"old School" Stages

[shred]

Round count did jump up with the advent of the STI's & Caspians. "I want to make everybody reload" is what did it.

10 years ago is only 1996. I've got brass from 1996. Almost all my magazines are pre-96.

Not a whole lot has changed in that time except that more activators and random props (Stars, Clams, Trapdoors, etc) are widely available. For a while it was Prop-of-the-year. One would be seen at some major match, then everybody rushed home to copy it, and you saw nothing but that prop for the next six months until the next one came along and the first was relegated to the cobwebby corner of the prop shed. Ick.

The big equipment races I saw were the STI frames replacing single-stacks everywhere, especially into Limited and the scopes-that-stayed-working revolution. Both of those were in the early 90's. Nothing like that today.

[tightloop]

wouldn't it have been easier to ban 170mm mags instead of placing a sea of targets to force a reload....

and you are correct...the gimmick targets were the vogue (remember my friends talking about them) someone would have a different one at some match and then the race was on to see if you could have one by next month... Prop Wars...as it were...

Now help me understand how 9Major got approved for Open and nothing else..

Thanks,

Tloop

[kruger]

As much as I enjoyed reading the descriptions of the old days and rants about how things have gone down hill, I find the COF descriptions far more interesting and convincing. Looking at Jeff Maass's collection of '85-'90 COF and the 2006 Area 1 stages as well as the 2005 Area 2 stages, I see the following:

1. Round counts have gone up, but not by much. The typical "long" course was 18-24 rounds in Jeff's collection. The typical "long" course is now 26-30 rounds. I'm amazed at all the discussion over 6-8 rounds.

2. Shot difficulty hasn't increased that much. There are plenty of stages in the '85-'90 collection that are wide open. The Area 1 stages have the most hard cover and no-shoots of the bunch, the Area 2 stages the least, the '85-'90 COF's are in the middle.

3. There are more types of shooting props now. (Big surprise!) However, static targets still predominate and the most common type of shooting props are still the swinger and turner.

Looking at Ara's stages for the Cheyene shootout and 2006 Area 1, the difficulty of the shots for Area 1 and Ara's stages aren't all that different. Ara's stage have a much higher production value, but the shooting is the same.

The history of the equipment is fascinating. However, it isn't what the original topic starter was asking about.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

[ipscbob]

wouldn't it have been easier to ban 170mm mags instead of placing a sea of targets to force a reload....

Wow.....talk about drift. Maybe this should go into a new thread?

TL.....Not to flame, I am truly interested in understanding your attitude about the the sport since I hear so much of it on this forum lately. What is so abhorant about 25-30 round freestyle field stages and the use of 170mm mags? I shoot open because it is fun for me. Have you ever tried it?

[SmittyFL]

Yeah, there is no way Rob, Todd, Max or Eric would have been competitive 15 years ago. It's clearly the magazine that makes them so fast and accurate.

I'll tell ya, when they wen't from 7 round .45 mags to 8 rounds the sport just went to hell!

[tightloop]

Pardon me for reminding you, but TGO won the US title more than 15 yrs ago....it is not about who or what is competitive...it is about the departure of the sport from the tenets of the founders...old school vs new school....

I had lots more typed but imposed a self edit to keep the Moderators in check...lol

[SmittyFL]

Pardon me for reminding you, but TGO won the US title more than 15 yrs ago....it is not about who or what is competitive...it is about the departure of the sport from the tenets of the founders...old school vs new school....

It has evolved into this: Who can get the most rounds in their mag and still have it function 100%....who can run the fastest while shooting 30 plus rounds...who has the best/fastest IPSC squat to shoot thru barrels or low ports, and the guy who wins today is the guy who can best memorize the arrays of the long field courses before he shoots

That's my point. He also won 11, 21 and 57 months ago among others and he'll probably win 3 months from now. I think some folks read too much into the "tenets" of the founders because they don't or didn't want things to change for whatever reason. At it's basic root don't you think the point of starting competition was to see who was the fastest and most accurate with a pistol? You can add in combat this or realistic that but at it's root I think it was just fast and accurate. The same thing we are still doing. Sure the equipment got better, but it was all toward the goal of being fast and accurate.

[tightloop]

SmittyFl

Not trying to be argumentative, but I believe that the direction of the sport has changed from trying to incorporate equal parts of DVC to something else...what else it is, I am not entirely sure.. I do not deny that the stages which are shot today have some appeal for lots of folks, or they would not be at the range in all kinds of weather doing it...What I am saying is that thru a series of decisions brought on mostly by equipment changes, the sport isn't the same one it was when Cooper founded it..Good or bad...it is not the same...some people like it just as it is....some don't...can't make everyone happy all the time, now can we?

