when people were getting pissed with the ever changing race of equipment?

[Alan Meek]

Expanding on Flex's equipment race.

Allowing .355 to make major in Limited would turn the Limited, Limited-10 divisons in to .355 divisions. All of our current shooters would be pissed and upset that they would have to get a new gun in a new caliber to be competitive.

[uscbigdawg]

Expanding on Flex's equipment race.

Allowing .355 to make major in Limited would turn the Limited, Limited-10 divisons in to .355 divisions. All of our current shooters would be pissed and upset that they would have to get a new gun in a new caliber to be competitive.

I know I'd quit USPSA instantly and can say that it'd be pretty well splitsville for a ton of shooters, sponsors and vendors.

Rich

[BrianH]

Expanding on Flex's equipment race.

Allowing .355 to make major in Limited would turn the Limited, Limited-10 divisons in to .355 divisions. All of our current shooters would be pissed and upset that they would have to get a new gun in a new caliber to be competitive.

I know I'd quit USPSA instantly and can say that it'd be pretty well splitsville for a ton of shooters, sponsors and vendors.

Rich

That already happened, with the 1911's shooting 160's back in the late 80's to the P9's in the early 90's. By the time it came back those guns that people paid to build we no longer competitive. I'm sure we did lose a lot of shooters over that. Although I'm sure we lost many more shooters when the mag length rule was lifted just so Chip McCormick could make a fortune selling the STI frame. I've always imagined the frustration of the guy finally getting his $4000 Richard Heinie open gun he waited 5 years for only to find everyone shooting hi cap guns.

[Nik Habicht]

Someone give me the scoop...why was is approved to make 9mm major in Open and not anywhere else? what was the thinking from the Brain Trust?

IIRC, back in the day of the 175 power factor there were no powders available that could safely load the 9x19 to major at factory length. For some reason, the Board decided to outlaw 9mm major unless it was loaded long ---- 1.250, to be precise.

Over in Limited, when the dust settled from the introduction of the widebodies and the .40 cartridge, the rules were created or amended to require a .40 diameter bullet for major, so that people wouldn't have to go through another gear change to get an additional 4-5 rounds in the gun......

Power factors dropped to 165 for major across the board, powders got better, several people shooting open with longloaded 9mm Major guns approached the Board with some research utilizing modern powders, and the 9x19 was declared to be legal for major in Open division only, even in non 1911 (read standard length) guns.....

Why not in Limited? To keep people from having to buy new gear....

[Alan Meek]

Nik,

actually they were able to make major using WW-540 (HS-6) at standard 9X19 lengths.

The USPSA Board at the time was presented with a scenario of the Major 9 loads were a liability. A well known gun writer picked up some rounds from one of the top shooters and sent them to Accurate Arms Powder for pressure testing. The Accurate Arms facility was not able to pressure test the majority of the rounds as they did not fit into the pressure barrel.

The Majority of the MAjor 9 shooters were using Springfields P-9. At the time the only other Hi-Cap option was the Para with mag modifications that cost $120 a mag to have .45 mags modified to shoot .38Super.

The OAL restriction was enacted so a casual shooter would not be able to pick up a round and chamber it in a 9mm and have the gun blow up.

The board acting(Knee Jerked) when they banned 9x19 for major at std length was donewith no research other than what was presented to them at that moment.

Alan

[HSMITH]

I just started shooting IPSC/USPSA recently, so I really don't know much about anything, but......

I started in Limited, because locally it was the deep end of the pool. Plenty of good shooters to use as a bar, and the equipment I had sort of fit. I had a full custom built about 9 months into shooting matches. I could have built anything I wanted, after all what would another couple hundred or even a thousand make when spending the money it takes to get into an STI/SVI when starting from scratch, complete with mags, holsters, etc? It wouldn't have been a big deal to build an Open gun over a Limited gun. I had a Limited gun built because the division seemed more stable in terms of 'state of the art equipment', the rules were stable from what I could determine. It didn't look like things were going to change soon, and if they did the hi-cap 40 I had built would likely still be competitive. Lots of the same things are probably true about Open class, but just the possibilities in Open guns were mind boggling (still are, really). Limited seemed like a safer bet to me knowing I would buy once and shoot it for a couple years at least.

Limited is good as is, I would like to see it stay as is for a long time to come. If there are any major changes I would like to see a 2 year notice, like a notice that 'in '09 .355" will be legal'. If notice was provided I don't see how any one could complain........

[AikiDale]

Expanding on Flex's equipment race.

That already happened, with the 1911's shooting 160's back in the late 80's to the P9's in the early 90's. By the time it came back those guns that people paid to build we no longer competitive. I'm sure we did lose a lot of shooters over that. Although I'm sure we lost many more shooters when the mag length rule was lifted just so Chip McCormick could make a fortune selling the STI frame. I've always imagined the frustration of the guy finally getting his $4000 Richard Heinie open gun he waited 5 years for only to find everyone shooting hi cap guns.

