Breaking 180

[Shawn Knight]

Is this common? I have only shot 1 single solitary IDPA match and I can see how it might happen but it seemed kind of hard. I guess it is a lot easier to do it on a fast stage with lots of turns. How often does it happen for you guys?

[AikiDale]

IDPA does not have a 180 rule. Generally there are a couple of stakes or some other marker to define the safe range of fire for each stage.

[Shawn Knight]

Oh I knew that but the guys I was with enforced it because it was indoor. I was just wondering how often you see it happen.

[mike cyrwus]

Ive only been shooting matches for 2006, and Ive never seen it.

Think "downrange" at all times.

[Viggen]

It happens. I have seen it happen.

When course design and reloading style conflict that's one place it happens.

The "border shift" reload can pose a challange to the 180 rule - such was the case on at least one stage at the IRC this year but I do not recally anyone being DQed. A tough reload for lefties and the movement was right to left. That's in the revolver world.

In semi-auto land it seems to happen when the shooter blows past a target and is going fast, then makes a desperate attempt to reach back "just a little" and engage the target or if the shooter doesn't watch their muzzel on a reload.

Edited June 21, 2006 by Viggen

[ewokUk]

Unfortunately I've had to DQ a friend for breaking the 180.

The stupid thing was that he had finished shooting, took his brain out of gear & turned round facing up-range to check the targets that he had already engaged

There were a few DQs at the world shoot last year on one particular stage, but I haven't seen any others. Thankfully most pracitcal shooters are aware of where their muzzel is pointing.

[No.343]

It can happen to even very safe shooters. I saw a good, experienced shooter get DQed because his muzzle hit the edge of a barricade as he went by. His body kept going, but the pistol stopped. He got DQed for breaking the 180. When I first started I got a couple of warnings while trying to reload on the move. Being a lefty and moving from left to right I pointed the muzzle directly away from me while moving parallel to the firing line. It was good that I got those warnings. I don't think I broke the 180, but I am now very careful about that when I move and reload. I am sure there are hundreds of other similar scenarios.

[j2fast]

I saw it happen twice this year on the same stage at a local match that had a 180 trap if there's ever been one. I got DQ'd last year for at another local match that was a result of a lapse of concentration. I ran by a target and then only backed up 2 steps when I needed to back up 4.

[1911jerry]

I got DQ'ed for breaking the 180 on my 50th birthday. My bad. The gun would not release or seat a particular mag. I did not test it before hand, just threw into the bag and went to the match. I was doing a simple shoot three targets to the left , then 3 to the right, then 3 steels in front. When I did a reload, the offending mag would not seat, I lost concentration and turned the gun up range trying to fidgure it out. The RO was firm but polite and explained what I did wrong.

It was a learning experience for me, one that I am sure I will never forget.

JS

[JFD]

I've come really close, but managed to keep it at 179.9 degrees.

Saw an experienced guy have a brain fart a couple of weeks ago. Shot through a port facing the right side of the bay. For some reason he turned to the right and was about the sweep the entire crowd. Before he had us in his sights he realized what was happening and had the gun pointed straight up.

The strange thing is the RO didn't immediately stop him. The RO either had the "it's only a local match" mentality, which is a disservice to us all, or more likely had never DQed anyone and wasn't mentally prepared for it. The shooter kind of/sort of continued moving to the next position, but obviously was waiting to hear "stop".

[Matt Griffin]

I'm sure we've all broken it to 185 or so, during a moving reload or running directly left to right, and that's when the RO lets you shoot the stage and tells you afterwards. There's breaking the absolute definition of 180, and then there's letting your muzzle stray/get knocked to where it is an immediate safety issue. I'm all for intelligent assessment of what happened rather than a no-thought DQ no matter what, but I would never argue about it. Of the big 4:

1. Always loaded

2. Never points

3. Finger off trigger

4. Know what's behind

Number 2 is still the 99% solution for safety. ADs will happen, and it's scary as hell, but so long as #2 is observed, it's just scary. I've never had an AD with a pistol, but I've had a few out shotgunning by breaking #3. However, I never, ever let #2 get within a county line of happening, so everything turns out OK.

H.

[blackdragon]

Knock on wood! I have never been DQ'd. Having said that I should have been several times over! 180-185? Depends on which club you are shooting at! And 180 traps, In my opinon are BullSh$&!

