Case Separation In 9 Mm Major Open

[Radical Precision Designs]

Hmmm ... perhaps we should have some kind of "Poll"...

Maybe a poll to illustrate the instances somebody had an ACTUAL case failure relating to major loads in 9mm (Major) and the specifications comprising the loads? Of course not failing to mention little details like powder, primer, bullet, length, crimp, case mfg., and not forgetting to include barrel length and manufacturer (if known), and lastly if the barrel had any "blow holes".

A similar reference for the same instances regarding the .38 Super/Comp for comparison purposes would really shed a lot of light too. Hmmm ...

Some posters have actually admitted to reloading the .38 Super/Comp several times with no ill results, once thorough inspection of the cases (a good practice) was done. Yet only a few have admitted to reloading the 9mm more than once. Perhaps is the $$ economy factor and not having the need to do so, unlike with the .38 Super/Comp???? I know for a fact that quite a few shooters have loaded the same 9mm (Major) cases more than once with no failures, or symptoms, at a par with the .38 Super/Comp cases.

Some manufacturers have stated/pointed to the fact that 9mm cases are in fact designed for higher physical pressures and abuse than the .38 Super/Comp. The 9mm is/was actually designed to be used (in specialized "very hot" factory loads) for full-auto fire (including "slam-bang"). Not so the .38 Super/Comp.

"Unofficially", I have heard more case separation stories about the .38 Super than the 9mm. and also more case failures with the 10mm than with the .40 S&W. Any theories floating about from fellow forum members ???

[L9X25]

"Unofficially", I have heard more case separation stories about the .38 Super than the 9mm. and also more case failures with the 10mm than with the .40 S&W. Any theories floating about from fellow forum members ???

Venry,

That comment is certainly NOT supported by what I have witnessed. When you consider the number of folks shooting major 9 and the amount of time that they have been shooting it, when compared to the same stats for the super class of cases the % incidence of a failure is multiple times higher for the major 9. I saw numerous .40 case failures (mostly with 200 & 220 gr projectiles and Clays) and have NEVER seen a 10mm case failure. If someone pops a 10mm case they tried hard to make that happen. I personally reloaded bowling pin ammo to 240pf and reused the cases multiple times without a single failure.

You and I must be living on opposite ends of the world.

[eric nielsen]

I shot about 8000 rounds of 9Major, all of it 1.160" or shorter. All the 9x19 cases I have started as once-fired from a police range, first shot thru Glock 17 guns. Mostly Winchester nickel-plated. Also reloaded some of the Hirtenberger brass after shooting the +P+ ammo.

Quite a few [maybe 2000] rounds fired were thru my own practice brass so that would be a total of 3 or more firings on the cases with no problems. No splits, no separations, no bulges at the back end.

Did NOT pick up any 9x19 cases off the ground at matches.

Most all my 9major ammo was with HS6 powder or 3n38 powder. I tried other powders but 7625 was not one of them. I think it's a little fast & a little too compressed for my comfort.

Just a guess but it sounds like 7625 may be the "Clays" powder for 9major. Dozens of people who use it & like it & dozens [or 100s] more who stop & change to something else.

my 2c

[Radical Precision Designs]

"Unofficially", I have heard more case separation stories about the .38 Super than the 9mm. and also more case failures with the 10mm than with the .40 S&W. Any theories floating about from fellow forum members ???

Venry,

That comment is certainly NOT supported by what I have witnessed. When you consider the number of folks shooting major 9 and the amount of time that they have been shooting it, when compared to the same stats for the super class of cases the % incidence of a failure is multiple times higher for the major 9. I saw numerous .40 case failures (mostly with 200 & 220 gr projectiles and Clays) and have NEVER seen a 10mm case failure. If someone pops a 10mm case they tried hard to make that happen. I personally reloaded bowling pin ammo to 240pf and reused the cases multiple times without a single failure.

You and I must be living on opposite ends of the world.

