Proposed Modifications To Us Revolver Division Rules

[Carmoney]

US APPENDIX D10 US Revolver Standard Division

1 Minimum power factor for Major 165

2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125

3 Minimum bullet weight No

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354") / 19mm (0.748")

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major No

6 Minimum trigger pull (see Appendix F2) No

7 Maximum handgun size No

8 Maximum magazine length Not applicable

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, Maximum of 6 fired before reload.

10 Max. distance of handgun and speed loaders from torso 50mm

11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies Yes

12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment No

13 Optical/electronic sights permitted No

14 Compensators permitted No

15 Ports permitted No

Special conditions:

16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired

before reloading. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements

above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

(Rule 6.2.5.1: However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements

of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available,

otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

17. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components) available to the general public is permitted. Internal and external modifications to the revolver are permitted, as long as these modifications do not violate items 13, 14, or 15 above.

18.--19. [DELETED]

20. "Self-loading" revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this Division.

Edited June 21, 2006 by Carmoney

[Waltermitty]

hmmm, no views but 7 votes? Is that how this doohickey works?

Bump.

[Nemo]

I'm in

[Airedale]

Yup, good work Mike.

Dave

[Bill Nesbitt]

Pardon me if I am still being dense.

Does this mean I can do action work or not? No where does it say I can chamfer my chambers.

What does "available to the general public" mean exactly? Can we modify parts. And will John Amidon rule the same way we think it means?

I haven't voted yet.

[caps]

US APPENDIX D10 US Revolver Standard Division

1 Minimum power factor for Major 165

2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125

3 Minimum bullet weight No

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354") / 19mm (0.748")

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major No

6 Minimum trigger pull (see Appendix F2) No

7 Maximum handgun size No

8 Maximum magazine length Not applicable

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, Maximum of 6 fired before reload.

10 Max. distance of handgun and speed loaders from torso 50mm

11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies Yes

12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment No

13 Optical/electronic sights permitted No

14 Compensators permitted No

15 Ports permitted No

Special conditions:

16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired

before reloading. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements

above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

(Rule 6.2.5.1: However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements

of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available,

otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

17. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components) available to the general public is permitted.

18.--19. [DELETED]

20. "Self-loading" revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this Division.

Two days ago at the IPSC forum, Vince made an identical suggestion, except he also deleted Point 17 too.

Edited June 21, 2006 by caps

[R112mercer]

Pardon me if I am still being dense.

Does this mean I can do action work or not? No where does it say I can chamfer my chambers.

Does it say you can't? If it doesn't, then you can. Does it say you can perform a trigger job on an Open gun? Nowhere in the rules for Open Division does it say that you can. Does that mean you can't? If it does just about everybody in Open is using an illegal gun.

The important thing is to eliminate ambiguous wording that can be misinterpreted. With the proposed rule changes Mike has kindly (and wisely) come up with any problems raised by a Range Officer who didn't know what he was doing could be quickly defeated in an Arbitration by mentioning the exact point I just raised.

[Gary Stevens]

Since it only takes Mike a few key strokes, I think that this process would be well served to "spell it out in clear language" and skip the arbitrations.

Gary

[Carmoney]

Pardon me if I am still being dense.

Does this mean I can do action work or not? No where does it say I can chamfer my chambers.

What does "available to the general public" mean exactly? Can we modify parts. And will John Amidon rule the same way we think it means?

I haven't voted yet.

The "available to the general public" means just what it says. You can buy it or build it. That would not include some special revolver that is available only to that factory's special team or whatever (which addresses at least one of RGS's concerns).

Rob's response is exactly on target. In IPSC/USPSA, the default mode has always been that you can make whatever modifications you want, unless specifically told otherwise. But, if some folks still think the rules are ambiguous, then perhaps we're not quite there yet. If Bill's not sure, then there may be plenty of other folks out there who are not sure.

Since it only takes Mike a few key strokes, I think that this process would be well served to "spell it out in clear language" and skip the arbitrations.

Gary

As reluctant as I am to change the language after the vote is underway, I am going to take your suggestion, Gary, and do exactly that, and add one more clause which indicates that modifications are allowed. I know you have significant experience in this area, and I appreciate your allowing us to benefit from that.