I don;t think words like tactical/practical, etc have a legit place in this sport...it is a game and is probably neither tactical nor practical...so we won't use them...My thoughts are that the entire thing has taken on a rather carnival like appearence what with trick props, oceans of targets, and 29+ round magazines...and the idea of scaling back on props, targets, and the need for super hi cap magazines might not be an altogether bad thing in some stages...I am not trying to harken back to those thrilling days of yesteryear...it ain't going to happen...we all know that..I do suggest that a somewhat more austere approach might be appreciated by some shooters concerning props, targets and the need for a big stick mag to be competitive.. and not all the time...just occasionally...that is all I am saying..

I am glad that there are apples and oranges and applaud the differences...but the thought of a dancing bear wearing a top hat while balancing on a big ball is kind of where this thing is going and not everyone likes to hear that...true though it might be...

So forget I got off track, Smitty, and go back to stuffing the last of the approximately 2 pounds of ammo into your Big Stick so you can be prepared if the dancing bear falls off the ball and isn't in a great mood next time you see him.

[Sandro]

I see this from both sides of the fence. The botton line this as one my shooting buddies says we have a score sheet and a timer, IPSC is a "GAME".

Ideal matches, usualy AREA matches will elaborate a mix of both, short round count, mid range round count and one or two "maybe more" 30 + plus rounds.

For the practical aspect the fact is; in real life it doesen't matter if you shoot open or single stack, your most likely going to duck and run if you are cot by surprise on gun fight.

Being young or old is a fact of life. If you're competive and don't like to loose IPSC is problably not for everyone, but then again we have super senior divison so we can attract more shooters.

If I wanted to pick my favorite division it would be Single Stack, but then again I have been shooting open now for a year and a half.

You see TGO saying everyone can run from point A to point B but, that doesen't make a better shooter. I agree with him, if you make tight shots with lots of noshoots you will scare new comers, but YES they will be better shooters after shooting.

I do agree the short stages will show who is best and how you compare to a GM on a match. If you want old school shooting; then shoot the Single Stack Division, that will tell you how good of a shooter you are.

God I love this country, they even have a division and National Championship for single stack.

Sandro

[AlamoShooter]

OLD I dont think I like the way that sounds.

[f250sd]

8, 12, 18 round stages? No 170mm mags? Standards? No texas stars or other tricky targets? No freestyle? This all sounds a lot like IDPA. doesn't it?

[tightloop]

f250sd

You know you will get punished for taking a slap at IDPA that is verboten ...even in jest..LOL

And, no it is the way "old school" matches were run...FYI...

[rtr]

I've only been shooting IPSC for a few years, so I don't have any experience with "old school" stages.

My question is, if we instantly reverted to "old school" stages today what effect would it have on match attendance? Particularly in terms of new and relatively inexperienced shooters?

[Steve Anderson]

I gotta say, as the MD for our local match I have never heard anyone ask for

more standards

less props

fewer rounds

less targets

less movement

more "practical" stages

When I first started running the match, i set the stages according to what I wanted to practice, (flex could always tell what I was working on... he'd say "you working on entering shooting areas ready to shoot?" ) now I give 'em what they want.

Hard or easy, fast or slow, simple or complicated, the best shooter always wins...

SA

[tightloop]

I must say, even with my thick skin, being a minority of ONE is kind of tough...Insert icon of Buddist Monk dousing himself with gasoline and a lighter in the other hand...

Dare I say that you never had anyone ask you for any of those things is akin to a Quaker buying a Vette....maybe they are afraid to attempt to swim against the current...maybe they think that is all there is....heck, and forgive me for saying so...maybe they don't know any better...do you think there is even a little possibility that part of TGO's ability is due to all those Standards he practiced and shot, back when he learned trigger control, and sight picture?

It is amazing the comments about this when you talk about even suggesting a change to what they are set up to shoot now....it was just a suggestion, a passing thought. Insert icon of fork in my butt...cause I am obviously very over done..

[Dan Sierpina]

The thing that the old matches would do is kind of balance the speed versus accuracy a bit. I never was real fast, even slower now! Standards would give the slower shooters a break, if they were accurate. Then, Virginia Count standards took some of that away. When I started the game, the typical match format was standards, assault (field) course, which included walls that you had to go over, and a speed stage, usually run twice to help balance the round count. Timed standards were also great to get shooters through the match, you could run 3 shooters at a time. Not so with Virginia count.

No, we didn't have the trick targets that we do today. But, without all the walls, etc, a match was set up, and taken down very easily.

As to the question of the old days being today's IDPA, the roots are pretty much the same, along with the organizers. Just additional rules, which happens with any sport as it matures.

[EricBudd]

Thanks for all the comments guys.

One of the reasons I'm asking is that we are a new club with limited props and and even more limited setup/tear down crew. I'm looking for ways to run enjoyable matches for the shooters who come that don't rely on lots of (heavy) walls or fancy (expensive) props. I thought that, since these tend to be newer additions to the sport, that a more basic approach might be acceptable and enjoyable. Or not.

