Should There Be More Revolver Gms?

[Carmoney]

Several of my friends have suggested that we need more GMs in the Revolver division of USPSA. (Right now there are 16 "earned" Masters in Revo--about half of whom are actually active on the match circuit--plus our lone GM, the big guy himself, Jerry Miculek.)

Now conceptually I agree it would be great to have more GMs, but I'm concerned about the way it's likely to happen under the current classification system. Think about it--the next guy who makes GM in Revolver is probably not going to be somebody who can truly compete at a GM level--it'll be some shooter from a 9-person club in Alaska (I'm picking that state purely arbitrarily since I can't think of any Alaska wheelgunners off the top of my head--no offense intended to anyone in particular), who shoots and re-shoots and re-shoots local club match classifiers until he finally turns a run and sends it through to Sedro. This shooter might be the guy who selects the classifiers (choosing only the six-round-neutral stages from the 03-series), and he might even be the club's statistician for all we know. Of course, we'll never see him at a major match.

OK, fine, you say, we all know there are "paper GMs" in the other divisions. True. Then again, we all know the difference between the paper GMs and those who can truly compete at the highest levels of national-level competition. The guys who shoot to win. The guys who (with a bit of practice and transition time) could still be competitive at the GM (or at least high M) level shooting pretty much any gun in pretty much any division.

Well, I would submit that right now we have exactly one of those guys in Revo, and that guy is Miculek. He's a bona fide GM, as he has repeatedly proven in the past. In fact, Revo might be the only division right now where we actually have it right--where the GM title is appropriately awarded, and not watered down by a faulty system.

I've also heard some people comment that Jerry should not be factored into the Revo classification system, since he is a "freak of nature." Now don't get me wrong, he is undoubtedly the best revolver shooter of all time, and he is truly gifted. But he's also probably put more rounds downrange through his revolvers over the past 25 years than anybody else on this planet. He's the best example I can think of where raw talent has met sheer long-term effort, and produced a true Grandmaster of the game.

On the other hand, Jerry is also the only shooter in our division who has been given the privilege and luxury of being a professional shooter over a period of years. It should not be all that shocking that many of the best shooters in the various divisions are those who can truly shoot for a living (Leatham, Sevigny, and the Army boys are examples that come to mind). Of course, there's a big downside potential in trying to make your sport and hobby into a job, but that's a whole 'nother discussion....

Anyway, this is all just some food for thought, and I don't mean to sound absolutist on any of this stuff. I do like the idea of more Revo GMs, but I'd like to have it really mean something when and if it happens. There are a number of dedicated revolver shooters who continue to make progress in Jerry's direction, so the next few years should be pretty interesting!

[Patrick Sweeney]

My late mother raised me to believe I was as good as anyone out there, and better than most. For the rare occasions when that wasn't true, she told me one thing: "work harder."

Were I the emperor of classifications for a day, I'd ring up Jerry, have him shoot every classifier he could manange in the time available, and post those as the Revolver 100% factors.

Should my classification slip to "B" or "C" under that plan, I would not be embbarassed. I'd just work harder.

If that poor sod in Arkansas (or wherever) grandbags himself to a Revolver GM, he'd better be prepared for a drubbing. Every other wheelgunner out there would be more than happy to kick his ass in a match.

[10mmdave]

Talking with the guys driving home from a USPSA match yestrday they mentioned

something about if you have "X" number of GM's in a division then that match becomes

a classifire match ?

So if we had more GM's would this hurt anyone at a major match ???

(I have no idea and still haven't finished reading the rule book, I keep falling asleep and

falling off the hopper )

I check my scores on the Ohio page and see 100%+, then for a giggle I put the same hit

factor in for Lim 10 and comes out B class

I dunno !

[AZ38super]

I know it is extra work for the ones doing the classifications but in order to really no where the Revo stands in classifiers then we need our own numbers and not based on Limited scores minus a percentage as it is being done right now.

And yes Jerry throws off the curve for most revo shooters, so as it was stated then use his scores as the 100% mark and go from there. Then at least you are using revo to revo and not limited.

[Flexmoney]

Well, I would submit that right now we have exactly one of those guys in Revo, and that guy is Miculek. He's a bona fide GM, as he has repeatedly proven in the past.

