Is "minor" Really Competitive?

[markd]

I am returning to IPSC after many years of lay off. My beloved .38super is now only legal in open class. SO now what? Is it really possible or likely to shoot minor power factor in L10 or single stack and really be competitive? I know, I know.....lots of folks are doing it but really..... are they winning or just playing for fun? I am sure a truly top shooter could shoot about anything and win. However I do wonder if a standard A class or B class shooter can actually win week in and week out shooting minor? Any experiences or opinions will be appreciated.

[Steve Moneypenny]

This is something that Gary Stevens and I have discussed quite a bit, and he is now shootign a single stack 38 super to test out the theory. Gary is an A class shooter. Maybe his thoughts can chime in here to help you.

My theory states that in USPSA matches 9 round arrays are allowed and by shooting minor you can have 2 more rounds in the gun. (remember after your first 9 rounds you only have 8 in major) but you'll still have 10 in production.

I shot the Summer blast with Scott Warren, who I consider an equally competitive shooter if not better than me. But many stages i had him by 2 and sometimes 3 seconds. he had to execute some funky 8 round arrays. ( no he didn't have bad plans. but had he been able to execute a 10 round plan would have been much closer if not ahead of me)

Now single stack classic (it's made for 8 round mags) that's a whole other story.

I think if you concentrate on your points (not slow down just focus on points) that minor will give you a distinct advantage in all USPSA matches (except of course single stack/nationals)

[markd]

Steve,

Thanks for the info. Do have your buddy share his opinions here if he can. I already have a .38 super I have been running in IDPA. I also have a 1911 .45 or two that would serve well. .40s seem to rule Limited class and are also popular in L10. I would like to keep shooting my super but not at the cost of fighting and uphill battle at every match. SHooting minor has always been a neat idea but I have not had much input from people who actually do it and do it well enough to be really competitive. I just want to know the state of affairs in USPSA today as I get back involved. If shooting minor and winning is not uncommon then sign me up. If however it is mostly a stunt pulled off occasionally by a really good shooter then I will either stick with .45 in single stack or use 10 round .45 mags in L10. All opinions are appreciated.

[dwt]

I'm in A-class in L-10 and every time I do a comparision of my match scores , I lose 40 to 50 points when I shoot minor over major,now thats just me .I have compared some other shooters in my area that do the same and it seems to run about the same for them .

Dale

[markd]

DWT,

Wow, 40 to 50 points is not trivial! It sounds like you may actually be dropping more shots out of the A zone on top of receiving the lower minor score for your Bs and Cs. DO you think minor is causing you to shoot faster and shoot worse or is the points down mainly a result of minor scoring?

[Flexmoney]

Mark,

Questions like your's have been asked here before throughout the years. I've never heard any strong arguement for shooting minor. Ever so often, you get a good story ot two about a good shooter making it work.

You might be able to dig up some of those threads with a good search.

I did find this one, which asks the same question with regards to the new provisional single-stack division. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...AND,competitive

In single-stack, there is likely a better chance of minor being competitive, but that would depend on stage design...and knowing about that design before the match. Even then, I'd want to shoot major.

[dwt]

Mark,

I think its mainly the scoring difference ? I shot Production for awhile and taught myself to shoot A's .It seemed to work out fine when everyone is scored Minor .

Dale

[Steve Moneypenny]

in other divisions there is no doubt that minor is a hindrance.. but in single stack. i know the 2 or 3 matches i saw single stack shooters at it really stunk to only have 8 rounds. there were multiple 9 shot arrays. or requiring you to shoot perfect shots on steel.

[mcoliver]

Shooting minor, you also need to consider how targets are setup in places you shoot. If you get lots of wide open targets at medium to close distance, you don't lose out shooting minor as long as you do your job. But if partials and lots of movers is the norm for your matches, you lose a lot shooting minor against the major-shooting crowd.

[Kevin Kline]

The points are definitely a killer. You drop double the points that guys shooting major do. You can still kind of hose and get 90% of your points, but if you throw a few C's or God forbid a D, you're screwed.

D hit in minor is basically a no penalty mike. I'd stick with shooting major. I think if it was doable and winning, you'd see the big dogs doing it. Plus, when shooting minor, since your load is supposed to recoil so much less, you really start to pick up the pace while shooting and you drop points very quickly.

[Loves2Shoot]

I tried it this last weekend shooting 16 round mags and minor in Limited. You just drop too many points on partials, movers, and time on closer targets IMO. I was shooting pretty good points too, although each stage was 50+ rounds it illustrated how much I was really losing by big point stages. One stage I had 7 C's and got beat by a guy who had a mike and the same time. Not even close to worth it IMO.

[Carmoney]

In any other division, major p.f. is the only way to fly. In Single-Stack, where the scoring difference is offset by an extra two rounds available, it will all depend on the stages at a particular match.

(See my comments in the thread referenced by Flexmoney above.)

[Gary Stevens]

I agree with Steve on his comments. I tried the Super at Area 5 this year, but didn't get a fair test. Half way through the match, I developed a situation of the magazine hitting the sear spring when I did a reload and dropping the hammer to half cock about 80 percent of the time. When I wasn't cocking the hammer, I was spending time looking at the hammer to see if it was cocked or not. Lucky I didn't get sent home early for an AD. Of course the two shots I put into the hardcover on "Pole Cat" didn't help the test much either

I noticed that when using my 45 I was shooting a high percentage of "A" hits. This was probably due to not wanting to do a standing reload if I threw a miss. If I could maintain that percentage of "A" hits and also pick up the two extra rounds, it might be worth the effort. It is a very nice gun to shoot. Fast yet very soft.

