EricBudd Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 With all the talk over the past few months about "bipsc" vs "pratical" stages, I thought it might be nice to set up an "Old School" style match using "classic" stages from the "good old days". The problem is, I've only been shooting USPSA for a few years and have only run two matches at my home club. So, what I'm asking is if people can post stages from matches n the bast that meet the definition of classic/old school (whatever that means). If I can get the stages and can mannage the props, I'll try to use them in a match later this summer. I'd also like to learn a little about the shooting roots of this game. It will be very interesting to see how the stages differ from what we shoot now and to see how the shooters at the match react to the stages. Thanks, Eric Budd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Some of the older shooters that I have talked to say; shoot from Box A run to Box B, shoot; run to Box C, shoot. Or change box to port & shoot. Freestyle is something the younger generation started because they can run faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Over in the 'Old Days' forum/threads, I posted some scans of old COFs in with the old articles. I have a few more, but they're generally about as useful as today's match booklet COFs-- a general idea of how many targets there are, with little on distance or difficulty of shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpty1 Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 The first thing that comes to mind is standards. Back in the old days, you saw tons of fixed time standards. Something like 3 targets at 50 yards. Six second fixed time with 3 separate strings. First string 2 shots on each target standing. Second string 2 shots on each target kneeling. Last string 2 shots on each target prone. Don't see much of this anymore, at least not in my area. Hey, you could call it a "Blast From The Past" match...no pun intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscbob Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Some of the older shooters that I have talked to say; shoot from Box A run to Box B, shoot; run to Box C, shoot. Or change box to port & shoot.Freestyle is something the younger generation started because they can run faster. If that is true, it doesn't sound like much fun. Standards and classifiers are also not much fun for me. I prefer freestyle courses with lots of options and movement. Anybody got some older coursebooks from matches that we might get a look at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 (edited) Oddly enough, we just had one of the standards that cpty1 mentioned. It is still listed on the classifier list. About 10 people including an A shooter zero'd this one due to misses. With a revo, I shot right about where I'm currently classified. I um, had to have my gun zero'd for that distance since I just shot the ICORE championships in Morro Bay with it's "standard" classifier at 50, 25, 10, and 3 yards all on a fixed time. Vince Edited June 21, 2006 by sargenv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Depending on your club - the biggest difference between stages from 10 years ago and today are the props. In my opinion, the stages themselves really haven't changed much. In the end, the course designer has an idea of what they want you to do and not do. In the past, they used boxes to achieve that goal.....today they use a prop. When it is all said and done, the course would be shot very similar whether it was yesterday or today. However, the props (and good stage designers) have expanded on something that boxes didn't fully allow.....the shooter must now be better at breaking down a stage and developing a plan of attack. Because boxes and stage descriptions of yesterday were so definitive, the multiple ways to shoot a stage weren't as common then as it is today. And while some of this 'bipsc' discussion evidently makes you think we are shooting a totally different game than what we did 10 - 15 years ago, look at some of the older stages and I think you will find more similarity than differences that what you see in today's stages (just imagine a prop versus a box though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 (edited) You can view the 10 non-BIPSC courses of fire for Ara Maljian's Wyoming State Championship at the Eastern Colorado USPSA homepage Eastern Colorado USPSA. Looks pretty "old school," one stage even featuring a Stage Coach. I can't wait. -br Edited June 21, 2006 by joker22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Ellis Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 (edited) When I stuck my toe in this game 15 years ago (then left but that's another story), there were two stages at our Wednesday night practice that you were going to get guaranteed. El Prez - I don't remember any other classifier but the Prez that has been around as long as the game has. 50' Standards - Box A, gun loaded, arms down. Draw, fire 6 freestyle, reload, fire 6 kneeling, reload, fire 6 prone. All one string. Another item I remember from back then was a lot of strong hand, weak hand stuff. Nothing extreme but usuable, practical exercises. Edited to add: Oh yeah, another thing I remember was the round count being a lot lower than it is now. It was a rare bird to have to reload more than twice using 8 round mags. My original Ernie Hill rig had 3 mag pouches. I stuffed the Barney mag and my starter mag in my back pocket (still do). Most stages were 6, 12, or 18 rounds. A real ammo burner was 24. We also tried make it revolver neutral as everyone shot heads up then. Edited June 22, 2006 by Hank Ellis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 You can view the 10 non-BIPSC courses of fire for Ara Maljian's Wyoming State Championship at the Eastern Colorado USPSA homepage Eastern Colorado USPSA.Looks pretty "old school," one stage even featuring a Stage Coach. I can't wait. -br Hmm.. those don't look like old school to me. Pop up targets? 