Leo-

I figured you would chime in. After all you do resize the 10mm to shoot .355 bullets and load it to "unholy" numbers. I too used to do unholy things with the 10mm, but with the heavier bullets at regular diameter. I did separate quite a few 10's, although they were more kind of splits, as the cases would split half way leaving half of the case behind, sort of like enough to make a .40 Super-Short. Maybe is the way brass flows in the longer cases, or chamber friction towards the mouth. I really don't quite understand it as the case walls of the 10 are thicker (normally) than the .40 S&W. Perhaps is the tendency to utilize the case capacity to lure the shooter to put in "more" of the faster powder meant for the smaller sibling?

Some numbers from SAAMI may shed some light. The 9mm Luger +p is listed for pressures up to 38,500 PSI, while the .38 Super+p is listed for 36,500 PSI. The .40 S&W is listed for 35,000 PSI, and the 10MM Auto is listed for 37,500 PSI. The real "eye opener" is the .357 Sig which is listed for a 40,000 PSI. ( Yep, I've managed to separate .357 Sig during "special" testings too.) By now we understand that the SAAMI numbers apply to "lawsuit conscious" factory ammo, and we as competition shooters exceed those numbers daily, as our equipment is designed (usually) to handle much higher pressures than necessary to comply with commercial ammo makers.

While the 9mm Major "explosion" of common users has not been going for as long as the .38 Super, the emphasis has been put on replicating the performance of it. Having the wrong formula can spell disaster in any cartridge nomenclature. The issue here really is the "case life expectancy" of the 9mm as compared to the common acceptance of the .38 Super, which some shooters are trying to replace it with. $$ Money savings off cases cost, while important do take a back seat to safety parameters.

Leo. Here is real heresy: maybe someday the .357 Sig will replace the 9X25 Dillon? Wait! Give me a head start while I run for cover.

So far the only real drawback with loading the 9mm Major is being carefull not to spill the powder while loading the slower burning/higher volume powders, and then using the denser/heavier or faster burning powders that could/can get you into trouble.

[L9X25]

Leo-

I figured you would chime in. After all you do resize the 10mm to shoot .355 bullets and load it to "unholy" numbers. I too used to do unholy things with the 10mm, but with the heavier bullets at regular diameter. I did separate quite a few 10's, although they were more kind of splits, as the cases would split half way leaving half of the case behind, sort of like enough to make a .40 Super-Short. Maybe is the way brass flows in the longer cases, or chamber friction towards the mouth. I really don't quite understand it as the case walls of the 10 are thicker (normally) than the .40 S&W. Perhaps is the tendency to utilize the case capacity to lure the shooter to put in "more" of the faster powder meant for the smaller sibling?

Some numbers from SAAMI may shed some light. The 9mm Luger +p is listed for pressures up to 38,500 PSI, while the .38 Super+p is listed for 36,500 PSI. The .40 S&W is listed for 35,000 PSI, and the 10MM Auto is listed for 37,500 PSI. The real "eye opener" is the .357 Sig which is listed for a 40,000 PSI. ( Yep, I've managed to separate .357 Sig during "special" testings too.) By now we understand that the SAAMI numbers apply to "lawsuit conscious" factory ammo, and we as competition shooters exceed those numbers daily, as our equipment is designed (usually) to handle much higher pressures than necessary to comply with commercial ammo makers.

While the 9mm Major "explosion" of common users has not been going for as long as the .38 Super, the emphasis has been put on replicating the performance of it. Having the wrong formula can spell disaster in any cartridge nomenclature. The issue here really is the "case life expectancy" of the 9mm as compared to the common acceptance of the .38 Super, which some shooters are trying to replace it with. $$ Money savings off cases cost, while important do take a back seat to safety parameters.

Leo. Here is real heresy: maybe someday the .357 Sig will replace the 9X25 Dillon? Wait! Give me a head start while I run for cover.

