Nebraskan Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I have been spending a lot of time reading the rules in preparation for the Level 1 RO course in June. I need clarification on a rule. "8.7.3 When permitted, competitors taking a sight picture with an unloaded firearm prior to the start signal may only do so on a single target, to verify that their sights are prepared as required. Competitors who test a targeting sequence or a shooting position while taking a sight picture will incur on procedural penalty per occurence." It appears, while watching the few matches that I have been in, that this rule is broken frequently. I have seen competitors take a sight picture on each target in the first array, sometimes dropping the gun down to low ready and bring it up again to do it again. Others have dry fired at the first target, then sighted on each of the other targets in the first array. My question is two-fold. What constitutes "per occurence"? Each target after the first one? Each time they bring the gun up and go through the array? One for dry fire and one for each target or array? Second, do you tell the shooter about the penalty before they shoot or after their run? Is this rule loosely enforced? Mind you, I have only been to three local matches. Would you bust someone for this? I have never seen it called on anyone. Sorry for all of the questions on one simple rule, but it is the only thing that has really confused me in the rules vs. what I have seen in a match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Any time you see a US rule with the same rule number as the regular rule, that means the regular rule is replaced by the US rule...for USPSA. So...in this case...the rule doesn't exist for USPSA...only for IPSC. BTW, to answer your question...if there was a case for penalties, you wouldn't tell the shooter. The RO really should only be saying the actual range commands. Anything else leads to problems. (as in disrupting a shooters run). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingerjg Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 8.7.3 When permitted, competitors taking a sight picture with an unloaded firearm prior to the start signal must only do so on a single target, to verify that their sights are prepared as required. Competitors who test a targeting sequence or a shooting position while taking a sight picture will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. US8.7.3 Not applicable. In the US this rule does not aply. Good luck in the RO class. Just dont read into the rules to much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 This should be a US rule, it is just plain annoying when a competitor does that, and inconsiderate to the others who are waiting to shoot. If you don't know how to shoot the first array by now, all the sight pictures in the world are not going to help. I know it is part of the ritual for some to wind down and focus, but limiting it to one target gives the same effect. If every person takes an extra 30 seconds, then the stage takes 7 more minutes, and the match an extra hour. I really like it when the competitor takes several sight pictures, breathes in and out, dances around, puts their hand on their gun a few times, only to shoot 99th on that stage with penalties everywhere. I have shot with some of the supersquad, and they seem to come to the line ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebraskan Posted May 17, 2006 Author Share Posted May 17, 2006 US8.7.3 Not applicable. Whoops..Missed that. Thanks for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 This should be a US rule, it is just plain annoying when a competitor does that, and inconsiderate to the others who are waiting to shoot. If you don't know how to shoot the first array by now, all the sight pictures in the world are not going to help. I sort of agree with you in principle but there are some exceptions. I tend to not walk the course as much as other while planning my stage run. Most times thats not a problem. However if you shoot indoor matches, the lighting conditions are not always ideal and sometimes the start position or the various targets may have some shadows you don't expect. In those cases it REALLY pays to take a couple of sight pictures at targets with various lighting conditions. Some people tool around with their mags or whatnot. Thats no different then taking a couple of extra sight pictures. As long as you don't take to long, I don't care if you take 3 sight pictures or whatever you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 ---snip ---Some people tool around with their mags or whatnot. Thats no different then taking a couple of extra sight pictures. As long as you don't take to long, I don't care if you take 3 sight pictures or whatever you need. "Toolling around with there mags or whatnot" is a no-no! 8.7.4 Air gunning only! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 (edited) ---snip --- Some people tool around with their mags or whatnot. Thats no different then taking a couple of extra sight pictures. As long as you don't take to long, I don't care if you take 3 sight pictures or whatever you need. "Toolling around with there mags or whatnot" is a no-no! 8.7.4 Air gunning only! I meant checking and rechecking their mags, the mag holder tension, round count, barnie bullet, rechecking and all that jazz at LAMR time. I didn't mean aiming with them, I just used them as an example of "getting ready" when its your turn. Edited May 17, 2006 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Vlad, Misunderstood the use of "tooling around". Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unleashed Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 This should be a US rule, it is just plain annoying when a competitor does that, and inconsiderate to the others who are waiting to shoot. If you don't know how to shoot the first array by now, all the sight pictures in the world are not going to help. I know it is part of the ritual for some to wind down and focus, but limiting it to one target gives the same effect. If every person takes an extra 30 seconds, then the stage takes 7 more minutes, and the match an extra hour. I really like it when the competitor takes several sight pictures, breathes in and out, dances around, puts their hand on their gun a few times, only to shoot 99th on that stage with penalties everywhere. I have shot with some of the supersquad, and they seem to come to the line ready. Hmm...Can't say that I haven't seen a top shooter not do some or all of the rituals you are describing. I used to hold the same opinion until I realized that there is some preparation at the line that is necessary to run a course successfully. IMO, if you see someone doing all of the above and then finish 99th, they are probably just mimicking some of the pre-start rituals they have seen. Or maybe they just did something out of order !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 This should be a US rule, it is just plain annoying when a competitor does that, and inconsiderate to the others who are waiting to shoot. If you don't know how to shoot the first array by now, all the sight pictures in the world are not going to help. I know it is part of the ritual for some to wind down and focus, but limiting it to one target gives the same effect. If every person takes an extra 30 seconds, then the stage takes 7 more minutes, and the match an extra hour. I really like it when the competitor takes several sight pictures, breathes in and out, dances around, puts their hand on their gun a few times, only to shoot 99th on that stage with penalties everywhere. I have shot with some of the supersquad, and they seem to come to the line ready. I don't see the sight picture as being a problem since Open shooters use that time to check the dot, iron shight shooters should have the same opportunity. Perhaps the rule should limit the sight picture to 1 target. What I don't like is the shooter that cocks the gun & then does a draw & fire sight picture. I have ROed a couple of Area matches & the Race Gun Nationals and the sight picture is not the big time consumer. It is after the gun is loaded and back in the holster when the shooter starts to visualize where each & every target is, some times more than once. Several times I have gotten AYR on the tip of my tongue only to have the shooter start visualizing the targets with their hands again. How much do we want IPSC/USPSA to regulate freestyle? Should we put a refree with each squad and if a shooter takes too long put them on the clock as in golf? The stupider the rules the quicker people leave rather than deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAB33 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 With the new rule book, would the shooter be limited to one sight picture? 8.7 Sight Pictures and Range Inspection 8.7.1 A competitor is permitted to take a sight picture prior to the start signal. Such sight picture is only permitted from the “Make Ready” location Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brboyer Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 With the new rule book, would the shooter be limited to one sight picture?8.7 Sight Pictures and Range Inspection 8.7.1 A competitor is permitted to take a sight picture prior to the start signal. Such sight picture is only permitted from the “Make Ready” location I Don't think "a" = "one". If they intended the rule to limit shooter to a 'single' sight picture, they should have used "Single" or "One". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I haven't shot with a lot of GMs, but one I know takes a lot of time at the line. A full 3 minutes on a recent stage I watched. You know who you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootin-blanks Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 In IDPA, you are not able to take ANY sight pictures or 'air-gun', yet alone choreograph every move you are going to make... we have a local saying.. "Just DEAL with it". I shot my first USPSA match this weekend... just didn't really see the need to air gun every target...It was nice to be able to walk thru the stage a couple of times to 'get a plan'...It will be interesting, going cross-platform,, shooting USPSA and IDPA,, we'll see how many procedurals I get, at my next IDPA match... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce282 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 At the 2006 Carolina Cup an SO warned me about air-gunning the stage. I told him I was just counting the targets to make sure I had them all. He wasn't sure about that until he looked down and saw my gun on right hip, and I was using my left hand to count. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Loaded sight pictures are not prohibited by the rules. See above "not applicable." Drives me nuts as to the number of times I've heard ROs scold shooters by incorrectly telling them "You can't do that. Its in the rules." As for what we should not do? Sure, there is no need for a loaded sight picture. But worse than that, I also dislike those who take up everyone's time with multiple sight pictures/dry fire or other screwing around after LAMR. It is frankly: rude. Load and make ready quickly, please. It is all our time you are wasting up there. Regards, C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkin Chunker Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I also dislike those who take up everyone's time with multiple sight pictures/dry fire or other screwing around after LAMR. It is frankly: rude. Load and make ready quickly, please. It is all our time you are wasting up there. Regards, C. Oh, I don't know -- I used to be all impatient with people who had their rituals and stuff (zenning?). Then I realized that the amount of time a decent shooter took for a long ritual, then a fast shoot, probably went quicker than the time I take for a fast get-ready, followed by my slow shoot! In the end, I just figured that for my part, I should benefit by calming down and learning from a good run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 (edited) ---snip ---Some people tool around with their mags or whatnot. Thats no different then taking a couple of extra sight pictures. As long as you don't take to long, I don't care if you take 3 sight pictures or whatever you need. "Toolling around with there mags or whatnot" is a no-no! 8.7.4 Air gunning only! Not so Chuck... the rule is now 8.7.2 and you can use a mag if ya like... you just can't use a gun or replica. Edited March 5, 2008 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snertley Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I haven't shot with a lot of GMs, but one I know takes a lot of time at the line. A full 3 minutes on a recent stage I watched. You know who you are. Isnt that what the 5 minute walkthrough is for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 ---snip ---Some people tool around with their mags or whatnot. Thats no different then taking a couple of extra sight pictures. As long as you don't take to long, I don't care if you take 3 sight pictures or whatever you need. "Toolling around with there mags or whatnot" is a no-no! 8.7.4 Air gunning only! Not so Chuck... the rule is now 8.7.2 and you can use a mag if ya like... you just can't use a gun or replica. I was right in May 2006! It was good to see them loose "any part of a real firearm including any accessories thereof etc." At the 2006 A5 match I was doing a walk through while wiping sweat from my forehead with a bandana and the RO asked me if that was a "sighting aid"? I guess he could of called it. It is more reasonable now... Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 (edited) ---snip ---Some people tool around with their mags or whatnot. Thats no different then taking a couple of extra sight pictures. As long as you don't take to long, I don't care if you take 3 sight pictures or whatever you need. "Toolling around with there mags or whatnot" is a no-no! 8.7.4 Air gunning only! Not so Chuck... the rule is now 8.7.2 and you can use a mag if ya like... you just can't use a gun or replica. I was right in May 2006! It was good to see them loose "any part of a real firearm including any accessories thereof etc." At the 2006 A5 match I was doing a walk through while wiping sweat from my forehead with a bandana and the RO asked me if that was a "sighting aid"? I guess he could of called it. It is more reasonable now... Later, Chuck You were right Chuck Just a little dated like me. I've been through the rules front to back lately, so it was fresh in my mind. From waht I hear, it got out of control with replicas and even airsoft... to the point RO were wondering just what someone was using.. could it be real? You see some of those airsofts and you can't tell. The BOD over reacted a bit imo. The new rule makes sense. I learned with my finger gun, so I shall continue to go that way. Edited March 6, 2008 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I haven't shot with a lot of GMs, but one I know takes a lot of time at the line. A full 3 minutes on a recent stage I watched. You know who you are. Isnt that what the 5 minute walkthrough is for? I thought so... but he's a GM and I'm a B........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 ---snip ---Some people tool around with their mags or whatnot. Thats no different then taking a couple of extra sight pictures. As long as you don't take to long, I don't care if you take 3 sight pictures or whatever you need. "Toolling around with there mags or whatnot" is a no-no! 8.7.4 Air gunning only! Not so Chuck... the rule is now 8.7.2 and you can use a mag if ya like... you just can't use a gun or replica. I was right in May 2006! It was good to see them loose "any part of a real firearm including any accessories thereof etc." At the 2006 A5 match I was doing a walk through while wiping sweat from my forehead with a bandana and the RO asked me if that was a "sighting aid"? I guess he could of called it. It is more reasonable now... Later, Chuck You were right Chuck Just a little dated like me. I've been through the rules front to back lately, so it was fresh in my mind. From waht I hear, it got out of control with replicas and even airsoft... to the point RO were wondering just what someone was using.. could it be real? You see some of those airsofts and you can't tell. The BOD over reacted a bit imo. The new rule makes sense. I learned with my finger gun, so I shall continue to go that way. Don't blame the BOD for that one. I am pretty sure it had it's orgins in IPSC, not USPSA. The BOD just never wrote a "US" rule to override it. Until now, that is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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