Should There Be More Revolver Gms?

[pskys2]

I have to disagree with you Waltermitty, Jerry Miculek never once entered my mind as a factor in entering Revolver Division. I shot Revolvers on occassion when there were NO Divisions.

As for blowing the curve you can look to Eric Grauffel, TGO, Jerry Miculek, et al when the money's on the line. But as for the curve of the classifiers, they can get set by some lucky schmuck at a major match who is pushing real hard.

I'd say don't worry about it, just come out and shoot.

[dgsmith]

I think we need some kind of adjustment to clasification. At area 6 I managed to get 70% of Jerry on a classifier. Yet when it hit the books it turned into a 54%. He had done it somewhere else faster. We are at the wrong end of the curve when it comes to Jerry. He shoots at a pace where most of us cannot come close. But if he flubs a reload you see the other jerry who can crank up the speed another notch, and still beat us handily.

[Waltermitty]

I have to disagree with you Waltermitty, Jerry Miculek never once entered my mind as a factor in entering Revolver Division. I shot Revolvers on occassion when there were NO Divisions.

As for blowing the curve you can look to Eric Grauffel, TGO, Jerry Miculek, et al when the money's on the line. But as for the curve of the classifiers, they can get set by some lucky schmuck at a major match who is pushing real hard.

I'd say don't worry about it, just come out and shoot.

To clarify, I'm not saying that you or any other individual shoots Revolver Division solely because of Jerry M. What I am saying is that if Jerry wasn't in the game, the rules committee, led by most of our USPSA Officers, would have eliminated revolver division already; and if participation does not increase substantially, the division is at risk with every rules update.

If Jerry were to move on to something else, no one outside of our little group would be able to name enough shooters (top shooters or otherwise) in our division to stave off the USPSA President and the majority of Area Directors and Section Coordinators that state openly and publicly that they would eliminate the hassle of having to recognize Revolver Division because there isn't enough participation.

It is my opinion that this is the greatest issue facing those of us that enjoy the division. If more GM's would increase total participation, I'm all for it. But if recognizing more GM's only achieves a more appropriate recognition of those top-tier shooters mentioned above (and others) that deserve it, it is of secondary concern to me.

Fixing the classification system would be no silver bullet (sorry for the pun) but it's the B, C, and D, shooters that fund the other divisions, not the M's and GM's. If there is a market segment out there that would shoot if they weren't relegated to C or D status in revo when they are B or even low A shooters with high cap limited guns, I would like to see us get a chance to tap that market before the party's over.

As I'm confident someone like Jimmy Brister (4 division GM) would testify, it's just plain harder to shoot revo at any typical match. Other games, like IDPA and ICORE were formed because the Open and Limited divisions got to be too fast for a significant number of people. I don't know if there are enough shooters out there to make a go of it, but I will say that I'm beginning to see faces at the ICORE matches we're running in OKC that I haven't seen at the USPSA matches before. That's not taking pie from the other divisions, that's making the pie bigger by bringing in more new (or old) shooters.

There are millions and millions of revolvers sitting in drawers and closets around the U.S. that would make good competitive platforms for B and C class shooters with the expense of only a dozen speed loaders and some holsters. I know one shooter (Bubber) that competes with such a setup, and believe me he is good, but in USPSA he is classified as a "B" shooter (68.42%) while in ICORE he has over 95% classifier scores; a GM if ICORE had such a thing above Master.

I apologize for the length of this post, but here's how I'll try to sum up: until the average guy can make "C" class with his old .357 mag and 8 speed loaders, we'll never get the numbers we need to build a viable division. I think there's a chance that fixing the classification system could do that. Will that result in more GM's? Probably, don't care much. But until we can field 20 "C" & "D" class shooters at every match, not 20 revo shooters total, we might as well get our minds right to become a "category" like Juniors, ladies, and old farts, not a Division.

[Sean Gaines]

Jerry's not inhuman. There are guys that can put up 95% of his score in a big match, and I bet several more that could do it on a stage or two like a classifier. I'm thinking some of them aren't even sponsored either.