I agree.

Jerry can set down the Revolver and make GM in any division he so chooses.

[Vlad]

Well, I would submit that right now we have exactly one of those guys in Revo, and that guy is Miculek. He's a bona fide GM, as he has repeatedly proven in the past.

I agree.

Jerry can set down the Revolver and make GM in any division he so chooses.

Here is the question I had for some fellow shooters a few weeks ago: Would it be better for the revolver division if Mr Miculek DID set down the revolver and shot a different division for a while? While I fully admire his achievments, he is so far ahead of the field, I wonder if his 10% to 30% lead at any match discourages more people from shooting revolver, or if it encourages other "top" revolver shooters to move on to other divisions just so they have a chance at winning.

I'm not a revolver shooter, so I don't have a serious opinion on the subject. What do you guys think?

[pskys2]

I'd like to see Jerry do all the classifiers and use them as the top, not the % thing. Other than that, leave it alone. I could care less how many GM's, or M's, there are.

There's usually not enough in a Revolver class to even give an award. But, some day?

I'm most impressed when someone shoots their class solidly in a big match. But, not even those who diligently work within the system will, or can, do it on demand.

Right now I'm more concerned about getting interest, and then participation, up in Revo. Then the class thing will take care of itself.

[Waltermitty]

I think we have a revolver division in USPSA strictly because of Jerry M., and the publicity, notoriety and money he brings to the game. There is little doubt in my mind that without Jerry bringing in more than his fair share of interest and money, the current leadership of USPSA would fold us into Limited or Production, or do away with us completely in a New York minute. So I don't want to see Jerry put down his revolver anytime soon.

Having said that, the revo classification system is jacked up and isn't working under current application. It would seem to be fairly straightforward (from a database standpoint) to sort and export the top ten scores for all division classifiers and use those to establish the hit factors and classes for everybody.

I'm pretty comfortable blowing off the classifiers as it is, but I think that for a certain important number of folks, even a little bit of class inflation would have a big impact on competing in the division. Any inflation would be the result of drawing from the much smaller pool of revo classifiers being turned in; not any intentional effort to skew the stats.

As it stands, we've got difficulty piled on top of challenge, and while some of us like it that way, the typical C&D class semi-auto shooter can't stand the double whammy of 7, 8 and 9 shot arrays (even on classifiers) with a real-live-honest-to-goodness double action trigger pull (even Randy Lee can't get down to the trigger pulls you can get with an off the shelf Production gun, much less any run-of the mill Limited gun).

And before any of you semi-auto shooters chime in and say we choose to shoot our own equipment, yeah, that's right, and we're told we're only competing with other revo shooters; but that's not right when it comes to classifiers.

So do I think we need more Revo GM's? Well, that may happen if we fix the system, but what I think we really need are more M's and A's and B's from our current crop of C's & D's based on how they stack up to other active revo shooters.

[R112mercer]

Talking with the guys driving home from a USPSA match yestrday they mentioned

something about if you have "X" number of GM's in a division then that match becomes

a classifire match ?

From what I remember you have to have THREE GM's of good quality in your Division (this is determined by Sedro) at a Level III match for it to be used to determine your Classification. If all of these criterior are met AND Sedro chooses to use this match to determine your Classification (they don't have to) your percentage score in that match will be used to determine your new Class.

This is detailed on page 21 of the green book, though they don't mention the three GM's part, only that certain wins at Level III matches are cause for promotion. According to the rulebook HOA at an Area Match is an automatic move to GM. There are a number of us here who have taken HOA at Area Matches and aren't GM's...

In addition, shooting the Nationals counts as a Classifier (i.e. your match percentage contributes to your Classification percentage).

[AFDavis11]

I wanna chime in too, but I'm really new so please forgive my ignorance. Just take it as a grain of salt of what newbies are thinking.

I think Jerry's scores shouldn't apply. Not because he is a "freak of nature" but because he is sponsored. He didn't get where he is at by sponsorship but the advantage he has at this point make his scores out of balance with anyone who is not sponsored. If any of us were to get sponsored tomorrow our classifier scores would skyrocket, from practice ammo alone. Yes, the other Divisions should also not quantify sponsored shooters. They should win all the money, but how are they a part of the "sport"?

