Concealed Carry Technique

[xsrdx]

If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.

....and in so doing,  accept the consequences. Tough to maintain your moral objectivity inside the Big House.

Ol' Bob (we were close) wrote some great stuff, armed and polite that he was, but that line could have easily come from Tony Soprano, John Gotti, or Ted Bundy.

I'll stay out of those places, and limit myself to areas of the country where free men are still free.

That's a much better solution than carrying in defiance of local laws.  Heinlein would likely approve.

[jhgtyre]

Doing what is right regardless of the consequences is not the same as commiting crimes against others regardless of the consequences.

If I choose to carry in a place or situation that is deemed improper based upon some arbitrary rule I have not harmed anyone except for, potentially, myself.  If Gotti takes a hit out on someone he and the hitman have harmed someone else.  That is a huge difference and that is what makes it a moral dillema as opposed to merely a legal problem.

[Duane Thomas]

Well spoken. Beat me to it.

What we have here is, I believe, a difference in personality types. If you read my post on the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator - somewhere on the monster this forums board has become - you'll remember the last of the four personality areas is Judge or Perceiver.

Judges tend to have an innate respect for, and be very comfortable operating within, previously existing rule structures. Perceivers, while they also respect sensible rules and understand their necessity to a well-ordered culture, have no particular love for silly laws. In a way this is ironic, for they're being more "judgmental" and discriminating than the Judges!

There is a tendency not to understand or respect where someone with a basically different world view is coming from. Judges tend to see Perceivers as dangerous rule breakers, borderline criminals - if not in actuality, then certainly in potential Ted Bundies. Perceivers see Judges as having obviated their responsibility to decide the morality of any particular action, turning that over to those in power - stiff-necked Nazis standing before the Neuremberg trials saying, "I was just following orders."

In reality, certainly in regards to anyone participating in this discussion, that's not true in either case. Judges and Perceivers are neither innately criminals nor Nazis. You could, in all probability, trust either type person with your wallet. They just react very differently to the idea of stupid laws, and how much respect they deserve.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 6:40 pm on Sep. 11, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

Oh, one thing worth mentioning:

"....and in so doing,  accept the consequences. Tough to maintain your moral objectivity inside the Big House."

Except in someplace like NYC (lesson: stay out of New York City), we're talking misdemeanor territory here.  No one's going to the "Big House" over this one.

[bonedaddy]

"God bless Wyoming, and keep it wild."   Helen Mettler, age 15................Last entry in her diary, 1925.

Thanks, Helen.   It's still a great place!

[xsrdx]

No one's going to the "Big House" over this one.

Hyperbole to make a point. In fact, my guess is typically, unless you're doing something wrong IN ADDITION to carrying the gun, you might not even get arrested - just sent packing, so to speak.

Given the wrong arresting officer, the wrong DA, and the wrong judge, though, an otherwise law abiding citizen could find himself in an exceedingly unpleasant situation, simply for exercising certain inalienable rights.

lesson: stay out of New York City

Good advice, for a number of reasons.

[Flexmoney]

It is a felony in Ohio.

[Duane Thomas]

"Hyperbole to make a point."

I figured. Please understand that when you - or anyone - exaggates a supporting argument to the point of hyperbole, it doesn't make your point. It weakens it. And you do have a valid point, that if an otherwise law abiding person chooses to carry a gun when and where the law says they shouldn't, they have to be ready to take the consequences if caught. No one is arguing that. The debate is over whether or not such a person is acting in a reckless, immoral fashion.

"Given the wrong arresting officer, the wrong DA, and the wrong judge, though, an otherwise law abiding citizen could find himself in an exceedingly unpleasant situation, simply for exercising certain inalienable rights."

Well, yes and no. Unpleasant, sure. Exceedingly? Nope. They might find themselves convicted of a misdemeanor. No jail time, in all probability no fine. They'd probably lose their gun - which, as you said, given the wrong judge, was probably going to happen anyway. Minor stuff. Unless of course you're in Ohio (note to self: stay out of Ohio).

