What Motivates You To Attend (and Return To) A Match?

[shred]

At the risk of my life and the safety of my vehicle, I may have a flash back to the days of Speed Steel Past....where the stop plate was a soda can size plate at 40 to 50 yards.

Were this not advertised or expected in advance, it would push me a long way towards "don't come back to this match".

Why? Because a surprise soda can at 50 yards with a pistol is a target that's way outside what's expected for a pistol match (at least around here, maybe there are regional differences). Most people won't be sighted in anything close to that and they won't have ammo or a pistol that's nearly accurate enough. I might be able to hit it, but can my girlfriend or Production Glock shooting buddy that came with me so I'm not driving 3 hours one way by myself?

Targets like this (props, too, sometimes) way out of the norm, in my experience, are put there by a MD that thinks it's funny to see people frustrated, thinks that sort of thing is "good for you", and/or wants to show how studly they are on those targets. None of those make for good matches long term.

As a side match, or fun-shoot, great. At a competition, no thanks.

Ever been to a match where the MD thought it would be funny to have everybody shoot from an enclosed four-foot wooden cube with thin horizontal slits, to "get" the Open shooters? It's a great way to cut match attendance next month.

[EricW]

Shred,

It would be announced in advance. What I don't understand is why people get so upset about these kinds of occasional challenges. "Race to Shoot the Shotgun Hull First at 20 Yards" is considered a fun game around these parts. Of course...the shotgun hull game was preceded by "Race to Clean Your Half Of the Plate Rack at 50 Yards" so maybe we just have a sick sense of entertainment.

I could well end up setting up 3 stages every Sunday and shooting by myself - which is fine. More Kripsy Kremes and java for me. Nanny nanny boo boo....

Edited August 2, 2006 by EricW

[shred]

I'm cool with it if I know what to expect. It's the 'gotcha!' part that annoys me. Same as going to a local match and finding out it's all strong-hand/weak-hand "because we need to work on those". If you want to send a message, use E-mail, damnit.

We drag race on 50 yard plate racks. It's fun, though we do use 8" plates. IIRC 2.5" x 4.5" is better than the AH cover gun this month held off sandbags.

Anyway, I'm not driving up there, so

[AustinMike]

I agree with Shred on these surprise "challenges." I went to a match last year where a stage designer (open shooter) put the little square falling steel at the back of the bay, with a fault line way at the front. Don't know the depth, but I'd guess at least 35 yards. He apparently thought it was funny and a way to "get" people. I had a hell of a time bringing them down with my 1911 .45. The stage designer didn't do so good himself. What was really bad was watching a new shooter empty all his mags without hitting anything until the RO finally told him he didn't have to knock everything down. Bet that made him feel real good about his first match. It was just an excessively difficult stage for a general public match, in my opinion.

What you have to consider is that you will get shooters of all levels at your match when you design courses. You don't want to water things down so that they aren't challenging for advanced shooters, but at the same time you don't want things that A class and higher shooters have a hell of a time doing if most of your shooters are D-B class. Games of "hit the incredibly small target at 50 yards" are probably best in a side match.

[EricW]

I'm cool with it if I know what to expect. It's the 'gotcha!' part that annoys me.

Granted. But by the same token, I get just as annoyed by the same whitebread stages that have become the norm. The Lewiston club has shootoffs regularly with SHO and WHO and reloads thrown in occasionally. Do I crash and burn in front of 20 people more often than I like? Yes. Do I have fun? You betcha.

If matches are going to be geared only toward those whose only shooting practice is previous matches, people are going to get bored and quit. Oh wait...they're already quitting pistol-only and shooting multi-gun instead.

Edited August 2, 2006 by EricW

[Kevin Kline]

COMPETITION!!! Also, the type of people there shooting, stages, scores relatively quickly.

[George]

I want the match to start on time.

I want the match to be well run.

I want to be comfortable and not work my azz off shooting the match (shade, chairs, decent restroom facilities, good parking, easy stage access, etc...)

I want USPSA scoring and I want results immediately after the shooting is done.

I want stage designs that are not mind bender/memory tests. I want to actually test my shooting abilities, not my landmark memory retention capability and pattern recognition skills.

At a club match, I want to be done early so I still have some of my weekend to do other things too. This means I don't really want eight 32 round field courses that take all day to get through. Speedshoots and standards are a good thing at weekend club matches along with reasonable round counts and quick turn stages.

I want a friendly match staff that addresses the shooters concerns instead of disimissing them.

Last, but not least.

I want a safe range environment where I do not worry about accidentally getting ventilated. I WILL NOT go back to matches/clubs with extant safety issues that are not dealt with in a timely manner and properly.

[wide45]

You can have a great match without beating up on your less skilled competitors.

This years A7 got rave reviews by shooters of every level.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32109

There were no shots that could not be made by an average D class member. No Texas star type gimmicks, no stupid props, or rediculous positions.