So far the only real drawback with loading the 9mm Major is being carefull not to spill the powder while loading the slower burning/higher volume powders, and then using the denser/heavier or faster burning powders that could/can get you into trouble.

Venry,

My experience with 240+pf loads was with conventional 10mm and 200 gr bullets. I never attempted to build 9x25 bowling pin loads at all. In 9x25 I have torn cases in half, as you describe, but that was due to headspacing issues and not pressure. During a "case tear" no pressure escapes and you are merely left with half of a case still in the chamber.

I have considered .357 sig as an alternative to 9x25, and did some testing, but we are forced to use N-105 powder. This is a nice comfortable load but it can also be replicated in .38 Super with more mag capacity. Once again, all we have gained is cheap brass but lost capacity.

Just for some background on me, I shot (and still own) a 9x21 Tanfoglio Gold Team pistol. I made 182PF at 1.150 with 124 & 130 gr projectiles and never experienced a case failure. I mainly used CP +p+ cases and loaded them numerous times. Careful reloading and respect for the danger are all keys to safety. I am not anti 9 major, but hate to see it sold for something that it is not.

Leo

Leo

[XRe]

Yet only a few have admitted to reloading the 9mm more than once. Perhaps is the $$ economy factor and not having the need to do so, unlike with the .38 Super/Comp????

Quite a few just leave it laying on the ground after one Major PF load - mainly because it's cheap to replace, not because of concerns about abuse to the cases (though I've heard one shooter tell me that he leaves his for that reason...).

Some manufacturers have stated/pointed to the fact that 9mm cases are in fact designed for higher physical pressures and abuse than the .38 Super/Comp.

Let's get something clear. Lumping .38 SC and .38 TJ into the same bucket w/ straight semi-rimmed .38 Super (or even +P) is rather unfair... totally different case construction. The SC and TJ stuff is very thick walled, tough stuff, designed for the abuse that we put cases through at old Major w/ 115s. .38 Super never was, but somehow survived, once we started using ramped barrels....

The 9mm is/was actually designed to be used (in specialized "very hot" factory loads) for full-auto fire (including "slam-bang").

According to most references, the cartridge was designed to be a more powerful version of 7.65mm Luger Parabellum round, and was designed along w/ the Luger pistol. It was later adapted to serve as a submachine gun and carbine cartridge, and was "hopped up" to higher power level for those firearms.

"Unofficially", I have heard more case separation stories about the .38 Super than the 9mm.

If you go back in time, of course - until supported barrels came about - it was quite common, I'm told. Due to rules in place by IPSC, no one was loading 9mm to Major for competition purposes for most of that time, either. It's not exactly a fair comparision. While case specification drawings don't always reflect what a manufacturer makes, looking in my Speer #11, it's quite apparent that .38 Super has much thinner walls and case web than 9mm...

For comparison, go hunt up the case sectionings that shred did and posted on this forum of .38 SC and .38 TJ brass... I think you'll find those quite enlightening.

Can anyone point out a case failure w/ .38 SuperComp or .38 TJ brass??? I certainly haven't heard of one, at this point... totally different stuff from .38 Super....

and also more case failures with the 10mm than with the .40 S&W.

This I would tend to doubt. I've seen a ruptured 10mm case that took apart a Glock 20 once (and saw the Glock, too...). I've seen reports (with pictures) of far more .40 problems, and have seen a case blowout in person, as well (not that that one occurence means anything statistically...). 10mm is built awful damn strong. You'd really have to try to take it apart or make a huge mistake (like, use the wrong powder by accident) to cause a problem. It's a magnum class case, after all...

Maybe is the way brass flows in the longer cases, or chamber friction towards the mouth. I really don't quite understand it as the case walls of the 10 are thicker (normally) than the .40 S&W. Perhaps is the tendency to utilize the case capacity to lure the shooter to put in "more" of the faster powder meant for the smaller sibling?

Look at a case sectioning or diagram - sounds like right where the walls thin out and become a constant thickness to the case mouth. As the brass is worked, that naturally can develop a weak point in that area...