I'm still puzzled by the reasons I have heard that revolver shooters can't be scored against other revolver shooters. I'll just leave it as me not understanding that one at all.

I'm still trying to understand if we are really compared to Limited shooters at 70%, or Limited -30%. I'm sure I must have it wrong. Its clear to me that the closest comparison you could make would be against Limited 10 at 60% (Limited 10 -40%) since we load exactly 60% of the ammo available to that Division. Factoring out that they reload much faster than we can and their guns absorbs more of the recoil produced per shot.

Sorry, random ignorant thoughts of a newbie.

[Barrettone]

Several of my friends have suggested that we need more GMs in the Revolver division of USPSA. (Right now there are 16 "earned" Masters in Revo--about half of whom are actually active on the match circuit--plus our lone GM, the big guy himself, Jerry Miculek.)

Now conceptually I agree it would be great to have more GMs, but I'm concerned about the way it's likely to happen under the current classification system. Think about it--the next guy who makes GM in Revolver is probably not going to be somebody who can truly compete at a GM level--it'll be some shooter from a 9-person club in Alaska (I'm picking that state purely arbitrarily since I can't think of any Alaska wheelgunners off the top of my head--no offense intended to anyone in particular), who shoots and re-shoots and re-shoots local club match classifiers until he finally turns a run and sends it through to Sedro. This shooter might be the guy who selects the classifiers (choosing only the six-round-neutral stages from the 03-series), and he might even be the club's statistician for all we know. Of course, we'll never see him at a major match.

OK, fine, you say, we all know there are "paper GMs" in the other divisions. True. Then again, we all know the difference between the paper GMs and those who can truly compete at the highest levels of national-level competition. The guys who shoot to win. The guys who (with a bit of practice and transition time) could still be competitive at the GM (or at least high M) level shooting pretty much any gun in pretty much any division.

Well, I would submit that right now we have exactly one of those guys in Revo, and that guy is Miculek. He's a bona fide GM, as he has repeatedly proven in the past. In fact, Revo might be the only division right now where we actually have it right--where the GM title is appropriately awarded, and not watered down by a faulty system.

I've also heard some people comment that Jerry should not be factored into the Revo classification system, since he is a "freak of nature." Now don't get me wrong, he is undoubtedly the best revolver shooter of all time, and he is truly gifted. But he's also probably put more rounds downrange through his revolvers over the past 25 years than anybody else on this planet. He's the best example I can think of where raw talent has met sheer long-term effort, and produced a true Grandmaster of the game.

On the other hand, Jerry is also the only shooter in our division who has been given the privilege and luxury of being a professional shooter over a period of years. It should not be all that shocking that many of the best shooters in the various divisions are those who can truly shoot for a living (Leatham, Sevigny, and the Army boys are examples that come to mind). Of course, there's a big downside potential in trying to make your sport and hobby into a job, but that's a whole 'nother discussion....

Anyway, this is all just some food for thought, and I don't mean to sound absolutist on any of this stuff. I do like the idea of more Revo GMs, but I'd like to have it really mean something when and if it happens. There are a number of dedicated revolver shooters who continue to make progress in Jerry's direction, so the next few years should be pretty interesting!

I simply cannot go along with the idea that Jerry Miculek is the only "true GM". I have seen people like Sam Keen, Mike Carmoney and Cliff Walsh shoot, and I truly feel that they are GM caliber shooters. They are all far to modest to say so, but the fact is, that they are the bar IMHO. They are not "paid guns for hire" who are sponsored and can shoot until their hearts content with free ammo. The problem is, that they are being compared to someone who has all these luxuries (and don't get me wrong...THEY ARE WELL DESERVED!!! Jerry is the best, and deserves all the accolades). I think Jerry should DEFINITELY be PART of the equation, but not the ONLY INGREDIENT. The top 10 (highest HHF's on record) should all be averaged to come up with what is the 100% HHF in Revolver Division IMHO.