REVOLVER (STANDARD) -- Overall Match Results

World Shoot XIV

Printed agosto 28, 2005 at 21:11

% Points Competitor Cat Reg Cls

1 100.00 2765.4470 617 Miculek, Jerry S USA

2 96.92 2680.1927 906 Lopez, Ricardo ECU

3 92.77 2565.6320 379 Dietrich, Bjorn NED

I would like to add last oct. I talked with Jerry M. about the world shoot

this one with the high percents from other parts of the world.

The first day Jerry had no vision he said up until mid second day did his front sight vision

come clear. He told us that he was getting a pounding from these guys

and it wasn't until the last part of match that he pulled it out.

All I'm sayingf is you need all the facts.Numbers are just numbers if you

don't have and the info.

Point taken, HOWEVER, we are talking about our NATIONAL classification system. Mr. Lopez and Mr. Bjorn ( both VERY accomplished wheelgunners) do not regularly shoot in our region, nor do they contribute to our classification system in any regular way. Please list some people IN REGION (the US) who can hang with the demigod of revolver division...Mr. Miculek. I think our very humble revolver forum contributors (Walsh, Carden, Carmoney and Keen) are about the only ones within 10-15 percent of him at nationals or any other major match for that matter. We are trying to keep up with the likes of a legend like the late Ed McGivern (sp?). How can that be the only measuring stick???

didnt Jerry have the Bird Flu at the time of World shoot not taking anything away from the other competitors, they shot an excellent match. what I would like to know when was the last time Jerry lost a match in revolver?

[pskys2]

What I'm trying to say is I don't believe there are too many that stay out of a Division, or get into it, due to the top dogs. It's more about what they think will be fun, or make them look cool, or whatever. But it's always a personal reason, except for some at the very top who have to please a sponsor.

You are right about the marketing of our Division though. It seems USPSA "thinks" Revolver Division won't be a good draw. The majority of shooters seem to feel that way also. What I don't understand is it's just as hard to make B, A, or M in any of the other Divisions. What may be the difference is the lack of gadgets to make us think we're getting better in Revo Division. The only trick here is sweat, or winning the genetic string lottery. If you hit a wall in Ltd 10 with a SS, you can get a STI, load 10 and gain an edge over your previous performance.

I also think the best way to change that is what you, Hopalong, Carmoney (Ia. Revo only Match) and I, among others, are doing. Showing up at matches shooting and having a good time, letting others see how fun it can be. Also working with match organizers promoting the Division and trying to intice others in.

I know after the Kansas Sectional where we had 16 Revo's, I've had several express interest in getting involved. Though I did have a couple that were actually stunned at the level of skill of the competition in Revolver Division.

[AZ38super]

We have a large list of top quality revo shooters in our club and a majority of them shoot only the revo. They just don't travel to the major national matches.

There are several that shoot 8 shots with dots and can hold thier own in open class that way but doing so in a national match is another thing and is it worth the cost when they can have the same amount of fun closer to home.

We usually run 40 to 50 shooters at our monthly ICORE match so there are shooters there.

I myself am a C class open shooter working to get that extra push into B class with my 38 Super STI. I managed to classify as a C reveo shooter right off and I consider myself way under many of our shooters here. I just don't shoot my 686 7 shot in a lot of USPSA shoots because I'm afraid I will pull off the seventh shot and push myself into open. I think that is to strong of a penalty.

I enjoy shooting a dot over metalic sights with my bad eyesight but it is not a fair place in open against 28 rounds big sticks and USPSA is not likely to add an open revo anytime soon.

[Waltermitty]

We have a large list of top quality revo shooters in our club and a majority of them shoot only the revo. They just don't travel to the major national matches.

There are several that shoot 8 shots with dots and can hold thier own in open class that way but doing so in a national match is another thing and is it worth the cost when they can have the same amount of fun closer to home.

We usually run 40 to 50 shooters at our monthly ICORE match so there are shooters there.

I myself am a C class open shooter working to get that extra push into B class with my 38 Super STI. I managed to classify as a C reveo shooter right off and I consider myself way under many of our shooters here. I just don't shoot my 686 7 shot in a lot of USPSA shoots because I'm afraid I will pull off the seventh shot and push myself into open. I think that is to strong of a penalty.