30 round stages? Trapdoor activators? Throwing stuff around? Ok that last one I remember more of. I don't miss it. I always thought testing shooting ability via throwing random objects was a little bizzare. When I started, "old school" was "shoot only T1-3 from only Box A only, move to box B and only engage T4-5 only, move to box C and engage only T6-8 strong hand only." 100 rounds was a big match. 24 rounds was a big stage. Somebody around a lot longer than me had a great quote that "we moved the shooting boxes up off the ground and onto the walls". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Who remembers " Need for speed"? Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 moverfive I guess I qualify to say something about old school stages...I started shooting in '78... Old school stuff was lots of fixed time...like Los Alamedas, Advanced Military, you shot just one of these for the whole day...something like 6 or 7 distances...start at 50, go to 35, 25, 15, 10, 7, and 3 yds.... You had the original Cooper Assualt, the El Prez, Vice Pres, Leather Slap, Flying M...I don;'t remember any stages more than15 or 18 rounds...100 to 115 rounds was lots of shooting...and we did stuff you are not allowed to do now...weak hand reload, weak hand draws, jumping off props, hanging from a rope shooting around the Rodesian Wall...occasionally we'd have a mover that would be shot from various distances...usually 25, 15 and 10.... None of this 30 round run and gun...no droppers, floppers, clamshells, Tx Stars, did shoot a few poppers, but nothing like the SEA of targets you see today...no swaying bridge, no shooting from covered wagons etc... Lots more lifelike for my money...no Upside down targets, but lots of Z combos, lots of head shots, a few no shoots but strategically placed... The thing I liked best was that everyone had the same amount of ammo in their mags...none of this worrying about: can I get 21 rounds in my .40 Big Stick, can I get 29 rounds in my 9mm Major....no Hi Caps...everyone had 8 + 1 mags and it leveled the playing field...and you knew everyone made the same amount of reloads...shot from real leather belts and holsters...none of the Star Wars rigs you have today... Yep, props were minimal, shot lots of man vs man.... It has evolved into this: Who can get the most rounds in their mag and still have it function 100%....who can run the fastest while shooting 30 plus rounds...who has the best/fastest IPSC squat to shoot thru barrels or low ports, and the guy who wins today is the guy who can best memorize the arrays of the long field courses before he shoots....It has become more prop dependent, more Big Stick dependent, more memory work, more long field courses, who can run fastest....less emphasis on basic shooting skills (heads at 20+ yards, Z combos at 15 and 18 yds, reloading skinny guns on the move, etc.) less emphasis on WHO, SHO, less emphasis on low match point stages, less emphasis on make your shots count cause you can't have a mike and win...there use to be an almost equal emphasis on each of the components of DVC...but NOW the whole emphasis is speed, without regard for accuracy, and the power factor has fallen to 165 to help prevent "Super face" with .38 Supers and allow the advent of 9mm Major.... And yes, I will go out on the proverbal limb and say, I liked it better then than now..but that is just me, I am sure... That is about it...any more questions about the old school matches...just ask.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 There were more fixed time courses in the old days as well. Some of the old courses included the Cooper Assault, Mexican Defense, Ambidextrous Defense, Tricathlon, Advanced Military, Flying M and others. I can get to my copies over the July 4 weekend, if anyone is interested. Some may recall that the original El Presidente wa a fixed time course. If you did it within 10 seconds, it was good. Faster didn't really gain you anything until Comstock was applied (as I recall). A faster time acted as a tie breaker where a slower time would move you behind someone with the same score, but faster time. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 joker22 Looking at the Wy shoot you referenced...: stage 1 has 30 rounds and 13 targets, not old school..stage 2 is entirely prop driven, not old school...stage 3...TOSS GRANADE...WTF... definately not old school...stage 4, 25 rounds, 10 targets, not old school...stage 5, better but still prop driven....stage 6.....OK, might be old school..stage 7 ANOTHER GRANADE...COME ON...stage 8, 28 rounds lots of gadgets...not old school...stage 9 has 26 rounds lots of movement, not old school...stage 10...NOW YOU GOT IT...THIS IS OLD SCHOOL... So you have one definate, one ok, and one maybe...7 definately not..not an Old School match...but have fun with it anyway.