To those who have voted--I don't want to mislead anyone who may be following this--if this change changes your vote, please speak up and let us know, OK?

Hopefully this will do it. See above.

[warpspeed]

I'm in

[Bill Nesbitt]

Excellent.

I voted with the majority.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Pardon me if I am still being dense.

Does this mean I can do action work or not? No where does it say I can chamfer my chambers.

What does "available to the general public" mean exactly? Can we modify parts. And will John Amidon rule the same way we think it means?

I haven't voted yet.

The "available to the general public" means just what it says. You can buy it or build it. That would not include some special revolver that is available only to that factory's special team or whatever (which addresses at least one of RGS's concerns).

Rob's response is exactly on target. In IPSC/USPSA, the default mode has always been that you can make whatever modifications you want, unless specifically told otherwise. But, if some folks still think the rules are ambiguous, then perhaps we're not quite there yet. If Bill's not sure, then there may be plenty of other folks out there who are not sure.

Since it only takes Mike a few key strokes, I think that this process would be well served to "spell it out in clear language" and skip the arbitrations.

Gary

As reluctant as I am to change the language after the vote is underway, I am going to take your suggestion, Gary, and do exactly that, and add one more clause which indicates that modifications are allowed. I know you have significant experience in this area, and I appreciate your allowing us to benefit from that.

To those who have voted--I don't want to mislead anyone who may be following this--if this change changes your vote, please speak up and let us know, OK?

Hopefully this will do it. See above.

So, now that you fixed it, how do I change from NO to YES. I was pretty much done discussing so I voted NO then you go and change it (for the better) Thanks for addressing my concerns.

Regards,

[pmd]

Mike,

I don't mean this to be a thread drift...

I have been following these revolver mod discussions for quite some time.

I think it's great that you all have put in a lot of time and thought with this matter and I agree that clarification is needed. I also agree your propossed Appendix should help to clarify what can and can't be shot.

However, with that said I think trying to limit a vote/poll to "active" USPSA revolver shooters only is mistake.

I, myself just got my "revolver" classification last month - I do not claim to be an "active" USPSA revolver shooter as my focus is shooting open (right now).

Do I see myself shooting more revolver in the future - I hope so.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that there are alot potential of shooters out there that have not shot Revolvers in USPSA yet - but plan to (even if they don't know it yet).

And there are many out there that have shot Revos in the past and may plan to again in the future.

I feel that these shooters have a right to voice their opinion too.

This is just my opinion..

Thanks for listening...

Paul

Edited June 21, 2006 by pmd

[Carmoney]

So, now that you fixed it, how do I change from NO to YES. I was pretty much done discussing so I voted NO then you go and change it (for the better) Thanks for addressing my concerns.

Gary, I don't think there's any way to change the vote, but that's OK, this is just an informal gathering of everybody's thoughts anyway....ultimately, it will be up to USPSA's leadership to decide how to handle the issue....having Area 5 Director Gary Stevens following along with us gives me confidence that it will be addressed, though. Anyway, we'll just consider your vote a YES--glad to have you on board!

I guess the point I am trying to make is that there are alot potential of shooters out there that have not shot Revolvers in USPSA yet - but plan to (even if they don't know it yet).

And there are many out there that have shot Revos in the past and may plan to again in the future.

I feel that these shooters have a right to voice their opinion too.

Paul, I agree wholeheartedly. Anybody out there who believes they have a legitimate vested interest in this issue, and at least some reasonable background of knowledge in revolver shooting, should feel welcome to vote. And of course that includes you!

[10mmdave]

I'm in too, Thanks Mike !

(just wish I knew you were doing this 2 hours ago )

[AzShooter]

Mike thanks for all the effort. I hope it gets recognized.

[10mmdave]

Looks like we started a trend, over on Global Villege Vince is looking at loosing up the rules

just like we are

[10mmdave]

I was wondering.....do we really need to punish a 7 or 8 shot revo shooter by bumping

them to Open ??? Does anyone know why this came about ??

I like the way IPSC handles this and I'll still shoot a 6 shooter (I can't count )

but I was just thinking.

Anyways...