Let me justify what I have just said above. We have another gentleman who busts the curve in Open Division by the name of Eric Grauffel. He is the world champion, and deserves all the credit for his hard work. HOWEVER, he and his father travel the world and shoot and instruct for a living. They are on a shooting merry-go-round, and do nothing but practice FOR A LIVING!!! Eric wins almost every major he shoots, and has no peer. How would it be then, if he was the one that we based all our open classifications on??? Hell, most guys can't get within 90% of him as it is at a major match. We don't do that in open though...we average the top 10 HHF's to get the percentage. WE NEED TO DO THE SAME FOR REVOLVER.

People in all divisions (Limited, Limited 10, Open and Production) all get classifiers reported that are over 100%. There are always going to be people who can do so...But they are treated as the exception, and not made the BASELINE!!! A curve-buster shouldn't be the sole factor in establishing our HHF's. I hope this makes my point clearer. I do not in ANY WAY want to take away what Jerry has earned. He is a LIVING LEGEND IMHO!!! I think he is the greatest guy in the world to talk to, and he and Kay are both class acts to the extreme. They give back to the sport with Junior Camps, Ladies Camps, and are always willing to give someone advice or help out a new person. So PLEASE...do not take anything I have said above as a slam on Jerry.

I hope this clarifies my point.

[Waltermitty]

I wanna chime in too, but I'm really new so please forgive my ignorance. Just take it as a grain of salt of what newbies are thinking.

I think Jerry's scores shouldn't apply. Not because he is a "freak of nature" but because he is sponsored. He didn't get where he is at by sponsorship but the advantage he has at this point make his scores out of balance with anyone who is not sponsored. If any of us were to get sponsored tomorrow our classifier scores would skyrocket, from practice ammo alone. Yes, the other Divisions should also not quantify sponsored shooters. They should win all the money, but how are they a part of the "sport"?

I'm still puzzled by the reasons I have heard that revolver shooters can't be scored against other revolver shooters. I'll just leave it as me not understanding that one at all.

I'm still trying to understand if we are really compared to Limited shooters at 70%, or Limited -30%. I'm sure I must have it wrong. Its clear to me that the closest comparison you could make would be against Limited 10 at 60% (Limited 10 -40%) since we load exactly 60% of the ammo available to that Division. Factoring out that they reload much faster than we can and their guns absorbs more of the recoil produced per shot.

Sorry, random ignorant thoughts of a newbie.

I think you make a good point about the "Pro" versus "Am" distinction. Some of us have time to reload after work during the week and shoot matches on the weekends. That by itself has a big impact on everything from practice to travel schedules.

If it's so cut-and-dried that revo is 70% of Limited (could be Limited is 90% of Open?) maybe we ought to just factor that into the scoring program (handicapping if you like, like in Golf) and we'll all just shoot heads up. Put my average finish in my last 4 sanctioned matches into an average classification and let's have a horse race! You know, like Man-on-Man side matches where you get 3 pieces of steel down because you're a C class Limited up against a Master Open?

So If I averaged 50% of the winner of the last 4 matches I was in, my match points would be multiplied by two, then, is that how that works?

Who took my pipe, I need another toke.

[shred]

Jerry's not inhuman. There are guys that can put up 95% of his score in a big match, and I bet several more that could do it on a stage or two like a classifier. I'm thinking some of them aren't even sponsored either.

REVOLVER (STANDARD) -- Overall Match Results

World Shoot XIV

Printed agosto 28, 2005 at 21:11

% Points Competitor Cat Reg Cls

1 100.00 2765.4470 617 Miculek, Jerry S USA

2 96.92 2680.1927 906 Lopez, Ricardo ECU

3 92.77 2565.6320 379 Dietrich, Bjorn NED

[Barrettone]

Jerry's not inhuman. There are guys that can put up 95% of his score in a big match, and I bet several more that could do it on a stage or two like a classifier. I'm thinking some of them aren't even sponsored either.