And, yeah, if you're using more of the fast powder, instead of switching to more of the slow powder, that could certainly do it As you point out w/ SAAMI pressures, the 10mm isn't really rated to that much higher pressure than the .40 - what it *does* have is a lot more case capacity, allowing you to jam in a bunch of slower powder, and drive the bullet faster without causing unacceptable pressure spikes, etc....

we as competition shooters exceed those numbers daily

No joke

[gino_aki]

Here on Maui where Major 9 is an academic exercise...yeah you could shoot it...but why? You need more than ten rounds? I always hearken back to the last time Major 9 went around and my thoughts are the same now as they were then...I already know that .38 Super and it's variants are pushing the envelope SAAMI wise, I don't need to go playing with something that offers even less margin for error.

Something I'd like to find out from you mainland guys...does the extra round or two or three really have an effect on your match placings? Are your stage HF"s getting significantly better because of the extra rounds? Or is it mainly the safety-net factor (Whew! Glad I got the extra rounds for those last two plates!) that makes you more relaxed/focused when shooting a stage?

[sfinney]

Here on Maui where Major 9 is an academic exercise...yeah you could shoot it...but why? You need more than ten rounds? I always hearken back to the last time Major 9 went around and my thoughts are the same now as they were then...I already know that .38 Super and it's variants are pushing the envelope SAAMI wise, I don't need to go playing with something that offers even less margin for error.

Something I'd like to find out from you mainland guys...does the extra round or two or three really have an effect on your match placings? Are your stage HF"s getting significantly better because of the extra rounds? Or is it mainly the safety-net factor (Whew! Glad I got the extra rounds for those last two plates!) that makes you more relaxed/focused when shooting a stage?

Its not the extra rounds, its the cheap brass...... that feeling of just walking away from a stage without feeling like you left last weeks paycheck on the ground

[blkbrd]

In the past 17,000 rounds of 9mm Major using 125gr Zero JHP's @ 1.16", I have had 3 case head-web seperations. 2 were quite spectacular blowing the mag out of the gun and making my face look like a coal miner, I was never hurt just startled.

All of these have been using "Once fired"??? brass I bought in bulk, it was clean but mostly fired from Glocks with some machine gun ammo thrown in just for kicks, and to test my U die.

2 of the cases were Winchester and one was a UMC. In each case upon microscopic inspection of the cases you could see they had pre-existing cracks and tarnish in the web area where they blew out.

I have no doubt they were just waiting for me to load up to major PF after being pre-stressed in an unsupported chamber. Primers on all 3 actually looked like the case pressure was low at the time it let go, indicating to me the case was bad to start with.

The powders were Power Pistol, True Blue and Silhouette for one each at 170PF.

From the testing I have done I feel safe with HS-6, 3N37, Silhouette and Power Pistol. True Blue scared me with high pressures at major out of my shorty with blow holes, and have not tried 3N38.

I have seen Supers & 40's blow also, and each time appeared to be due to overworking of the brass. In the 9x23 and supers case it was from case pros working the shoulders and on 40's it was due to Glock chambers. We all have our our own risk vs. cost?

If you can afford new supercomp brass for every round you send down range you have my admiration. I can't so I will shoot my 9mm Open gun that costs less to shoot than my limited gun & I will continue to research loads and try and be safe with what I have to work with.

[shred]

FWIW, I've had 10mm cases full-length crack on the first firing after being converted to 9x25 (poor stress-relief from the MFG combined with the extra sizing stress), but the same batch work great for 10mm pin loads.

I've also just hit 90,000 rounds on my 1050 loading nothing but Supercomp/TJ, mostly Major, had some cracked cases (easy to sort by the 'jingle' method) and I doubt I've bought 10K new brass since I started with the 1050, but no case head separations or blowouts at the base-- Supercomp & TJ are built right.