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 moverfiveI guess I qualify to say something about old school stages...I started shooting in '78... Old school stuff was lots of fixed time...like Los Alamedas, Advanced Military, you shot just one of these for the whole day...something like 6 or 7 distances...start at 50, go to 35, 25, 15, 10, 7, and 3 yds.... And don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to compare stages of 30 years ago to today's. I was trying to make more of a comparison from stages 10 - 15 years ago - the timeframe that seemed to be 'okay' with the initiators of this 'bipsc' conversation....since in that timeframe it was only US shooters winning the world championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 moverfive Sorry, Bud, but stages of 10 or 15 yrs ago are not old school at all...and regardless of Americans winning the World Shoots or not...the changes started with the dot sights and the .38 Supers about late 85 or so...prior to that time line....the mag capacity had not yet impacted the course design like it does now... you could take any COF and know that EVERY SHOOTER would be reloading after every 8 rounds.... I could even live with high caps that fit flush with the gun...but this hanging out 170mm mag is just nonsense......and 9mm Major is also nonsense...if you can make major with 9mm in Open then you should be allowed to do the same thing in every division... Limited and L-10 and Production...Major is major regardless of which division you are shooting...Better yet, put the power factor where it belongs, at 175 and mandate that Major be .40 or larger...you still could have 20+ rounds at your disposal but this 170mm mag could be done away with.... It is all about who has the most ammo in a mag that will make the size limit and work 100% of the time..moreso than accuracy and power....It's crazy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iweiny Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 ...Lots more lifelike for my money...no Upside down targets, but lots of Z combos, lots of head shots, a few no shoots but strategically placed... ... Ok stupid question. What is a "Z combo"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 moverfiveSorry, Bud, but stages of 10 or 15 yrs ago are not old school at all...and regardless of Americans winning the World Shoots or not...the changes started with the dot sights and the .38 Supers about late 85 or so...prior to that time line....the mag capacity had not yet impacted the course design like it does now... you could take any COF and know that EVERY SHOOTER would be reloading after every 8 rounds.... I could even live with high caps that fit flush with the gun...but this hanging out 170mm mag is just nonsense......and 9mm Major is also nonsense...if you can make major with 9mm in Open then you should be allowed to do the same thing in every division... Limited and L-10 and Production...Major is major regardless of which division you are shooting...Better yet, put the power factor where it belongs, at 175 and mandate that Major be .40 or larger...you still could have 20+ rounds at your disposal but this 170mm mag could be done away with.... It is all about who has the most ammo in a mag that will make the size limit and work 100% of the time..moreso than accuracy and power....It's crazy... You just reiterated my point about the stages of 10 - 15 years ago......and therefore am agreeing with you 100% in that area. I don't agree with you about the ammo capacity in a gun. Use the Limited Nationals as an example - I think for the first four years (at least for the first two years), the top two shooters were shooting single-stack. People in Hawaii with only 10 rounds in their gun (regardless of division) are making M and GM in open and limited. I know, I was the first to make M in Hawaii and was one stage point away from GM. While the extra ammo helps, it isn't the difference in who wins or loses or who advances in class - just my little opinion. And besides, all have access to the same equipment. But that isn't what I wanted to really say here - my real overall point I want to make is that the US shooters aren't less competitive on the world format today than they were 10 - 15 years ago BECAUSE of 'bipsc' stages of today. Stages as a whole aren't much different than what they were when US shooters were winning the world matches. What changed? The rest of the world is just catching up - we no longer have the monopoly of talented shooters with the ability to practice and participate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscbob Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 (edited) It is all about who has the most ammo in a mag that will make the size limit and work 100% of the time..moreso than accuracy and power....It's crazy... Wow.....we live in 2 different worlds I guess. Oh well, just have to agree to disagree My open gun with 170s runs all day long and I still can't beat the better faster shooters. Edited June 22, 2006 by ipscbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 ipscbob If you don't think it is about who has the most ammo...just search this forum for threads on how to get just one more round in that mag...How to shave the follower, have your mags tuned by Bevins, certain mag extensions that allow that extra round with massaged springs and trick followers....Looks like it to me.. As far as being beaten by better faster shooters...well...if I am your equal pulling the trigger but have to reload 4 times for your once...guess who wins...one of the founding principals of Cooper was the winner should be the guy who gets there first with the most...not who reloads less..LOL iweiny A Z combo is a no shoot placed on both sides of a standard USPSA target at the edge of the head...only avaliable shoot area is 6" wide from the head to the bottom of the target.