I enjoy shooting a dot over metalic sights with my bad eyesight but it is not a fair place in open against 28 rounds big sticks and USPSA is not likely to add an open revo anytime soon.

What equipment do you see your ICORE shooters using? Particularly newbies?

While I agree with Brother pskys2 that we don't have as many wiz-bang gadgets as Limited and Open, in some ways our equipment barriers are just as intimidating to new shooters.

Any time a new guy shows up here and asks what he needs to bring to shoot USPSA revo, he gets one answer (with a few quibbles from the 610 crowd) I wonder how many folks we run off when we can't answer honestly that any six-shot you own with typical speedloaders can be competitive enough to get you into C class?

I wonder if there's a way to figure out if that would be true if only Revo classifiers were considered for Revo division?

The IRC has an obscenely rich prize table and sold-out matches way out in the PRK with revo shooters traveling from the world over to play.

What ingredient are we missing?

Oh, and Bubber finished 16th out of 193 overall. Looks like about 12th in Open division.

Rob Leatham was second over all shooting Limited!!

Brother Dan was 10th!

Ah, go see for yourself Probably need another thread.

http://www.icore.org/archive/2006/IRCOverAllResults2006.html

[pskys2]

Point taken Waltermitty, maybe locally do the basic thing. And switch to the 625 for a big match.

I might have to drag out the 6" M28 with speed loaders and play for awhile.

Keep it basic, HK Speed Loaders, Stock Sights, Kydex Holster it might be fun.

Major or Minor?

There's a good Revo Shooter at KC that shoots a Ruger with Jet Loaders. And Bubber took my lunch and ate it at the Sunflower with his 686 and Jet Loaders. A back to basic summer might be fun.

[AFDavis11]

I'd like to ask a related question. I was reviewing the Top 20 and am wondering why a 93% Production shooter is a GM and a 94% Revolver shooter is only a Master classification.

[Carmoney]

The Production guy once hit 95% but then his percentage has dropped back down below that level since.

Excepting special circumstances, once you hit a certain class in USPSA, you never go back down.

[Waltermitty]

Point taken Waltermitty, maybe locally do the basic thing. And switch to the 625 for a big match.

I might have to drag out the 6" M28 with speed loaders and play for awhile.

Keep it basic, HK Speed Loaders, Stock Sights, Kydex Holster it might be fun.

Major or Minor?

There's a good Revo Shooter at KC that shoots a Ruger with Jet Loaders. And Bubber took my lunch and ate it at the Sunflower with his 686 and Jet Loaders. A back to basic summer might be fun.

Double Action and I joined ICORE, and with Bubber's expertise we actually launched a bonafide ICORE club in Oklahoma City to try to figure out what may be possible. It's way too dern much work, but I've committed myself to work for at least a year to give it a chance.

Uncle Mike's is well represented so far, along with Taurus, snubbies and HK speedloaders.

If we can get the ICORE club off the ground, we might just learn a thing or three about what we need to do in USPSA revolver division. It may be that they're two different markets and will forever be.

At our first ICORE classifier match I shot my 625 for a 75+% making B class Limited easily. ICORE Limited division permits 7 & 8 shot revos by the way. In USPSA I'm barely a "B" and haven't broken 65% in 2 1/2+ years of semi-serious effort.

OK, so I suck. But comparing Apples to Apples I'm a 10% better Revo shooter in ICORE (where I'm still learning "the game" they play) than I am in USPSA where I've been playing much longer.

I'm sure there's something important in the IRC's (ICORE) success. I'd like to figure it out, not to steal shooters from ICORE, but to add shooters to USPSA. If we can keep the division separate and tweak it a little it may be entirely possible.

[AZ38super]

I'm sure there's something important in the IRC's (ICORE) success.

One of the big keys is the stages are designed for the 6 shot wheel gun, plate racks are set with 5 not six and so on.

Most USPSA stages and classifiers are designed for the high capacity gun market. Open and Limited are where the majority of shooters are and they design to challenge them.

While this is fine for the hardcore wheelgunner it is extremly hard on the casual or new shooter.

I'm not saying everything in USPSA has to become 6 shot friendly and don't expect it to be.

But most complex stages are designed in a way that forces a revo shooter to do extra standing reloads because of how target arrays are set up.