The GM's still finished at the top, the D's at the bottom, and everyone had a good time.

[1911user]

One option is to use "bonus" plates for the longer/harder shots. They are optional for lower skilled shooters, but a nice, worthwhile challenge for the higher skilled.

I'm starting a local steel match this month and plan for it to be a monthly match. Creative sidematches will be an important part of making it work and they will be roughly 1/3 of the match. Dualing trees will be added soon (22 and centerfire pistol) to add a twist to the match, but that would probably not work at a larger match like you're planning.

Eric, if you post your stages somewhere (especially the "fusion" steel), please send me a link. I'm looking for good ideas to keep the match interesting.

Edited August 2, 2006 by 1911user

[tightloop]

+1 to George

You just nailed it...especially #1, #4, #5, #6 and being safe..

[eric nielsen]

What Kevin says - competition. Shooters in the same division who will fly right by me if I screw up even a little bit.

It's tougher to find this since we went to 5 divisions and now 6, but this Saturday I tagged along with some friends for their Single Stack match and it was GREAT. Guys who I had not seen in a LONG time were there, people who shot Limited back when there was only Open and Limited.

Here's the fun part: Everyone had the same gun. Single stack. No tungsten, no 1/2-pound block of steel hanging under the front sight, no 3-inch-wide magwell. Everyone had recoil, everyone reached around to grab a fresh mag [frequently], everyone went to slide-lock with their one extra round & had to say, "okay, now I must MAKE EVERY SHOT".

Oops - meant everyone but me. They let me shoot my Glock to see what it's like & to play along I put only 8 rounds in every mag & set them back behind my hip bone. More mag changes in 4 stages than I've done in a dozen matches but I kept up pretty well & might've been 3rd or 4th overall if my gun was legal. Because hitting the target matters again.

I know there are a few clubs that will put on a special match whenever there is a 5th saturday, 5th sunday in a month & I would strongly recommend you try using that date on the calender for a 1-division match.

All singlestack, all limited, all revolver, all plastic gun, whatever you like. But again have to say I was amazed at the number of people who had a singlestack 1911 & came out to shoot a heads-up test of shooting skill. I thought those days were behind us.

[Sestock]

I want results immediately after the shooting is done.

Is this common? If so what size are these matches?

[George]

QUOTE(George @ Aug 2 2006, 10:28 AM)

I want results immediately after the shooting is done.

Is this common? If so what size are these matches?

If the match has a dedicated stats person as part of the crew, there should be no problem having results available within minutes of the last scoresheet being turned in.

I consider providing fast results at a match to be an integral part of a well organized club and a very good thing to provide at Level 1 club matches, not just at major matches.

[Sestock]

What size are these monthly matches? Major matches are a given for quick results.

[George]

It's common around here at all "Level 1" club matches. Also common at any "well run" club with a "dedicated stats person" who inputs scores while the squads are shooting.

http://www.richmondhotshots.com/

[shred]

Matches with a shoot-through stats person can usually get them out before all the props are put away.. assuming there aren't a lot of borked scoresheets. These are local matches, 40-ish shooters.

You need power, a computer and a printer at a minimum. It's a lot easier recruiting help if you have a stat shack with some amenities, but I've seen it done on the passenger seat of a car with a laptop and 110v car inverter adapter to run the printer.

[EricW]

I'll give the at-match scoring a go, but it's going to be verbal or not at all. Around these parts, we typically don't have the manpower or facilities to have polished at-match results aside from a cursory sorting of scoresheets at the range.

[George]

Yeah, we have a stats shack with a dedicated computer/printer system, fulltime electricity, air conditioning/heating and several folks capable of and willing to do the job on a regular basis.

And that is exactly what it takes to do so on a regular basis, year in, year out ;-)

BTW, results at the specialty matches I run at our club (3gun/multigun) are almost always available in under a half hour after last shot fired, sometimes as quickly as 5-10 minutes after the last score sheet is handed in. One time we had a computer issue and I took it home to input, and emailed them out the next day, but typically immediate results are the norm at our club.

Edited August 3, 2006 by George

[EricBudd]

This is a very interesting thread. I've just started running USPSA matches at my club this year and I am trying to make them as enjoyable as possible.

I want the match to start on time.

Check. We start as close to on time as possible once the stages are setup. All depends on how early people come to help. I start at 7am for a 10:30 match.

I want the match to be well run.

Maybe. I do the best I can and ask to advice and comments. I can't fix it if I don't know its broken. I'm always willing to listen to guy who know more than I do.

I want to be comfortable and not work my azz off shooting the match (shade, chairs, decent restroom facilities, good parking, easy stage access, etc...)

Maybe. We have a club with indoor plumbing about 100 yards from the range. We have some shade. Parking is ok. If you want a chair, bring your own.

I want USPSA scoring and I want results immediately after the shooting is done.