Slight thread drift suggested here. When the mag length was lifted is that when the box went away? IPSC still has the box to maintain size and the STI frame is still in use.

Maybe we need a History Channel Thread?

[Alan Meek]

IMHO USPSA did not use the box as this would have been closing the barn door after the horse had gotten out.

USPSA Limited Division shooters already had mags that would not fit the box and rather than enfore the box USPSA came out with the gauge that was designed to fit the Mags.

Alan

[MasterLefty]

..... When the mag length was lifted is that when the box went away? ....

At the time we went to the 140/170 rule, there was no box. The requirement was that the magazine had to be flush with the bottom of the gun (not counting any magwells).

----------------------------------

Back to our regularly scheduled thread.

.335 almost made it as major in Limited. The original ruling that came out of the proposed tactical division (and later called limited) was that in order to be declared major you needed three manufacturers supplyling ammunition that made 175 pf. (Cor-bon didn't count, they had to be from the big companies, i.e. Federal, Winchester, Remington, etc) If anyone remembers, there was a lot of debate if the .40S&W would make the declared power. IIRC at first only the 180gr factory stuff made major.

Back to 9mm, instead of going with the 9x21, S&W decided to chamber their pistols in 9x21.5 or 9TSW. They had two manufacturers on board and almost had the third ready to start manufacturing, when USPSA imposed the .40 diameter ruling.

[this is just my opinion]

I think the whole reason to ban 9 major in open was because the only guns worthy (i.e gained capacity) of running 9 major were small frame high caps and Bill Wilson had a 2M/year parts business (and a few others) selling to the 1911 market. If we allowed Major 9, then everyone would have been buying Springfield P9's. (I did and put away my hi-power and went back to major. I use to run the hi-power major at 170, but when we went to 175 the hi-power would not survive the punishment.)

[end opinion]

Kenny

[lynn jones]

btw.. way late on the question, tl. lol

[shred]

The 170mm / 140mm magazine rules, as can be surmised from the metric basis, originated with IPSC, not USPSA. It took effect (USPSA adopted it) in 1/1/1993 and replaced a gawd-awful mess of rules around factory baseplates and OEMs and 'profiles' and 'flush-fitting' and exactly what 'extended' meant and so on (sounds like IPSC production today) Check an original STI basepad for the 1992 gamer version of "non-extended, flush-fitting" magazines.

Limited/Standard has been .40 or better from the beginning, also defined by IPSC, with minor exceptions for .357 Mag in revolvers.

Both of these were defined at a 1992 IPSC world body meeting, and they cared not a whit about CMC / STI or Caspian.

[DanM]

Expanding on Flex's equipment race.

Allowing .355 to make major in Limited would turn the Limited, Limited-10 divisons in to .355 divisions. All of our current shooters would be pissed and upset that they would have to get a new gun in a new caliber to be competitive.

No I wouldn't, I already shoot 9mm in L-10

How wierd, I was just thinking about this same thing on the way home from a match today. I'm seriously thinking of getting a 9mm open gun and was wondering what the reasoning was behind the rule.

[Jim Norman]

As it stands today, anyone can shoot 9mm in any divison. It is only in Open that you will make Major PF. If we allow 9mm Major in Limited, it will make a major change to how the sport is run. Today the maximum round count in Limited, shooting Major, is probably 22 rounds. If we allow for 9mm Major, the maximun shots will increase by 2-4 rounds. This will mean that almost anyone that wants to reamin competative will have to reconfigure their equipment, likely by buying a new gun.

This is not something that the sport needs. It is also fraught with danger.

If we have 9mm factory length loads left on the range, someone will eventually run one through a gun that just won't take the preasure.

There is no change to the game by allowing 9mm major in Open, since there is no increase in round capacity.

Jim

[blkbrd]

What powders do we run in limited? As fast as we can get away with. IE 320, Tightgroup, Clays ext.

In Open we run much slower powders to work the comp. with a slower pressure curve. Think what would happen if you tried to get tightgroup to make major 9???

I just blew another major 9mm case this weekend, 5 total in 2 years, I still believe it was the Glockified once fired????case and not 9mm pressure problems. Loading long its the same as 9x21 or 23.

You could make major in 9 using limited loads and fast powders IE Corbon but you would have to use new cases at almost the same cost as super or 9x21-23.

The equipment race would be an expensive nightmare.

[blkbrd]

What powders do we run in limited? As fast as we can get away with. IE 320, Tightgroup, Clays ext.

In Open we run much slower powders to work the comp. with a slower pressure curve. Think what would happen if you tried to get tightgroup to make major 9???

I just blew another major 9mm case this weekend, 5 total in 2 years, I still believe it was the Glockified once fired????case and not 9mm pressure problems. Loading long its the same as 9x21 or 23.

You could make major in 9 using limited loads and fast powders IE Corbon but you would have to use new cases at almost the same cost as super or 9x21-23.

The equipment race would be an expensive nightmare.