JohnRodriguez Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Well I guess this whole murse deal had someone mad enough to fill a protest at the nationals. If you or anyone else want to be at the center of contravesy (what spelling) contact Rudy Warren owner of Billy Bullets at 480-695-8100, and you to can be just like all the AZ revo shooters. They make convenient places for bottomfeeding shooter to put empty soda cans, trash and other odds and end into them. out here in AZ and NM we shoot enough stages with no ammo on your belt that these bags were thought of besides putting spent moonclips. That or carry a cheap construction nail bag you can pickup at home depot in your range bag, but i've seen ro's not allow them since they aren't on you at all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzShooter Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Like John says, get one from Rudy. I've had one for years that I used for archery to hold my release when not in use. You can also get them at any sporting good store. Normally they are used for climbing and holding resin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R112mercer Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I don't remember anybody arb-ing the murse. There were questions as to whether on not the murse was in place the entire match (it was later found out that was the case) as it should be according to the rules. The real question most of us had was why one shooter was allowed to use the murse and others weren't. When the guys started making their murse's the RO told us we couldn't use them, when we knew that another shooter already had used one. We weren't aware that the shooter's murse was a standard piece of his gear, we thought it was something he dug out of his bag prior to the stage. Our logic was that if they had allowed one shooter to do what we THOUGHT he had done, we all should be able to do it. As it was we all shot the stage without a murse with the understanding that if the shooter who had used the murse had indeed added it just for that stage he would be required to re-shoot the stage. It was later found (as you have indicated) that this is something that shooter uses all the time for the entire match. Nobody seemed upset over the whole deal (at least not me), and it was one of the more memorable (and comical) parts of the Nationals. Seeing Jerry furiously duct taping that old bag and having to use the "granny grab" to keep his moons in it was quite a hoot. And then there's Cliff's run... Your pal Rudy must have an inside guy on the stage design team because something tells me he's going to be selling lots of murse's after this last Nationals . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 So murse is a what? A man purse? Were I to carry something of the nature I believe you guys are referring to I would try to figure out something else to call it. Or maybe murse means something other than what it brings to my mind??? I use my "pouch" for the same thing Azshooter does.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R112mercer Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Man purse is exactly it. I think it's from Seinfeld. The actual murse used at the match looks similar to a brass bag (nylon bag with a draw string and mesh bottom) but worn on the belt over to the left of your moonclip holders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I didn't care for that whole silly routine. Anything that could make the match pivot on some little tricky piece of BS is a bad stage idea. I've been to a lot of major USPSA matches all over the country and I've never seen a revolver shooter wearing some big-ass pouch on his belt. Never once. I heard some revo shooters indicating they guessed they would have to go home and design a special pop-top pocket pouch for their shorts for matches with "grab and carry all the ammo" stages. I won't do that, and I certainly hope it never comes to a point where a shooter in cargo pants has a real advantage over a shooter in jeans. Message to stage designers: Keep it about the shooting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 So come up with a better way to solve the stage. I'd say there is lots of room for improvement in moon clip holders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R112mercer Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I tend to agree with you, Mike. What's next, who can dress for the match the fastest? Who can drive to the range fastest? Start position is in your underwear (there's a scary sight!) with hands on drawer with pants in drawer. Drawer is closed. On start signal, retrieve pants and put them on, engage all targets as they become visible, one penalty per shot if zipper is not fully up (Then you'll have gamers with greased zippers, like the Polock who was invited to a cock fight). How about a start with all your ammo in ammo boxes, on start retrieve ammo and place in magazines/moon clips/speed loaders? It wasn't to big a deal for the auto guys, just grab a few mags and go. I doubt any wheelgunners designed this stage. I'm not whining or taking a swipe at the course designers, we all had the same challenge in our respective Divisions, it's just that I'd bet the stage designers didn't think about having to cram 6-8 moons onto those holders under the clock. Ultimately the stage became an easy way to screw up a good shooter over something other than his shooting, which actually happened. Mission accomplished. Incidentally, I liked the stage other than the "all your gear in the basket" crap. Lots of shooting, lots of options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 (edited) Edited September 19, 2006 by lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Monkey Motions? Faffing around instead of shooting? Say it isn't so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 The