[Flexmoney]

I was wondering.....do we really need to punish a 7 or 8 shot revo shooter by bumping

them to Open ??? Does anyone know why this came about ??

I like the way IPSC handles this and I'll still shoot a 6 shooter (I can't count )

but I was just thinking.

Anyways...

I didn't know IPSC handled it different, but here it is:

(IPSC, not USPSA, Revolver)

16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired before reloading. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence.

But, that is a different issue than what is being talked about on this thread, I believe ?

[Waltermitty]

I was wondering.....do we really need to punish a 7 or 8 shot revo shooter by bumping

them to Open ??? Does anyone know why this came about ??

I like the way IPSC handles this and I'll still shoot a 6 shooter (I can't count )

but I was just thinking.

Anyways...

I didn't know IPSC handled it different, but here it is:

(IPSC, not USPSA, Revolver)

16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired before reloading. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence.

But, that is a different issue than what is being talked about on this thread, I believe ?

I like that.

It would be interesting on several stages where you're faced with a reload to make up a miss or to make that 7th or 8th shot on the typical USPSA array (and a bunch of classifiers). With reloads adding 2+ seconds to overall times, the math could be interesting....

So would a split, an Alpha, and a 10 point procedural make a better score than a 2+ second reload plus an Alpha? Hmmmmmm...

Just to add fuel to the fire, if a bottom feeder misses a mandatory reload, they don't get kicked to Open, they just get a procedural per shot fired. What's the difference with the six shot rule?

Edited June 21, 2006 by Waltermitty

[Bubber]

I finally voted. I believe what Mike has is sufficient. It allows us to play withour toys. The crux of the probelm was having a revo deemed illeagal because a competitor drilled holes in his underlug thus giving him an advantage (what advantage, IF ANY, I could not tell). In the Limited Division the modifications that are not allowed is drilling of ports in the barrel everything else is fair game. In the Revo Division we are told what we can do,not only what we can't do, Just give us the same leaway.

[caps]

Just to add fuel to the fire, if a bottom feeder misses a mandatory reload, they don't get kicked to Open, they just get a procedural per shot fired. What's the difference with the six shot rule?

Nothing. The illegal thing is not the gun, it's the shooter's actions. I think IPSC got it right.

[10mmdave]

(IPSC, not USPSA, Revolver)

16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired before reloading. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence.

But, that is a different issue than what is being talked about on this thread, I believe ?

Agreed, it is a different issue, but I thought since we are trying to re-write the rules here

why not bring it up

Trying to explain the rule to shooters who want to try out USPSA revo with there 8 shots

get antzy when I have to tell them that there score goes to the open section of the list if they

shoot more than 6 shots.

They have no problem loading 8 and shooting 6, and no problem getting a penality if they

count wrong, but when they hear they'll be tossed to another division they think twice.

If we don't have a consensus to fix it then I won't bring it up again.

[Waltermitty]

I would definately be on board with making any shots past 6 a procedural issue instead of an equipment violation bumping the shooter into Open.

But I would pity the poor RO's running gamers with 627's

Of course, it's no worse than policing Limited 10 with double stack mags and Single Stacks with long mags....

[Carmoney]

I'm not in favor of changing the application of Rule 6.2.5.1 in this situation. Keep in mind this rule is not just a revolver rule, it also controls shooters in other divisions who game the equipment beyond the division rules. I think this one could be a slippery slope.

I don't like the idea that somebody would decide to shoot Revo with an 8-shot revolver, just to have that extra round to use now and then whenever one more quick shot to finish the stage would be preferable to taking an extra standing reload or scoring a miss. I don't think it would affect anybody at the higher end of the match results, frankly, but if we're going to try to attract more shooters into pulling out "Grandpa's .38" and shooting with us, the last thing we need them to see is that sort of stuff going on.

Remember how many people felt that SIX-RELOAD-SIX was our fundamental rule, and the rest didn't matter too much? Rule 6.2.5.1 just helps keep everybody honest.

And, if you're shooting a 7- and 8-shooter, and you make an honest mistake and pop off an extra round, then no big deal, you smack yourself in the forehead and have fun the rest of the match shooting in Open.

I say leave this one alone.