Now as an Open shooter I like the complex high round stages, but I see the side of the 6 shooter also even when I don't play that game as often.

[Hog Sniper]

Another Newbee view:

I dont know much about the classifications or how they work. The whole idea of getting more shooters to compete in the revolver division is an acceptance thing...

I became interested in the Revolver class pretty much on a dare..(Bamboozled by Carmoney!)...I have shot two matches so far. The first match I was the only guy shooting revolver out of about 150 shooters...I got all kinds of comments in the morning about how I was looking to make things difficult and that I would soon give up shooting the big old 45...Etc. By the afternoon I had a few guys approach me and say that after watching me shoot they were thinking about switching to revolver for the summer blast....Go figure..On my second match we had about 7 revolver shooters and the level of shooting felt like it went up a notch.. People started watching the times and scores a bit more...The summer blast should be great with 24 Revolver shooters as of now.

I guess its a case of the old peer presure thing.....It seems in my limited experience that once someone sees another revolver shooter they start to catch the wheel bug again and it seems OK to shoot the revolver...Not to mention newer shooters with semi-autos are being blown away by the more experienced shooters... In my limited experience it seems that the slower pace of the revolver is more appealing to the newer shooter.

I have to admit that being a life long bottom feeder this wheel gun thing is fun... Frustrating but Fun! Thanks for sparking the intrest Carmoney...

[Carmoney]

Gary, you're welcome!

And you're right about how more and more people are being attracted to the fun of shooting a revolver in USPSA. I've only been shooting IPSC/USPSA regularly since the summer of '04, but I have never heard a negative word (other than good-natured kidding around) from anyone about shooting the wheel. Quite the contrary!

At Area 3 this past weekend, I had my electronic muffs turned up all the way and heard an RO on one stage whisper to the other, "Man, I just love watching these revolver guys shoot, don't you?" The other RO said, "Definitely." At lunch Dave W. and I were grilled for equipment information by a well-known and influential shooter who's obviously thinking about gearing up for Revo.

More and more people are wanting to join the fun! And we welcome them!

[cliffwalsh]

I think we need some kind of adjustment to clasification. At area 6 I managed to get 70% of Jerry on a classifier. Yet when it hit the books it turned into a 54%. He had done it somewhere else faster. We are at the wrong end of the curve when it comes to Jerry. He shoots at a pace where most of us cannot come close. But if he flubs a reload you see the other jerry who can crank up the speed another notch, and still beat us handily.

We all have to remember that your % on the books at Sedro is not based on Jerry or any other revo shooter but a % of Limited.

That is part of the problem. Most people do not know this and think they are not good revo shooters. Some classifiers are good for the revo's and some are not. There are some that Jerry will not be able to get 100%.

Until we get a classification based on revo scores, the class system will not reflect true skill level.

[pskys2]

If they would measure us against JM or any other top Revo, then there is no bad course for a Revolver. Just some measure primarily Reloading Skills.

I'd be OK with any of the "Top" GM's practicing with a Revo for a bit and shooting the classifiers. It would definitely be better if JM did it.

Hey, Michal Bane how about filming a classifier grudge match with Taran, TGO & JM. Might we be able to entice Brian into it? How about a blast from the past like a J.Michal Plaxco?

Set up a dozen varied sanctioned USPSA Classifiers and run these guys thru at warp speed. These are mostly courses with little movement, so you could really place your camera's for maximum effect.

C'mon Mr. Bane, whaddaya say?

[professor]

Just thought I'd add some numbers to the discussion on whether there should be more GMs, and the effect on Revolver division.

First of all, JM is the only GM, and he is without a doubt the best match revolver shooter in USPSA. But he didn't get there shooting classifiers. He got there by winning the Nationals several years in a row, while NOT shooting classifiers. Check out his classifier record and you'll see his current 100% is based on 5 first place finishes at major matches, plus a 100% score on CM03-05. There are 10 classifier scores on his record, and that score on CM03-05 is the only one in the GM range. Based on the best 6 of the last 8 classifiers he has on record, his average would be 89.2204%. Please note that I am not saying that he couldn't score 100% on any given classifier... I'm saying that except for that one, he hasn't scored even 95% when shooting a classifier in a regularly scheduled local, area, or national match. And that is a reflection on the unrealistic HHFs on many of the classifiers out there.