Now that I have fixed the sear spring issue, I am still going to try it out in Single Stack and see how it works.

Because of the course design, at a match such as the Single Stack Nationals, I will stay with the 45.

Gary

Edited September 7, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[Bear1142]

The only match I've really considered shooting minor in Single Stack is the SS Nationals. One thing to remember is that although USPSA has adopted the SS Nationals, some of the SS rules still apply. The one critical rule that is still in effect (I think) is the rule regarding a maximum round count of 24 on a stage. Basically, that's only 12 targets. Most of the stages are medium sized stages that run from 12-18 rounds. I think you would have a better chance with minor at this match because the potential points that can be lost on a stage by shooting minor are reduced by the smaller stage sizes. When you consider you get an extra two rounds per mag and how soft and fast a 9mm or 38 super SS gun is, you'll make up some ground on the Major guys with faster transitions and a few less reloads.

I think shooting minor in SS has some potential and I'll probably play with it a little next year.

Erik

[Fireant]

Well here is my thinking on it. Let's take a 32 round stage. Shooter A is major and shooter B is minor. Both shooters have 25 A's and 7 C's. Shooter A does it in 20 seconds and shooter B can eliminate a reload and reload at a better point in the stage and does it in 18 seconds. The HF are 7.65 for A and 8.1 for B. That makes the major guy 94% of the minor shooter. Even if the minor shooter makes some errors and shoots the same time his hf is 95% of the major shooters. That's why I will have a 9mm SS on the way soon to play with.

[Steve Moneypenny]

For everyone comparing minor shooting in limited and limited 10 not Single Stack... here's a pimp slap for you <insert slap> in those divisions round differences don't really exist.

Single stack nationals are set up for 8 rounds in almost all cases so i don't see minor helping a lot. But i'll be running a single stack in minor at a few matches this year... East Huntingdon the next 2 months as a reshoot being included.

[ampleworks]

Gary and I were discussing the one problem with shooting minor and the tendency of getting into a spray mode since the gun is so soft and drop more points than your time makes up for.

That's the only disadvantage we see, that is if you're not loading to 126PF then its a whole different game to knock down steel.

[JakeMartens]

I think the verdict is still out on this one. It really depends on the match and the stages as to whether or not there is a benefit from +2 rounds. I think it also comes down to how you shoot. If you are a spray and pray kind of shooter (like me) then the points you drop in minor will kill you.

If you do not shoot a stage any faster with a minor load gun than you do with a major except where the extra round comes into play then I personally don't see much of a benefit.

What I mean by that is that if in a whole match you only eliminate 2 reloads with the extra rounds how much time do you pick up compared to the points you dropped.

Now if it is a match that has lots of 9 round arrays and you pick up 4-5 reloads by going minor it is a benefit.

The biggest thing that can help is to make sure you have your reloads down no matter what and that during your walk throughs you are looking for ways to cut down movement, or maybe take a shot that you wouldn't in L10 or Limited because you were going there anyway.

I think what it comes down to is shoot what you shoot best.

[DaG]

didn't Matt Mink make GM shootin minor with a CZ SP01? Just wonderin'......

DaG

[Loves2Shoot]

didn't Matt Mink make GM shootin minor with a CZ SP01? Just wonderin'......

DaG

I believe he was shooting a Glock when he made GM in Production. Classifiers are minor friendly, the HF's are so high you need A's and they only take your best ones, so it isn't the same as a match. Movers and partials kill your score in minor.

[JakeMartens]

He made GM in Limited shooting a 9mm SP01

[Carmoney]

That's why I will have a 9mm SS on the way soon to play with.

Dude, if you're going to try shooting minor in SS, you really need to get a .38 Super, not a 9mm. The whole idea is to have a couple extra rounds to offset the scoring disadvantage, and you can only get 9+1 in a 9mm. You can get 10+1 in a Super.

The only match I've really considered shooting minor in Single Stack is the SS Nationals.

Actually, it's the other way around. At the Single Stack Classic (Nationals), they have thought about this exact issue, and they make sure nobody would get a big advantage by going minor. Remember, it's all about stage round count and where the reloads fall. At many "regular" major USPSA matches, on the other hand, you could save a number of reloads over the course of the match by going minor at 10+1. Looking back at my match books from last year, I saw one major match where a single-stacker with a .38 Super could have saved six reloads over a shooter with a .45 single-stack. That will not happen at the SSC, though.

[Kevin Kline]

Matt made GM in Lim and Lim 10 shooting his CZ in 9mm and Prod gear, behind the hips. He is an amazing shooter and it is incredible that he can make GM with Prod gun and gear/shooting minor in Lim and Lim10.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Why can't i use 38 super 10 round mags for a 9mm loaded either long. or B with a spacer in them. Granted it may take a little bit of work... but heck 38 super is more expensive to shoot than 45.

[dwt]

You can Steve.RLT uses Shooting Star in her Springfield 9mm .You may have to tinker some ? It will feed most any OAL .

Dale