REVOLVER (STANDARD) -- Overall Match Results

World Shoot XIV

Printed agosto 28, 2005 at 21:11

% Points Competitor Cat Reg Cls

1 100.00 2765.4470 617 Miculek, Jerry S USA

2 96.92 2680.1927 906 Lopez, Ricardo ECU

3 92.77 2565.6320 379 Dietrich, Bjorn NED

Point taken, HOWEVER, we are talking about our NATIONAL classification system. Mr. Lopez and Mr. Bjorn ( both VERY accomplished wheelgunners) do not regularly shoot in our region, nor do they contribute to our classification system in any regular way. Please list some people IN REGION (the US) who can hang with the demigod of revolver division...Mr. Miculek. I think our very humble revolver forum contributors (Walsh, Carden, Carmoney and Keen) are about the only ones within 10-15 percent of him at nationals or any other major match for that matter. We are trying to keep up with the likes of a legend like the late Ed McGivern (sp?). How can that be the only measuring stick???

[redmist10]

Here is the question I had for some fellow shooters a few weeks ago: Would it be better for the revolver division if Mr Miculek DID set down the revolver and shot a different division for a while? While I fully admire his achievments, he is so far ahead of the field, I wonder if his 10% to 30% lead at any match discourages more people from shooting revolver, or if it encourages other "top" revolver shooters to move on to other divisions just so they have a chance at winning.

I'm not a revolver shooter, so I don't have a serious opinion on the subject. What do you guys think?

Personally, I enjoyed the hell out of being mere 65% of him at the Nationals . Have I worked harder to raise that percentage - not particularly. I've got a lot on my plate and don't devote the time to become greater than B Class right now but if I devoted my time and energies to that alone I have no doubt I could make the rise like Caremoney, Hopalong, Lefty45, etc...the proof is in their efforts.

BUT - being 65% of him gave me such satisfaction as to desire to become 85% of him someday. With work, school, and a 2yr old...today is not that day. But that day may come when I can adjust my priorites. Until that day I will enjoy having someone so talented to admire in my division and our sport.

I can't imagine a bench player saying "yea, I played with Babe Ruth but he wasn't really good for the game. He was just too good." I think most of the top shooters just don't shoot revolver because...it's a revolver. What is their incentive? There is none. You have to enjoy revolver for what it is or you are not likely to try it. Most guys won't bother with the "handicap" when they can shoot what they know and enjoy it more.

I agree, USPSA could sponser a classifier match for JM over a weekend and get some baselines. He could probably shoot them at home and mail in the results! I'd trust him.

My $0.02

Edited June 20, 2006 by redmist10

[Carmoney]

There are a number of other excellent wheelgunners out there who keep a slightly lower profile than us "Amigos" (not that it's hard to do that!) and are just emerging on the national scene now. This is a great thing because it will allow the serious Revo competitors to keep pushing each other to greater heights.

Jerry has not been beaten often in the past with a revolver, but it has happened. And I am sure it will happen again, somewhere, sometime. We are continuing to push closer and closer!

Maybe what somebody needs to do is set up a special revolver match with 10 (or better yet, 20!) USPSA classifiers, sign up some real sponsors, and pay out real prize money, and we all shoot heads up. Since there's real money on the table, the shooters will behave like it's a real match, and not simply try to burn every classifier off at ridiculously unrealistic speeds, right? We make sure all the top wheels are there, even our international revolver brethren, and particularly Jerry. The top score on each stage becomes the actual high hit factor that everybody else is measured against on that classifier from that point on. And we keep on repeating this match year after year until we've shot all the classifiers in the book!

Good idea, huh?? How about it, Smith & Wesson--are you up for sponsoring this big event??

[Bill Nesbitt]

As far as Jerry being sponsored, I remember in the early 1980's when he was cleaning up at Second Chance. He was working as a Deputy Sheriff. Now there is a high paying job that will pay for a lot of bullets.

Jerry got sponsored the same way everybody else who is sponsored did it. They worked their butts off while working a normal job.

[BIGDEER]

I'm a newby here and am hesitant to post but here we go.

I don't even shoot a revolver in competition, but let me ask this one question.

Who would you base your classifications on if Jerry was not even in the picture?

There would be No GMs, or would every one just go up a classification?

Food for thought.

BIGDEER

[tightloop]

Jerry won't shoot forever....

[cmzneb]

I keep seeing this Carmoney guy at the top of the Revolver class at matches...... I think I'm seeing another GM real soon.

Nice Shooting at Area 3 Mike!