sport was meant to be a test of gear as well as shooting. The Lim10 guys had to grab a bunch of mags and stow them. I think it was a poor stage, but not alltogether unsuitable for a Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzShooter Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Get over it. If you think there was that big of an advantage on one stage you're kidding yourselves. Stop trying to take away from Nil's accomplishments. It wasn't the bag that got him to where he is. Rudy's been selling the Murse for years. Guys have been using them at ICORE matches for a number of years. Guys have been using them at USPSA matches also. Before anyone should have complained about a preceived advantage they should have checked to see if the equipment was used for the entire match before going to any type of arbitration. Hey, I didn't think about it so it must be unfair... As Jeff Cooper once said " Fair is a word made up by children to taunt their parents. Life is not fair." Is a Randy trigger unfair to guys that don't have one? There's always something new coming out and here's the latest entry. I'll bet a lot more guys will have them on their belts from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Dude, grabbing two extra mags (that's all it took in L-10) is a whole different ballgame than trying to stow a minimum of five moonclips before loading the gun and running the stage. The L-10 shooter also had the option of leaving a mag up front at the car and retrieving it midway through. (See Julie Goloski's website for an example of that option.) The stage was fine otherwise. It's not that big a deal. It was just very obvious that nobody had quite figured out how to handle the whole situation when it came to the revolver shooters. But as it turned out, the "murse" thing was inconsequential to the final result of the stage, and the match. John Bagakis won the stage easily, by simply playing it straight and shooting cleaner and better. [As a side note: For our upcoming Iowa SS/Revo match, we actually considered a stage design which required the shooter to start with an empty gun and retrieve loose rounds from a bowl. We shitcanned the idea pretty quickly, figuring that maybe some revolver shooters would get tricky and bring a couple of those plastic Rimz moonclips, or maybe some .45 AutoRim rounds, just for that stage. I think we made the right decision.] We didn't like the idea of a stage (and potentially, the match) being won or lost on the basis of something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 (edited) Stop trying to take away from Nil's accomplishments. It wasn't the bag that got him to where he is. Whoa now. Let's hold on just a second here. Nobody is saying anything negative about Nils. He has received nothing but universal accolades from everybody at the match. And nobody mentioned his name regarding this issue until you did just now, Steve. There was no protest. There was no arbitration. There was no controversy on any serious level. One very experienced and reasonable shooter simply voiced to the match staff that it ought to be the same for everybody. The decision was made to confirm that, everybody shot, that was the end of it (other than maybe a bit of joking around about "murses" and whatnot here on the internet, with no mention of any names). I'm certain that the only thing that happened is that a match official approached Nils to confirm that he had worn the device throughout the entire match--otherwise, he was going to be given an opportunity to re-shoot the stage without it, as all the rest of us had been required to do. But as it turned out, there was no problem. And as it turned out, it was inconsequential to the final results anyway. I really think you have received some inaccurate information about what happened. I can understand feeling the need to defend a great young shooter at his first Nationals, but please trust me on this, he was never under attack--and especially not from the other wheelgunners. The only mild criticism leveled in this discussion (by me and Rob) is directed toward the general issue of stage design. Go back and read our posts. It is unfortunate that this thread was ever started. There is not a problem here, so please let's not create one. Edited September 19, 2006 by Carmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 .......................................[As a side note: For our upcoming Iowa SS/Revo match, we actually considered a stage design which required the shooter to start with an empty gun and retrieve loose rounds from a bowl. We shitcanned the idea pretty quickly, figuring that maybe some revolver shooters would get tricky and bring a couple of those plastic Rimz moonclips, or maybe some .45 AutoRim rounds, just for that stage. I think we made the right decision.] ........................................................... Or a 686....Dern there goes my edge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Or a 686....Dern there goes my edge... You and them "murse-fart" minor loads..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 The problem with such stages, at least as far as wheelgunners are concerned, is that loading your belt becomes too much of the stage score. I timed shooters in our squad. 