Also, the USPSA scoring policy on the other divisions is to include your finish in a major match as a classifier score if there are several GMs shooting. In Revo division, the scores count for the Nationals and if JM is shooting the match. Since no one has yet beat JM at a major match [the highest 2nd place finisher is in the low 80s], unless and until he slows down or someone else puts on a phenomenal finish, no one is going to "shoot for GM" by winning or scoring better than 95% of his 100% finish.

I think we all realize that the Revo high hit factors are based on a percentage of the Limited HHFs, not on any real results by revo shooters. That, coupled with the additional reloads we have to do on many of the classifiers, makes for a bunch of the classifiers with totally unrealistic HHFs.

So our gifted shooters, including the 16 Masters we have who shot their way onto the list with 6 of 8 classifier scores averaging above 85%, face a nearly impossible task. They might hit one or two GM level classifiers, but those are always super performances with the way the HHFs are skewed, and no one has yet put a string of 6 to 8 together, to achieve an average >95%. They might win HOA in Area matches with 20 other revolver shooters, but that doesn't count to elevate them to GM, because Jerry isn't there. Of course, if he were shooting, he'd win, and the 2nd highest revo might get another 80 - 85% score, LOWERING his classifier average.

Others have said that we need more B, C, and D shooters in revo, but this is the unintended consequence of the current situation. New shooters try revolver, find that their efforts don't produce a very high average, and unless they are a diehard revolver enthusiast, they try another division. Guess what? They score a lot better in that division [whatever it is] than in revolver division, because the HHFs we have to score in many of the classifiers are not achievable. And the top revo shooters go to Area matches and win or score really competitively, but that doesn't count toward their classification, because Jerry isn't there. It's a wonder we have the number of shooters that we have, with USPSA policy actively discouraging our continued participation in the division.

In case anyone remembers, the HHFs are supposed to be based on the average scores of the best ten [10] shooters in the division. That hasn't happen, and apparently it isn't going to happen, unless we make a lot more noise with the BOD. The HHFs are also supposed to be adjusted as time goes on and as higher scores are achieved by the best shooters. That isn't happening either. So as equipment improves in Open, Limited, Limited 10, and even Production, the HHFs in those other divisions are TOO EASY for their shooters, leading to "grade inflation" in those divisions. Meanwhile, our division member scores are artificially suppressed.

We NEED more GMs, because then the best of our shooters will have the opportunity to be recognized for their superior ability in this division. Let's face it. Other division Master shooters consider themselves on a par with our Ms, even though their "grades" are inflated while ours are suppressed. And with more GMs, other shooters at Area matches will have the chance to advance in grade by HO in their class, or even by HOA at the match, absent Jerry.

Maybe the new set of classifiers will help. With all of those steel speed shoots, we can let it all hang out and go for sheer speed, with some assurance that you'll get a good score if you get all your hits, and you'll get a "throwaway" score if you have to reload to pick up a miss. Then, on a steady diet of these "all or nothing" classifiers, we have an honest chance of scoring our way to GM status.

[Carmoney]

Since no one has yet beat JM at a major match [the highest 2nd place finisher is in the low 80s]....

Just for the record, Cliff surpassed the 85% mark at the 2005 USPSA Nationals.

You make some excellent points, though, Stan.

Edited June 21, 2006 by Carmoney

[shred]

Just thought I'd add some numbers to the discussion on whether there should be more GMs, and the effect on Revolver division.

think we all realize that the Revo high hit factors are based on a percentage of the Limited HHFs, not on any real results by revo shooters. That, coupled with the additional reloads we have to do on many of the classifiers, makes for a bunch of the classifiers with totally unrealistic HHFs.

...

In case anyone remembers, the HHFs are supposed to be based on the average scores of the best ten [10] shooters in the division. That hasn't happen, and apparently it isn't going to happen, unless we make a lot more noise with the BOD. The HHFs are also supposed to be adjusted as time goes on and as higher scores are achieved by the best shooters. That isn't happening either. So as equipment improves in Open, Limited, Limited 10, and even Production, the HHFs in those other divisions are TOO EASY for their shooters, leading to "grade inflation" in those divisions. Meanwhile, our division member scores are artificially suppressed.