Ivan

[mscott]

I just hit about 179.5 during a mag change I hadn't planned on and in a position I shouldn't have been sucked into. I didn't realize it until it was pointed out to me, but I did think about it quite a bit. I've seen it happen by other shooters at other times as well. I'd say your mag changes could be a place to really watch your 180.

[Genghis]

On a stand and shoot stage months ago, I had a bad jam and broke the 179 trying to clear it. Wouldn't have been that big of a deal, except that a couple of guys were running a video camera at the 181. Their eyes and mine got REALLY big for a couple of seconds while we looked at each other.

[Matt Griffin]

On a stand and shoot stage months ago, I had a bad jam and broke the 179 trying to clear it. Wouldn't have been that big of a deal, except that a couple of guys were running a video camera at the 181. Their eyes and mine got REALLY big for a couple of seconds while we looked at each other.

Hrmph. I don't approve of that, frankly. The 180 exists as a minimum of safety; no rounds uprange, please. To position yourself on the 180 or 190 or the 210 is the height of stupidity. Accidents happen, and let's do our best to make them only DQs, not dead competitors. You can find me at any match, standing somewhere in the 250-290 area.

In fact, the more I think about it, the angrier I get. The RO should have his butt kicked for allowing anyone to be at the 180, or anywhere near it, especially if there is going to be action in that direction.

H.

[Genghis]

There's definitely enough fault to spread around, much of it mine.

I had another less serious incident at USPSA Area 4 last year. There was a V-shaped stage where you start at one tip, run back while shooting targets along the way, stop and shoot down the inside of the V, then run to the other tip while shooting targets. I practiced the transition from running up the V to shooting into it, probably 25 times. Did that just fine, but I shot with my arms extended through the opening into the V. "Almost" broke the 180 when I pulled them out to begin running down the other side of the V.

[knightkrawler00]

Watched one shooter get DQ'd at the Area 1 match last weekend for a 180 violation. We had to sit on one end of a bench while there was a dummy on the other, then grab the dummy and drop it in box A. The shooter stood up, drew his gun, then turned to grab the dummy.

I got warned after I finished a stage the next day about it. The RO said that he wasn't in the best position to make the call, but it made him uncomfortable. It was during a reload on the move. Closest that I have been.

[shred]

Area 1 required you to think a lot more about 180 points than many other matches I've been to-- in many if you can see it, it's not past 180.

That was definately not the case at A1. Lots of opportunity to overshoot targets and break it. That was a problem in some cases-- without clearly marked 180 points, it was up to the RO if you were over or not. A couple of them had quite different ideas of where the 180 line was than I did, so it was a good thing they showed us beforehand. I heard a few others didn't get so lucky.

[Shawn Knight]

The Todd Jarret video on Julie Golowski's web site shows an excelent way of not breaking the rule. He exagerates the gun down range to avoid it.

[kevin c]

I was taught (and try to remember to teach), "muzzle into the berm" at all times. Like TJ, we try to indoctrinate a deliberate point of the gun down range on all movement other than when actually shooting at a target.

That works for us, since most of our ranges only have the down range berm available to catch bullets, and in stage set up we try hard to keep folks from having to travel along the 180 in either direction. We have one range where you can shoot into a side berm, but have experienced RO's set it up so that you cant even see those targets once you are past the 180 on them.

[kimel]

There seems to be a current trend in stage design by some folks to use the ability to shoot very near the 180 as a test of skill.

[Shawn Knight]

Forcing someone to come close to breaking a rule used for safety doesn't seem that smart. I mean it is for safety right?

[ima45dv8]

When I set up stages I have a tendency to "steal the 180" from shooters by using No-shoots or other vision barriers. The intent isn't to eliminate DQs. The idea is to protect people uprange.

[kimel]

Forcing someone to come close to breaking a rule used for safety doesn't seem that smart. I mean it is for safety right?

That has always been my interpretation. But some stage designers don't see it this way.

I don't have a problem with targets at 160 or even 165 but by the time you get to 170 you are inviting problems.

Of course, IMHO, some stage designers design specifically with DQing shooters in mind.

[Shawn Knight]

Thanks for all the info guys and gals. I am attending my first USPSA match this sunday. They will have limited space and I hope I maintain my muzzle discipline. I more to safety than shooting. I am kind of paranoid about it, but that is for another thread.