When I run ICORE matches, there is a lot of box A, box B type shooting and that usually works out fine. I'm not so sure that would work out well for USPSA.

I also like the idea of having at least one accuracy\standards stage to test accuracy and force shooters to use their sights.A few months ago we shot 'Riverdale Standards' at a local match and I found the complaining about 50 yard shooting very funny. Of course, I managed to get all 18 shots on paper.

Eric Budd

[moverfive]

Thanks for all the comments guys.

One of the reasons I'm asking is that we are a new club with limited props and and even more limited setup/tear down crew. I'm looking for ways to run enjoyable matches for the shooters who come that don't rely on lots of (heavy) walls or fancy (expensive) props. I thought that, since these tend to be newer additions to the sport, that a more basic approach might be acceptable and enjoyable. Or not.

When I run ICORE matches, there is a lot of box A, box B type shooting and that usually works out fine. I'm not so sure that would work out well for USPSA.

I also like the idea of having at least one accuracy\standards stage to test accuracy and force shooters to use their sights.A few months ago we shot 'Riverdale Standards' at a local match and I found the complaining about 50 yard shooting very funny. Of course, I managed to get all 18 shots on paper.

Eric Budd

And you can still have both a "fun" stage that includes things like long range accuracy if you are using boxes. Just require that 35 yard (or even 50 yard) shot to come from Box C, for example. It was quite common in some places to have both in your face, hose-em-up targets AND 35 - 50 yard shots in the same box.

[SmittyFL]

I think the biggest difference was the boxes. Yeah, there were more standards type stages than there are now. But I think the biggest objection to the "old school" stages was the box to box thing. It takes all the creativity out of it. Just like a standards does. I think a lot of shooters enjoy figuring out a stage. You can still have a difficult shot either long or tight or both within a medium or long field course. The shooter still gets to figure out the stage while at the same time requiring an accurate shot.

I enjoy the occasional standards, classifier stages are fine, and I like accuracy requirements. What I don't like is go here shoot that, go there shoot that. I know it's basically still done through the use of ports and the like but there is just something different about saying it .vs setting up the course to force it. There are still a couple clubs around that do the box to box thing and it just isn't as much fun as freestyle.

You can have all the accuracy requirements you want, with little movement, that doesn't require large magazine capacity, within a freestyle field course. All it takes is a little thought on the part of the stage designer.

With all this talk I think I'm going to set up a standards stage this weekend.

Edited to add: The Florida State match this year is a good example. It was all field courses but one of the most accuracy intensive matches I've shot through the use of no shoots, hard cover, and distance.

Edited June 24, 2006 by SmittyFL

[Sam]

In the Great and Mighty Lexicon of Bonedaddy, (GMLB) "Practical" has always been a euphamism for shooting to save a life. Like swimming, if you can't swim well enough for the situation you find yourself in, you drown.

By my definition, an "Old School" stage is a scenario with a "reason" for being. For example: Starting inside a car or building and having to solve a problem, like ammo management, while traversing a stage with tempting distractions. The targets represent "attackers" or bad guys, doing something that bad guys might do.

The opposite of "Old School" is Politically Correct.

Political Correctness is simply a rejection of reality. If I call them "undocumented guest workers" maybe they won't rape, pillage and deal drugs when they get here.

Yes, Virginia, there are bad guys! "Bad" meaning they jack your car with your kid in the car seat or break into your house and kill your loved ones.

It is not necassary to make apologies for our sport. I don't see anyone making apologies for NASCAR for driving like mad-men in a controlled setting. Organized swimming doesn't cause drownings, it prevents them. Practical shooting is for Practical People. Old School is the basis of our sport. Every stage does not have to be OS. And I'm not a "Tactibilly". But, we need to retain the flavor to remind ourselves that we don't live in Candyland. If it helps, think of it as swimming or driving lessons.

I know this post will make some people "uncomfortable". And I laugh!!!

[titandriver]

Speakin' of "old school", I hear tell that the Cheyenne Shootout is goin' waaaaay back, gonna use a whistle and a stop watch, none o' this new-fangled electronic timer stuff! And Ara 's cleanin' up the ballistic pendulum, no need for a chronograph at this match!

[tightloop]

titandriver

Good to hear that Ara is doing those kinds of things, now just tell me what part of Old School has you tossing granades?

[titandriver]

T-loop --- near as I can figure it's to keep us old farts shoulder & elbow joints loosened up! Now if I can just see well enough to toss it through the port!

[tightloop]

Probably right..have a Great Match and enjoy....

[shred]

Here's an Old School example: Four 10-point Virginia Count poppers at 40 yards, and 4 numbered paper targets at 20. The stage description goes like this: "On signal engage PP1-PP4 with one round each. If any poppers aren't down after 4 shots, then (and only then) you must engage the corresponding paper target(s)." It's a 40 point stage and way outside today's rules.