[xsrdx]

Well, yes and no. Unpleasant, sure. Exceedingly? Nope.

If being arrested, detained, having your gun confiscated , and getting a shiny new criminal record isn't exceedingly unpleasant, then your worldview and mine are clearly divergent.

And in some areas - more than we'd probably suspect - like it or not, carrying a gun illegally is a FELONY, meaning YOU'LL GIVE UP YOUR RIGHT TO OWN A GUN, FOREVER.

Still willing to take that risk? Again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

As to my use of exaggeration, you're nitpicking - while an arrest for illegal CCW may not lead to The Big House in every circumstance, it very well might often enough to make the comment suitable.

The debate is over whether or not such a person is acting in a reckless, immoral fashion

Bingo - back to your argument regarding perception. What are the consequences of your moral, but illegal, action? Do they affect anyone else? If you go to jail, or pay a fine, or lose your guns, or your job, is anybody else affected? If not, you may have a valid argument that your actions were in fact morally justified.

If, however, your choice to violate an immoral law results in the loss of a job, father, husband, whatever -then the choice is not made in a vacuum and you impact others through your actions.

[Ron Ankeny]

Reminds me of my college days, steeped in deep philosphical thought over civil disobedience. Time to read Thoreau again...

[Duane Thomas]

I think it's about time we just agree to disagree. I'm not changing my mind, you're not changing yours, and never the twain shall meet. And that's fine.

[xsrdx]

I was hoping this thread would get me from "Gatherer" to "Jedi Knight", or at least be good for one more dot under my name.

[Duane Thomas]

Hah! Sorry to wimp out on you.

So....how about those Seattle Mariners! Anyone out there think they'll EVER beat the Yankees for the AL pennant? Hope springs eternal in the Washingtonian's breast - but I'm not counting on it.

[the duck of death]

*QUOTE*

If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.

....and in so doing,  accept the consequences. Tough to maintain your moral objectivity inside the Big House.

And even more difficult when under the sod.

[SiG Lady]

Hmmm... a hot 'n heavy thread........

Bumper sticker seen at gun show: "Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Going 'round and 'round dept:

Fellow shooter and I poking about with the county and my local banking institution about whether 'carry' in a bank location was legal or not... Bank claimed they had a company policy against 'carry' inside their premises; county sez that's not the law as far as they're concerned. After much discussion with bank manager, she said, "Well, if you're carrying concealed and I can't see it then it doesn't matter anyway after all."

PS--I've been waiting for approximately 20 years for the Mariners to make it.  Still waiting.

(Edited by SiG Lady at 7:56 am on Sep. 20, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

Are you in Washington state? Maybe I'll see you at a match!

[SiG Lady]

Used to be.  Too cold, too wet.  Nice people though.

[EricW]

Sig Lady's from Eugene??!!!??!!

My gawd - a freakin' Birkenstock clopping, hippie liberal trotting around on the Forums!!!  Next we're going to a members from EarthFirst! and the Animal Liberation Front....  What's the world coming to?  

(Just funning ya' SigLady....   )

E

[SiG Lady]

You'd BETTER be funnin' me!

Jeez, just to be a shooter in this Vortex of Confusion (Eugene) is to keep your mouth shut. Oooooohhh... guns.... bad!!!  Jeez.

But there are a LOT of shooters here... a lot more than the hippies know about. Movers and shakers who are shooters. Enough said.

We have the occasional, spontaneous carjacking here, too. That was my original "carry" concern. My car is my space and I want to keep it that way.

This also seems to be the bank robbery capital of the universe, too, and hence the research into the bank-premises-carry. The jury is still out about that issue... whether or not I can "carry" into my banking institution. If we ever figure this one out, I'll post it.