Sort of. We have USPSA scoring. Scores are NOT available the day of the match. I'd love to have a stats person but no one has volunteered, I do the stats a day or two after the match. After getting to the club at 7am and leaving at 3 or 4 in the afternoon, I'm not going to spend anoth two or three hours doing stats on a Sunday.

I want stage designs that are not mind bender/memory tests. I want to actually test my shooting abilities, not my landmark memory retention capability and pattern recognition skills.

Sort of. I don't ususally have memory stages. If anything my stages are kind of bland. Shooters are welcome to help design stages if they don't like mine.

At a club match, I want to be done early so I still have some of my weekend to do other things too. This means I don't really want eight 32 round field courses that take all day to get through. Speedshoots and standards are a good thing at weekend club matches along with reasonable round counts and quick turn stages.

Check. We try to be done early. Last match was 5 stages, 120 rounds. Shooting started at 10:30 and was over by 2.

I want a friendly match staff that addresses the shooters concerns instead of disimissing them.

Check. I am the match staff. My Mom helps (No, she is not my wife!). If there isa problem let me know. Of couse, I may ask you to help fix whatever problem you find.

Last, but not least.

I want a safe range environment where I do not worry about accidentally getting ventilated. I WILL NOT go back to matches/clubs with extant safety issues that are not dealt with in a timely manner and properly.

Agreed. Ranges should be safe. Period. Of course, I can only deal with problems I see or people tell me about.

[Flexmoney]

If I were to start my own range/match from scratch (and I might, if we can get some land worked out) I would go straight to the Palm scoring...especially for anything that is scored time+.

[Gary Johnson]

Keep it freestyle. No 'shoot this from here, and that from there'.

Simple and fun is better than complex and confusing. If a shooter FTEs because he rushed past a target, that's OK. If he FTEs because he forgot a hidden target, or spends more time hunting for targets than shooting them, there might be a problem.

Don't get carried away. Five good stages beat seven good stages if it takes too long to shoot the match. What the others wrote is right. 100-150 rounds is plenty for a monthly match. Try to be six round friendly. Several small arrays is better than a couple huge ones.

I've seen matches held in two feet of snow, driving rain, blistering heat, high winds, you name it. The only time we get complaints is when the stages suck or it takes too long to shoot the match.

My club puts water coolers on the ranges in warm weather. It makes a huge difference. We also have concessions when we can get volunteers to run the kitchen. We charge a couple bucks for a hot dog or two, chips, and a drink. No one seems to mind staying an extra half hour if they get lunch out of the deal.

Don't know about instant stats. We've never had anything like that. We try to get stats out a few hours after the match. We send copies via e-mail and post them to USPSA.

Edited August 4, 2006 by Gary Johnson

[Bob Hostetter]

Assuming we are talking about a local level match..................

Round count needs to be reasonable, stages should average between 20 and 40 rounds per. Nothing wrong with an 8 to 12 round speed stage every once in a while. A little variety is nice as well.

Targets need to be reasonable, I hate it when someone decides to have several 50 yard head shots just to slow the big dogs down. Who it real screws with is the B, C, and D shooters, and it tends to suck the fun right out of the match.

Reasonable physcial demands..........I am not going to jump off a 10 foot tower in a local match 2 weeks before a big match and take the chance on twisting an ankle or knee. The stage designers need to keep in mind a local match is for fun, not the World Championship for Navy Seals.

Posting the scores in a reasonable length of time. That means posting them sometime before the day before the next match........

Start on time and run smoothly.......... If it is a local match on a weekend chances are I am fitting in around doing something with the family. If it starts on time and doesn't take 6 hours to shoot 4 stages I can keep my promises to my family which is how I got permission to shoot the match on the same day we are supposed to go do some family thing in the first place.

If you are going to charge me for Classifiers then turn them in. Otherwise don't charge me for them. I personally don't care if you have them, but I don't like to pay them and then never see them show up. If you need to make more money then just charge more for the match and I will make my decision based on that.

[BSeevers]

Hooters girls RO's running the stages in short shorts and tube tops.. (Are you Match Directors finally listening?)

Edited August 5, 2006 by BSeevers

[EricW]

Hooters girls RO's running the stages in short shorts and tube tops.. (Are you Match Directors finally listening?)

If it happens at my match it will be with regular shorts and none of that pantyhose nonsense. I don't understand the appeal of hot pants and pantyhose on a girl that looks like she's about 14....it's just creepy.

[shooterbenedetto]

I travel 2 hrs every weekend for a match in Norco.

it is a check up for me that i'm improving on my shooting every week.

great comraderie

shoot with Gm's and master shooters.

Great stages with some stages like the nationals.

best Ipsc training i can get.

achieved high A shooter in less than 1.5 yrs.

and most of all JoJo vidanes is so down to earth and a great guy to

buy a gun coz if you have a problem, he fixes it right there on the range.