"marker" Penalties

[DJPoLo]

I will start this thread by stating that I have already sent my exam in to NROI so regardless of the opinions expressed by responses to this post, it will have no bearing on my submitted test.

That being said, there was one question on my NROI review exam that wasn't blatantly obvious in its answer.

The question:

As the R.O. on a long course, you observe a competitor piling up gravel as a "marker" for a particular shooting position. How many procedurals can he be assessed for this?________________ Rule(s):_____________

I answered "none" as I could not locate a rule prohibiting this.

I read and re-read and re-re-read chapter 10 on penalties and also downloaded the PDF version of the 2004 USPSA rulebook so that I could search the text using Adobe Acrobat. I couldn't find any reference to that type of scenario in the book at all.

Did I overlook something or is my answer correct?

-Chet

Edited July 13, 2006 by DJPoLo

[bobert1]

How about Rule 4.5.1

[lynn jones]

see rule 4.5.1

[DJPoLo]

How about Rule 4.5.1

Yup. That must be it.

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural

foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including

targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations

may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion

of the Range Officer.

-Chet

[open17]

4.5.1 Took a while to find it

[SteveZ]

Looks like the NROI is now resorting to "grey" areas of the rule book for exam questions!

I think the answer to this one might be 1 based on rule 4.5.1. Placing/making "markers" could be construed as "interfering with the range surface" and would result in one procedural penalty applied for each occurance......all based on the RO's discretion and interpretation of 4.5.1.

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural

foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including

targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations

may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion

of the Range Officer.

[Jim Norman]

What is grey about this?

The rules say you cannot interfere withthe surface. Altering the surface is changing it or interfering with its current state. That said, if a competitor finds a hole in the range surface and asks to fill it as it is a safety issue, that is a different story. Dropping a pile of brass at your prefered stopping point in a COF is the same as piling up a mound of gravel.

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural

foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including

targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations

may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion

of the Range Officer.

One Proceedural if you get caught. Same would technically apply to dragging your foot through the gravel to make a furrow. Better to concentrate on your shooting and pick up on eye level references. You shouldn't be looking at the ground, you should be looking for your next target to engage.

Jim

[DJPoLo]

Placing/making "markers" could be construed as "interfering with the range surface" and would result in one procedural penalty applied for each occurance...

So, do you suppose that's one procedural per piece of gravel?

-Chet

Edited July 13, 2006 by DJPoLo

[blackdragon]

I wonder what our rule book will look like in ten years?

Ivan

[SteveZ]

Placing/making "markers" could be construed as "interfering with the range surface" and would result in one procedural penalty applied for each occurance...

So, do you suppose that's one procedural per piece of gravel?

-Chet

exactly! That's whats grey about it. Lets say you see a rock located somewhere you plan on going during your walk through....if you kick it off to the side....are you "interfering/altering the surface" or perhaps you have to kneel somewhere...and you see a few pieces of brass where you plan on putting your knee down....ouch! So you move them off to the side....oh look...he's piling up brass as a marker! Ding him!

[DJPoLo]

I wonder what our rule book will look like in ten years?

Ivan

'Prolly the same, but with a different colored cover.

-Chet

[blackdragon]

I really hope they stay away from the "Gray" areas.

Ivan

[tightloop]

Probably going to be as big as the prosecutorial binders in the Enron case...510 3 ring binders..

[blackdragon]

Ivan

[bayoupirate]

1 proceedural per spot marked (indexed).

I've seen a lot of this.

Usually remove the marks or make the shooter aware that it's not allowed and ask them to.

[Brazos Custom]

I like to move the marker when they are not looking.

[blackdragon]

What!!!!!

That was you!

Ivan

[Jim Norman]

If someone were to toss the brass away from a port or kneeling position, I think most people would relaize this is not a marker. BUT piling up brass in an OBVIOUS pile is. Kicking a rock away from your path, no, carefully placing a rock at a turning point is.

Really not all that hard.

And I like the idea of moving the marker pile, that is just evil!

Jim

[bayoupirate]

+1 Bob.

Usually the'll drop a plastic bottle top or little wad of pasters and I've even seen one guy drop disposable ear plugs (the really bright safety orange one) to mark a spots.

I'd never go over and pick up someone's mark on purpose, but I might kick it a few yards when I'm walking around to check that all of the targets are restored and down range is clear.

[shred]

Do I see an opportunity here for remote-controlled, station-keeping day-glo mini-blimps??? 4.5.1 can't touch that. :D

[chuckw]

Usually the'll drop a plastic bottle top or little wad of pasters and I've even seen one guy drop disposable ear plugs (the really bright safety orange one) to mark a spots.

But that's not re-arranging the ground right? If you pile up gravel OK, but dropping a thing on the ground is the same as dropping a case when shooting so how can you be dinged?

[Jim Norman]

I suppose that deliberately dropping a pair of ear plugs or a bottle cap could be considered "interfering with the range surface" since it is a change to the surface.

Jim

[bruce282]

I like to move the marker when they are not looking.

Back in the late 80's I raced a Mazda RX-7 in SCCA racing. During the 1st of 2 mandatory drivers schools we were told it was a bad idea to use anything track side as a point of reference for the location of the apex of the corner. During day 1 the instructors had placed a orange cone at the apex of each turn so we could concentrate on getting it right. I rented the car I was using from a fellow racer who was also an instructor at the school. During lunch he told me not to rush back to the grid when our group was called, and to hang back and watch. Every cone had been moved about 5 feet and the results were pretty funny until folks figured it out. I should add the first 3 laps were under the yellow flag so the worst that could happen would be some guy putting two in dirt. During the 3 lap all the cones were removed by the corner workers.

Bruce

[Jim Norman]

Along the lines of this story, there was, so I was told, a race, way back when where the driver used a poster on a pole to gauge his entry into a corner. Worked great, in the practice and qualifying races, but...

Race day the poster was gone. He was lost and losing until a girl in a bright red sweater stood at the same pole, he was doing great, but ended up eventually crashing. Seems the girl started moving into the corner as the race wore on. He went faster and faster, drove better and better, right up to the point where physics won out and he lost!

Index on targets, index on fixed objects, the edge of a port, a joint in the fault line. Remember that anything on the ground that can move probably will move and it might result in a very short day.

Jim Norman

[vluc]

Good post, Jim. There are enough seams, nails, bends in props, chips in wooden fault lines etc, to provide a marker.