45gunner Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 What is allowed/disallowed when the shooting position is "Hands Naturally at Sides" and shooting under IPSC rules using the latest copy of the IPSC rulebook? Can there be a bend in the elbow? How much can the elbow bend. If I have extremely long arms should I not be allowed to keeps my hands in the same relative starting position to the guns as other people even if my elbows are bent? Can your hand be touching the holster but not the gun? I have seen some very good IPSC shooter draw with the tips of their finger touching the bottom of their holster. Can the middle of the arm touch any part of the gun as is when hands are 'Naturally at Sides'? If my option the phrase Naturally at Sides is very vague. Can someone of authority point me to the IPSC rules with the page number that defines what is meant by this phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Great question. I sure don't have an answer, but I find that the inside of my forearm just happens to touch my magwell under MY definition of hands naturally hanging at my sides. When my forearm doesn't touch the magwell I usually have too much tension in my neck and shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 "Hands naturally at sides" is perfectly understood by all and needs no definition. What you can get away with is another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 "Hands naturally at sides" is perfectly understood by all and needs no definition. What you can get away with is another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingerjg Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 When i start 'hands naturally at sides', my forarm rests against my magwell for some type of index. I usually have my thumb on the side of the holser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 When i start 'hands naturally at sides', my forarm rests against my magwell for some type of index. I usually have my thumb on the side of the holser. +1, I started having my forearm hit my magwell to make sure I'm starting position is the same spot everytime for Hands naturally at sides. The arms just hang at your sides, thats its. Theres a term for those who put the bend in the elbows to get your hand up higher. Anyone........can't remember whats its called. As for you having long arms, that would be a no go.............lmao. I bet theres many stages where your long arms help you out so should the other guys get some help?? You deal with what you have and for most of us its alot to deal with. As far as you arms, just let them hang and be loose. If you tense up its going to be slower times anyways. Flyin40 Flyin40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45gunner Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) When i start 'hands naturally at sides', my forarm rests against my magwell for some type of index. I usually have my thumb on the side of the holser. +1, I started having my forearm hit my magwell to make sure I'm starting position is the same spot everytime for Hands naturally at sides. The arms just hang at your sides, thats its. Theres a term for those who put the bend in the elbows to get your hand up higher. Anyone........can't remember whats its called. As for you having long arms, that would be a no go.............lmao. I bet theres many stages where your long arms help you out so should the other guys get some help?? You deal with what you have and for most of us its alot to deal with. As far as you arms, just let them hang and be loose. If you tense up its going to be slower times anyways. Flyin40 Flyin40 I can't think of a single situation where where if my hands are hanging lower it helps me. If everyone hands are touching the same place etc the bottom of the holster is the same as touching a place on body that is close to the barrel. This is the most fair way to start. I appreciate everyone's input but thats really the problem I want an official rulling. This subject, according to everyone I talk to and what is evident in this post, seems to have there own opinion. I have even had an R.O. tell me that the holster is part of the gun therefore it is not legal to touch the holster. This is a stretch. The only rules that seems to apply is 8.2.3 "A competitor shall not be allowed to start a course of fire while touching or holding a handgun, reloading device or ammunition" Touching the holster is not touching the handgun. I don't need to bend my arms to touch the bottom of my holster but even if I did my hands would then be lower that my waist even while the tips of my finger is touching the holster and would still be more natural because my hand being closer to my body is more natural then my hands being unnaturally draped over a pistol with my forearm touching the magwell(which BTW is touching the pistol therefor is illegal). So touching the bottom of the holster, according to the above rule is allowed, since my hand is not touching the gun. Edited July 10, 2006 by 45gunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45gunner Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 "Hands naturally at sides" is perfectly understood by all and needs no definition. What you can get away with is another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 my hand naturally wants to grab the gun when im relaxed...so go figure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 There is no official ruling. You WILL get opposing opinions on this from this forum...and likely at every match you attend. The start position is dictated by the Written Walk Through (stage description). And, the Range Master for the match will be the final authority on how it is called at that match. (The RM can also re-write the stage description for clarity...but, might risk having reshoots from earlier competitors or might have to throw the stage out). Oh...and how long or short you arms are has nothing to do with it...in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 It's unlikely that anyone will be able to define "naturally at sides" to everyone's satisfaction. That's why I like surrender position. Wrists above shoulders is pretty easy to see and hard to game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz-0 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The arms just hang at your sides, thats its. Theres a term for those who put the bend in the elbows to get your hand up higher. Anyone........can't remember whats its called. I recall having heard the phrase "and no doing the ipsc monkey" thrown around to discourage such behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 It's unlikely that anyone will be able to define "naturally at sides" to everyone's satisfaction.That's why I like surrender position. Wrists above shoulders is pretty easy to see and hard to game. And now you know why my favorite start positions when designing stages are "Hands or fingers touching XXs," "Hands flat on XXs," or "Standing anywhere in free fire zone." Hard to interpret those wrong...