Chris Z

[Carmoney]

Thanks Chris....but everybody remember now, I'm the one who pointed out that Jerry is the ONLY member of the wheelgunning contingency who truly justifies the title Grandmaster....at least at the present time. And I think Jerry is GREAT for our sport and our division in every way (other than I think he could lean harder on his employer to do more to support us out here in the trenches!!)

OK, here's another cool idea, while we're brainstorming....how about some sort of multi-gun GM, where you have to prove competence (in real major matches, not some local club circle jerk) in ALL recognized USPSA divisions!! Think those hot-rocks Open kids could handle it?

[SIX SHOT]

If Sam Keen is for real, then there must be 4 Amigos! Great, but don't leave out Tom Kettells or my buddy John Burkholder, both are the real deal. Wonder what would happen if 3 of the Amigos, plus Jerry, east of the Mississippi shot against 4 from west of the Mississippi, that would be Dan Carden, Tom Kettells, Rich Bitow & John Burkholder! Now boys, that would be a major shootout! Fun to speckulate!!!

Rich Bitow is aging & has gimpy knees but when he's hot, he can really run that 25-2 & it is one beautiful gun! Not!!!!!!

Dick

[Carmoney]

Dick, if you're putting Jerry and me in the "East of the Mississippi" category, you better break out the atlas!!

(But just for the record, the way you have the teams aligned, the "east" team would win decisively. Guar-on-tee!)

Edited June 20, 2006 by Carmoney

[cheetahs]

Jerry's not inhuman. There are guys that can put up 95% of his score in a big match, and I bet several more that could do it on a stage or two like a classifier. I'm thinking some of them aren't even sponsored either.

REVOLVER (STANDARD) -- Overall Match Results

World Shoot XIV

Printed agosto 28, 2005 at 21:11

% Points Competitor Cat Reg Cls

1 100.00 2765.4470 617 Miculek, Jerry S USA

2 96.92 2680.1927 906 Lopez, Ricardo ECU

3 92.77 2565.6320 379 Dietrich, Bjorn NED

I would like to add last oct. I talked with Jerry M. about the world shoot

this one with the high percents from other parts of the world.

The first day Jerry had no vision he said up until mid second day did his front sight vision

come clear. He told us that he was getting a pounding from these guys

and it wasn't until the last part of match that he pulled it out.

All I'm sayingf is you need all the facts.Numbers are just numbers if you

don't have and the info.

Point taken, HOWEVER, we are talking about our NATIONAL classification system. Mr. Lopez and Mr. Bjorn ( both VERY accomplished wheelgunners) do not regularly shoot in our region, nor do they contribute to our classification system in any regular way. Please list some people IN REGION (the US) who can hang with the demigod of revolver division...Mr. Miculek. I think our very humble revolver forum contributors (Walsh, Carden, Carmoney and Keen) are about the only ones within 10-15 percent of him at nationals or any other major match for that matter. We are trying to keep up with the likes of a legend like the late Ed McGivern (sp?). How can that be the only measuring stick???

[hopalong]

Six Shot,

I like that Idea.

The best place to do that would be the Nationals, but slots are pretty well gone, and I'm running my Limited gun this year.

The next best would be A-2 but slots for it are so "iffy" also to try something similar.

I do know Jerry and I will be shooting the Louisana gator classic in October and I will be running either my 25-2 or one of my 625s, bring as many other wheelgunners with you as the more the merrier. Also Elliot Eysen(SP) another M will be there....btw I'm not a M except in dumb azz.

I also would suggest Carmoneys Iowa Revolver championship, but Jerry won't be there as far as I know....seems like he's just a little busy. And I'll be at the North Carolina Section match (level III) if I'm shooting a match that weekend.

Don't worry, I'm not offended by the comment and just wish we all could get together and have a big ole real revolver match with all the fun and comradery that I know will be at a match like that.

Now back on the subject, Bigdeer made a pretty good point.....what if Jerry never had shot a revolver? and was shooting say Limited or Production? Would we be looking at the current list of Masters and saying "Since there is no GM in USPSA revolver, these guys need to be it?"....Who knows?

I personally would like to see out own data base and then let the "classifications" fall where the do. but what do I know? I'm just a dummy that shoots.

SAM KEEN