[Cameron]

I had my first case/head issue this weeked at A7. Winchester brass (once fired), 3n37 at 1.160

[Radical Precision Designs]

FYI-

My favorite cartridges in order of "liking" are: (1-) 45 ACP, (2-) 10 mm Auto, (3-) .357 Sig.

Yet I do use a lot of .40 S&W, mainly because the cost and availability of 10 mm Auto factory loads and/or cases have become a real hardship, especially on the "once fired brass". Otherwise I would be using 10mm Auto for Limited rather than .40 S&W. (Blame it on the FBI "tampering")

I use 9mm for minor because as a factory cartridge you can't beat the prices.

I use 9mm for Major, again because I shoot humongous amounts, and it stops me from going broke. In addition I treat the 9mm Major loads to similar standards of handling as I would the .38 Super, including case inspection and choice of powders. Most likely you will find me using 121- 124 gr. bullets rather than the 115's. ( Heck, I save at least from one to two grains of powder per load to make major!) If I was given a "real" choice for Major with a .355/6 bullet, I would gladly opt for the 9X23 ( or as some people call it:"the overgrown 9mm").

When most customers ask me what caliber to suggest for their next/new Open blaster, my answer usually is: .38 Super/Comp. (and yes all the Open guns I and other 'smiths build will handle both the Super and Super-Comp cases.) I have actually reamed a few Open guns that were built as 9mm into .38 Super/Comp, especially some of the new "Shortys".

As for a defense/carry load you will usually find me with a .45 ACP or a 10mm Auto. I doubt it very much you will find me me carrying a 9mm. After all 9mm Major is usually not an option for a carry gun because of its "custom handload" classification should you be invoved in an actual defense encounter. On some ocassions I will carry a .40 S&W or .357 Sig, just for "variety".

It is good that many of us in these BEnos Forums live in the U.S.A. where we are able to enjoy so many choices, freely, and commonly. Many other shooters/competitors do not.

I am enjoying this free exchange of opinions and fact/finding regarding the 9mm, its virtues and short-commings. Thanks, Edwin Garcia, for starting it. Maku Mozo!!!!!

[XRe]

If you can afford new supercomp brass for every round you send down range you have my admiration.

God knows I can't - I pick up as much of it as I can and use it again.... and again, and again... On average, it ends up cheaper for me than buying 9mm "once fired" from the average place online and leaving it on the ground after one firing, and perhaps slightly more expensive than buying 9mm and reloading it several times. Not counting brass prices, my .38SC loads are cheaper than my .40 loads....

Oh, BTW - for lost brass matches, I find it helpful to have worked a major match during the year. At SCC, I lost brass that I picked up at DoubleTap... Hey, BigLucky, I need that 2nd batch for the Nationals!!!!

[edwin garcia]

I am enjoying this free exchange of opinions and fact/finding regarding the 9mm, its virtues and short-commings. Thanks, Edwin Garcia, for starting it. Maku Mozo!!!!!

Venry,

What a 'pandora's box'! I knew when it happened that i have to immediately post this issue here.

I'm very new with 9mm major and I think a lot of people are too.

I guess we can save a few fingers(at least) from injury by foregoing with this discussion.

Personally, it did give me a better insight on my next move, but the options that I have right now are numerously confusing

My ultimate objective would still be to enjoy this sport and shoot as safe as possible.

Edited June 12, 2006 by edwin garcia

[dansy]

I put 22k in my Stinger 9mm Major last year.....broke three ambi's, one scope mount, one scope OKO and one slide.....brass was cheap reload it a few times...until the primer pocket would feel loose, which for me was 4 time counted the once fire.....by somebody else....I was using HS-6 and when able to find....3N37.

Now I'm shooting a shorty in 38 SC (TJ Brass) yap I hate picking brass at matches....but it's a lot softer on the hand, I just couldn't believed how harsch my Stinger was until I shoot both side by side..oh ya I'm reloading the 38 SC with 7625.....