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) It's unlikely that anyone will be able to define "naturally at sides" to everyone's satisfaction. That's why I like surrender position. Wrists above shoulders is pretty easy to see and hard to game. And now you know why my favorite start positions when designing stages are "Hands or fingers touching XXs," "Hands flat on XXs," or "Standing anywhere in free fire zone." Hard to interpret those wrong...... I'll secong Nik's post with a few additions. Touching wall Heels on XX's Hands on bacl of head with fingers interlaced. Hands on knees My favortie is "Start anywhere in the free fire zone" I couldn't care less what postion you take, where your hands are, or whch direction you are facing. Want to see a squad go crazy? give them this one. No one likes to start in a "different" way as they stand out from the crowd! And as an aside, Surrender Position doesnt work well, you all have seen the convoluted positions that people take to get their hands a milimmeter closer to their holster. Look a bit like the "IPSC Monkey" scratching his ears Jim Edited July 10, 2006 by Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The sucky part about "hands on X's" type starts is that we don't get as many starts with a true draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The IPSC Monkey Amen - What AikiDale said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The sucky part about "hands on X's" type starts is that we don't get as many starts with a true draw. No argument. So what can we do to define the allowable hand and arm position? Standing naturally erect, hands hanging loosely at sides. Specifically it is OK if your arm rests against your gun or holster. How about: Hands should be within X inches of a vertical line drawn through your hip joint, shoulder and knee? In truth, do we even care? Of how about we have a committee decide on the positions that are allowable and have three or four people of differing body types model them, take a picture of each and place them on the website and incorporate them into the next edition of the USPAS rulebook. Maybe we need a place to rest our hand, sort of like on the gameshows that require the contestant to press a buzzer to answer a question. Better yet, why can't we just shoot the match? Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Jim, I think the answer there is up to the stage designer to come up with something that works and isn't controversial. I (when I remember not to use the same old same old) just say hands at sides. I really don't care if it's all that "natural" or not...mainly for the reasons mentioned in enforcing it for everybody of all body types and such. The rules still say that you can't be touching the gun, don't they? (yep, 8.2.3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Yeah, the IPSC Monkey Been awhile since I seen that term. At Area 6 and Area 7 I watched 2 different people having trouble reaching a prop because they were shorter than most with arms shorter than mine. You had to use the prop in order to complete the stage. The point being we all have to deal with what we are born with. No way to make it fair for everyone. As far as the holster is concerned as a starting point that wouldn't work either. Depending on what holster you have is how low your arms can hang. If you have a open gun vs. a paddle type holster your talking alot of difference. Then next you'll have people trying having holster modifications so they have higher holsters. I don't think most even worry about it and those doing the IPSC Monkey get laughed at quite a bit from what I have seen. Flyin40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I love it when hands naturally as side means, a major bend in the arm so the hand is closer to the gun. And the response from the shooter is, this is natural for ME! And they are not a weightlifter with tree trunks for arms. I suspect this is one of those items where mentioning it to the shooter is about a far as you can go without totally ragging on them to relax their arms more---then they start creeping. UGH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I've held the start signal for a few people who tried to convince me that standing with their shoulders hunched up to their ears and their arms bent to the gun was their normal stance. I usually remind them that when I saw them standing around talking or waiting their turn to shoot they never assumed that position. Relax, and let's get the show on the road. *You could also say the position "Arms hanging naturally relaxed at sides" is like fine art, rednecks and pornography -- I can't define them, but I know 'em when I see 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hands relaxed at sides" starting position by saying, "I shall not today attempt further to define this kind of start I understand to be embraced . . . but I know it when I see it . . It seems that Justice Stewart was just a liitle a head of his time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45gunner Posted July 11, 2006 Author Share Posted July 11, 2006 (edited) In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hands relaxed at sides" starting position by saying, "I shall not today attempt further to define this kind of start I understand to be embraced . . . but I know it when I see it . .It seems that Justice Stewart was just a liitle a head of his time.... So the next time I come to a match run by one of you and the R.O. does the walk thru and says ............. and rules according to rule 8.2.3. After the load and make ready I am going to hang my arm over the gun with my hand touching the bottom of the holster as I have practiced this way and respectfully challenge anyone wanting me to change this position while citing rule 8.2.3 that has been tied died on my shooting shirt. Any areas of IPSC rules that are vague R.O.s should not put themselves in a postion of telling anyone what is meant by hands naturally at sides then should,while ensuring that the gun is not touched and no creeping or changing of postion occurs, run the match. I am not trying to disrepect any of the hard working R.O's as I am one myself but some R.O. are over the top. Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Edited July 11, 2006 by 45gunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Sometimes, you need an IPSC Monkey to demonstrate a shooting position. In this case, hands relaxed at sides (while seated): A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 45gunner, I don't disagree with you..much. But, from a shooter/competitor standpoint...why dick with it? I know I am a lot better off focusing my energies on other things. There is nothing that is a bigger distraction from the shooting than debating with the RO while you are on the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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