13-14 seconds to the first shot. At 40 seconds for a good run, that becomes 35 percent of the stage time. Limited and Lim-10 shooters look at it as a minor annoyance. A good time for the GMs in Limited was mid to upper 20's. For the Lim-10 crowd, right around 30 seconds. Anyone care to wager that Blake Miguez (to pick a name) spent just over eight whole seconds to his first shot? Or that Max Michel spent just under nine and a half seconds getting geared up? I thought not. No one ever used the "C" word on Nils. We just wanted a level field, equipment-wise. You can bet that for every match to come, at the moment a stage description says "Load all ammunition from table/box/etc" the murses will come out. And be worn the whole match. That's just the nature of competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 (edited) I'm not so sure the "murse" was that big of an advantage. I had decided not to use one of the makeshift versions even before the determination was made by match staff. Loading the murse initially would be faster, of course, but then each and every reload is slowed down, at least by some increment, by having to reach into the bag (a different location than the shooter is accustomed to reaching) and pull out a moonclip, and orient it correctly to the gun. I decided I would be better off taking a little extra time up front and get the ammo on the holders, then shoot the the course normally. Unfortunately, my hands got really fumbly when the buzzer went off and I took much more time than necessary to put 5 or 6 moons on the holders. Bagakis figured out a good smooth and fast way of handling the moons, and executed his plan nicely, and he won the stage by more than 4% with great hits. With no murse. Once again, this whole issue turned out to be a moot point, and everybody pretty much forgot about it. Edited September 19, 2006 by Carmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 And till now I thought a Murse was a male Nurse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffwalsh Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Get over it. If you think there was that big of an advantage on one stage you're kidding yourselves. Stop trying to take away from Nil's accomplishments. It wasn't the bag that got him to where he is. Before anyone should have complained about a preceived advantage they should have checked to see if the equipment was used for the entire match before going to any type of arbitration. For a guy who was not there, you have a lot to say. all of it wrong. Ask Nils how he was treated. Everyone was happy to meet the boy wonder. Most guys went out of their way to say hello once they knew who he was. He has not been around so only a few even knew what he looked like. Everyone was very pleased with his accomplishment. If you read back, we were discussing him winning second based on his great job at the IRC. He had beat Dan, John, and I by a good margin so we expected it again. THERE WAS NO ARBITRATION!!!! The RO's on the stage were going to let everyone hang a bag on their belt. As long as it was a brass bag or a water bottle bag it was ok. Our squad asked for clarification from the RM and got the ruling that we could not. We thought that the RO's had let all the other shooters add equipment so we asked that they reshoot. We could have all used a bag if we followed the RO's instructions. We are the ones who made sure the proper rules were obeyed. The RM left and all we heard back was that Nils used the bag the whole match. That was the end, there were no challenges. Before you accuse, you really should get the facts. We await your apology!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 (edited) DAyummmmnnn.... Like..Lets chill....Dudes.... Posted by Merlin on Benny's box.... Edited September 19, 2006 by benny hill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Cliff We had been wondering what had happened. Nls was shooting on 3 or 4. On his squad he was the first shooter on that stage. He had been called to shoot and was standing ready on the stage, waiting for "Load and make ready". In the middle of the mental prep that we all do, the RM pulls Nils off the stage and tells him that he has to reshoot 14. So Nils deals with that - a bit of a discussion. He is still the first shooter up. After the RM leaves, Nils is standing there scratching his head about what caused this, figuring somebody, somewhere must have filed a written protest for the RM to actually pull a shooter off the line. He walks back on the stage and the RO continues with the LAMR. He shoots the stage and the match continues. Anyway, that's what happened from Nils' end. It was good to be at the Nationals. Its a fine group of shooters and the revoguys are first class folks. We are hoping that next year the revo participation will be even more than this year. Revolver is a great division and it's great to see match participation grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffwalsh Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 The real problem was the RO's interpreting the rules. What almost happened was the three revo squads were going to receive the unfair advantage. We were lucky that Troy was on the stage so we got him involved in the discussion and the rules were properly administered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 A good thing that happend because it was real easy to misunderstand the situation as it was unfolding. And, once again CONGRTAULATIONS on you GM card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzShooter Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 For a guy who was not there, you have a lot to say. all of it wrong. I didn't have to be there. I'm going by what was stated on this forum. We could have all used a bag if we followed the RO's instructions. We are the ones who made sure the proper rules were obeyed. The RM left and all we heard back was that Nils used the bag the whole match. That was the end, there were no challenges. BTW an RO, I don't know which one walked up to Nils right before he was ready to shoot another stage, at the LAMR point and told him he had to reshoot the stage in question. Bad timing. Before you accuse, you really should get the facts. We await your apology!!! I have no reason to apologize for what has been written. It's my view of what I've been reading here on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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