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 ipscbobIf you don't think it is about who has the most ammo...just search this forum for threads on how to get just one more round in that mag...How to shave the follower, have your mags tuned by Bevins, certain mag extensions that allow that extra round with massaged springs and trick followers....Looks like it to me.. As far as being beaten by better faster shooters...well...if I am your equal pulling the trigger but have to reload 4 times for your once...guess who wins...one of the founding principals of Cooper was the winner should be the guy who gets there first with the most...not who reloads less..LOL iweiny A Z combo is a no shoot placed on both sides of a standard USPSA target at the edge of the head...only avaliable shoot area is 6" wide from the head to the bottom of the target.. that is why we have different divisions. So everyone has the opportunity to compete with equivalent equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscbob Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 that is why we have different divisions. So everyone has the opportunity to compete with equivalent equipment. My point exactly! Also within a division I really can't believe that one extra round is what seperates TGO from myself In MY world, the more accurate and faster shooter usually wins. All of the rest is just excuses for not doing what it takes for being more accurate and faster than the next guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 moverfive You are missing my point...this thread is about Old School stages... dial in on OLD SCHOOL for me, Old School was about honing skills, like the snap reload, WHO, SHO, accuracy with power, coupled with speed...the stages and matches were geared toward those principals...but with the advent of the 18 round Supers, there had to be course design changes or the the Open shooters would never have to reload..Or, Heaven perish the thought...disallow more than 8+1 rounds...since IPSC was all about freestyle, and finding the better way...they couldn't disallow the high cap Supers, because it was indeed a better way...But, it has just plain gotten out of hand...170mm mags, lowering the PF to 165 so you can shoot 9mm Major....and then we embark on a slippery slope...National classification of shooters, so everyone can feel good about themselves...so noone's feelings have to get trampled...and there can be mulitple class winners...and so we leave another premise of Coopers....to find out who was the Best on any given day..He did not care a hoot in hell about who was 1st C or second D...he was concerned with finding out who was Best...that by itself indicates to me, that he thought classifications were blatant nonsense...Never have I seen anywhere that quoted Cooper that he was concerned with who was Best in Class...just the best... So we have left the premise of accuracy, because we have now learned that you can win if you go fast enough...we have left the premise of power by allowing 9mm Major and the dropping of thePF to 165....and that leaves us with SPEED....and it takes both kinds to be sucessful in action shooting today...speedy gun handling, and speed of foot...if you have those two things, plus a mag with enough ammo and stages that promote speed and hosing over accuracy and skill...you can feel right at home with most stages you find today... No, I am not the Grinch...no I am not whining..I am just stating facts and how the sport has changed....and some would argue that all the changes have not been for the better... so, has the sport progressed...yes, certainly...the shooters are all better at some things that I have mentioned above but worse at some things like accuracy...we have allowed the sport to move away from the founding principals and allowed the the inclusion of multiple classes to "encourage" more winners by class, and goodness only knows why they allow 9mm major only in Open and not in other classes...sounds like a bandaid fix to the More Ammo is Better argument....to appease the shooters who did not, could not, change to hi cap pistols..so the old school was more about man vs man, individually, and it has changed to create multiple platforms supporting mulitple winners in the hopes of attracting lots of shooters.. regardless of how it strayed away from the founding principals of the sport...and stray it has/is.... sorry for the thread drift, but I got carried away...if the Mods want to edit or remove this post..feel free...But you cannot talk about old school anything without discussing the changes in the sport, both good and bad (depends on your perspective I guess) and how those changes have impacted the sport.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 bingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 This is from Jeff Maass's web site. National stages from 1985 to 1990. http://home.columbus.rr.com/jmaass/documents/sbnatls1.PDF Like many have said Box A, shoot array, move to Box B, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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