[EricW]

I'm just funnin' ya.  I live in Vancouver, so I'm not far removed from the graduates of the University of Absurdity...er...Oregon.  I applaud you for your tenacity in the face of adversity.  

Hopefully, we'll see you at a match up this way soon.

E

[Carlos]

Good on you SigLady!! Spent 2 great years at that hippie haven U of O. Honestly, there are to many wonderful things about Eugene to list. You are blessed and lucky to live there.

Strangely though, there seemed to be an unusually high level of sexual assaults in Eugene - perhaps because of all the drugged-out transients (transients are sort of like what we call the "homeless" here in the east, only they are young, able bodied people with backpacks and dogs instead of shopping carts). More carry permits in the hands of capable women would certainly put a swift stop to the high level of assaults!- BTW, is "Zeus" still prowling around by U of O?

It would be great if more of the feminist crowd at the University realized that shall issue carry laws actually empower womyn against our male-dominate, fallo-centric, patriarchal culture. (I can't believe I used the word "empower"!). Seriously, I do miss Eugene and I am glad to hear there is someone sane like you living out there.  

[EricW]

I went to an ultra liberal private university out here in the great Northwest.  Finally, enough weird s*** happened that my old roomate convinced me to get my carry permit.  (At first, I was ADAMANTLY opposed to carrying a gun.  I considered it to be just looking for trouble.) Then I started paying attention a little better.  It turned out that LOTS of students were equally weirded out and were packing.  Some of us just kind of found each other and started hanging out.  

Several of them were people you *never* would have pegged for owning a gun.  They're out there, you just might not know it.

E

[SiG Lady]

ErikW & Carlos...

After about 10yrs here in Blue-gene, I realized it was (among other things) the bank robbery capital of the galaxy and, yes, also had a blatantly embarrassing high incidence of gender-related assaults in public places where this sort of thing should NOT be happening. Again, this IS a shall-issue state and "reasons of personal defense" is considered a VERY legitimate reason for applying for the CCW. And the local indoor range is very accommodating in offering frequent (and high quality) classes in basic handling and safety, so... there's no excuse. I just wish I could do more to promote handgun use and awareness (and the sport!) in local women without getting thrown off the board of directors of my local women's business group. There's a bit of unecessary sensitivity to the issue around here. There was even one of those "Mother's Against Guns-n-Stuff" marches this spring and, boy, I didn't want to get into it with THEM in a public place.

Erik:  (Which "ultra-liberal" did you attend...?  I 'did' Evergreen in WA.)

Eugene IS an attractive place to live; the weather is temperate, the population is still low, but the economy is horrid and is now considered one of the nation's most expensive places to live (outside of SFO). We also have (at last count) several thousand homeless people and a few other chronic problems with transients and panhandling. As an Interstate-5 corridor community, I don't think this can be avoided. People routinely get their throats slit, get shot, get whacked out on drugs and just plain get crazy. The U/O students (about 1,500 of 'em) started a riot--complete with bonfires in the street, etc.--just two nights ago. No mention of gun-toting students, though. Thank God. THAT issue would've brought out the REAL crazies.

OK, enough of our problems. We DO have a happy little shooting community of savvy, hip business people, though, and we seem to be the other side of the Eugene coin. The sane side.

[SiG Lady]

Moreover...

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."

--The Dalai Lama

(Guns & Ammo Magazine, December 2001, p.19)

[Carlos]

U of O riots? No surprise the U of O students are still at it. They were rioting back in 1989 when I was there! Sorry to hear about the cost of living; used to be the other way around. Must be the californicators at work.

Not too surprised about the drug crazed lunatics comment either; I remember Oregon being 3rd in the nation in crystal meth production in the 90s even though the population was less than that of Rhode Island! (lotsa room for labs I suppose). That junk really seems to lead people to loose it in really violent ways; good thing you take precautions like packing. Stay safe and keep your powder dry! -Douglas

PS Go Ducks!