Edited June 12, 2006 by dansy

[Jon Merricks]

I have shot lots of 9 major over the last 3 years. I have really shot some well used brass,,,I know dumb me but it was free. My main 2 powders were HS-6 then HS-7. I loaded my rounds out past 1.180. Some of my brass had way more than 5 firing. They only problems I ever had were some splits from the good end. I do not suggest doing as I did but wanted to make a point to use slower powder as JL and other stated and also load longer. 9 Major is safe it's us dummies that mess it up.

[Jaxshooter]

It is the powder. I had the same problem in 38super with 7625 in a shorty. I now use 3n38 or N-350 and have not had the problem since.

[Harmon]

i burned a pound of 7625 in my 9mm, and about 3 pounds HS6, 4 pounds power pistol and a pound and a half of Silhouette(so far)

I really like the silhouette best. no pressure problems even at 180 PF and its easy to load.

[MTrout40]

I've been shooting 9 major wtih 7625 for the last two years with no problems at all. I think I've burned around 55 lbs of the stuff. My exact load is:

Zero 124 FMJ

7.0 IMR 7625

OAL 1.190

WIN Small Pistol Primer

Brass- Anything I can find. I know for a fact that a lot of it has been loaded to major 6 or 7 times in my gun. I also loaded up some 115's with about 7.6 of 7625. I don't see anything wrong with the stuff and my primers look like it was factory fired ammo.

If your problem only happed one time in thousands of rounds, some other things that could have gone wrong would be: a little too much powder for some reason, bullet got set back on chambering, or the case had something in it like media or dirt that took away from the capacity and raised the pressure.

Just my $.0000002

[Jaxshooter]

A friend had the same problem and it turned out to be the same experience I had. It was the 7625 powder.

Edited July 7, 2006 by Jaxshooter

[Merlin Orr]

i burned a pound of 7625 in my 9mm, and about 3 pounds HS6, 4 pounds power pistol and a pound and a half of Silhouette(so far)

I really like the silhouette best. no pressure problems even at 180 PF and its easy to load.

Harmon, you're using range brass - right? How the comp work with the Silhouette powder?

I've been shooting 9 major wtih 7625 for the last two years with no problems at all. I think I've burned around 55 lbs of the stuff. My exact load is:

Zero 124 FMJ

7.0 IMR 7625

OAL 1.190

WIN Small Pistol Primer

Brass- Anything I can find. I know for a fact that a lot of it has been loaded to major 6 or 7 times in my gun. I also loaded up some 115's with about 7.6 of 7625. I don't see anything wrong with the stuff and my primers look like it was factory fired ammo.

If your problem only happed one time in thousands of rounds, some other things that could have gone wrong would be: a little too much powder for some reason, bullet got set back on chambering, or the case had something in it like media or dirt that took away from the capacity and raised the pressure.

Just my $.0000002

One failure in 70,000 + rounds... That is not bad A -tall....

[Harmon]

merlin, the silhouette powder works the comp pretty well, cleaner than HS6, shoots flatter than 7625..

really want to try 3n38 for the 9mm major..

but if it says anything when i get done with the 4 pounds of Silhouette, im gonna buy 8 pounds of HS6...that stuff is Da'bomb for 9mm major

[old shooter]

One thing seems clear. Everyone need to find out what works in their gun.

I have had 3 case problems with my bedell shorty. I have had 2 case separations at the cannelure and both times it was with nickel brass. The most stupid thing that I did was to not catch a .380 case making its way through my loader and into my gun. It blew out, but was surprisingly unspectacular. I have reloaded several practice rounds more than once (full power) and just look to see if anything outwardly unusual is going on. I also think that seating the primer (rl 650) gives a good feedback as to the case quality. If the primer goes in too easy, it is a reject. I am entering my 3rd year with a major 9, and think it is as workable as any other caliber. I use trueblue, mixed cases, .355 bullets @ 1.16 and winchester small rifle primers.

Mike