Actually, they are raised in other divisions now, after a long time of being all over the map, which means the HHFs will creep upwards if needed and current %'s are not inflated. The "average of best 10 scores" assumes there are 10 shooters (well, ten runs) of top-class ability around. Do we have that in Revo? Would it just turn into the average of Jerry's best 10 runs? Taking the next top 10 runs that come in will way inflate the scores-- if I picked a few obscure ones, I could have a 100% in Revo and we all don't want that.

The Revo HHFs are very broken. That needs to be fixed. IMO, it does not need to be fixed by artificially creating more GMs, it needs to be fixed by creating real HHFs that really mean 100% and not deriving them from Limited. It's pretty clear that people can hang with Jerry for a stage or two, if not a match, and that's all it takes for classifiers.

[Cuz]

I agree, USPSA could sponser a classifier match for JM over a weekend and get some baselines. He could probably shoot them at home and mail in the results! I'd trust him.

Maybe we can just email him a bunch of the classifiers and let him set them up himself too. Forget the USPSA sponsorship, he may just do it for the fun of it...

[D.carden]

I agree, USPSA could sponser a classifier match for JM over a weekend and get some baselines. He could probably shoot them at home and mail in the results! I'd trust him.

Maybe we can just email him a bunch of the classifiers and let him set them up himself too. Forget the USPSA sponsorship, he may just do it for the fun of it...

Hell.................I'd be up to going to JM's place and shoot with him if he does that.

Shooting with the worlds best might just be the ticket to moving up a bit......I've always liked that kind of pressure........Could be good for all who shows up

Anyone else..????

[revchuck]

Anyone else..????

Aw, heck, I'd do it! It's less than a four hour drive for me and I'd be the comic relief. ("Say...is Chuck still on that same reload?")

[Carmoney]

Anyone else..????

Yep. Anytime, anywhere.

[pskys2]

Professor, I think you help my argument. I believe a Revo Classifier Grudge Match set up with several GM's (even if from other Divisions, but with an interest in Revo) shooting USPSA Classifiers would be the way to go. Then use them to set the HHF for Revo.

As in any other endeavor unintended consequences could rear it's head. If JM doesn't shoot classifiers particularly well then so be it. My guess is if it's in a Match Situation against others, even for pride, he'd do very well.

If low 90% scores are the best that can be done by a JM or TGO, then set the bar there. If they hit astronomical numbers and totally blow the curve, so be it. At least it would be done with a Revo. If someone beats that HF great, when enough get there you can readjust the HHF.

Remember that GM was established in the early 90's due to the many who had finally made it to Master (I think it was right at 100) but the same few kept winning. So GM was established and set at 95% to help remedy that little discrepancy.

There are some who thrive on pressure. Without that pressure they don't stand out quite so much. JM and TGO are legends (rightfully so) for a very simple reason, their performance level consistently increases exponentially with the amount of pressure applied.

That's why you can see smoking runs on a Classifier, yet that shooter never wins any major matches. It's easier for a skilled shooter to smoke a run here or there than to string together a Match under pressure.

[luttrell625]

Hey guys, this is Stephanie. I aggree that USPSA needs to offer more recognition to the Revo division, and start factoring our classifier against what we actually shoot, not some arbitrary percentage of an entirely different division. I don't buy the argument that there just aren't enough revo classifiers on record, and I believe that on the revolver I am better than C class, although that is where my percentages landed me. An insufficient number of classifiers on record may have been the case originally, but it certainly cannot be the case today. If USPSA wants to grow as a sport, it is missing a big chance. What Mike and I see with new shooters is that they are intimidated buy USPSA, with the loud open guns and the "spray and pray" mentality of many of the guys running 20 round mags. ICORE, for a lot of shooters, is a friendlier place to start. The two sports have a lot of similarity, though, and maybe if USPSA rules and traditions did not treat us six shooters with disdain they might just bring in people that otherwise would stick to more revolver friendly sports like IDPA and of cours ICORE. With auto and revolver shooters there is often an "us vs. them" mentality that hurts the sport.