What Is "hiding"?

[Vlad]

I think the single class is a cool idea, but some divisions are VERY different. I'm only a B class production shooter, but I'm sure I wouldn't even score 20% in revolver.

[MikeFoley]

I think the single class is a cool idea, but some divisions are VERY different. I'm only a B class production shooter, but I'm sure I wouldn't even score 20% in revolver.

If you decided to shoot revolver, then practiced and shot it in matches, you would soon be equally as skilled with it IMO. The revolver is different in operation only by reload and capacity, the draw, sights, and trigger are not different. You still have to do your part, and guns in general make little difference. Jerry M. is a classic example of this when he beats good Limited shooters with at wheelgun. Open has the dot, obviously, but the other 4 divisions are so close. I am classified as A in Limited at over 80%, and I am legitimately percentage classified as B in the other divisions. I don't shoot them very much. If I shot them for a few months, I really think I could be A with all of them. I have had A classifiers in them. When I shoot the other divisions I place with the A and M shooters. My lower classification is only because of my lack of classifiers, and I would feel a little bad if I went to a major and won my class against someone who shoots only that division and is accurately classified. Though I don't care what others do, it is their conscience, I understand the issue that some have with it. It is a reality, though one I don't care about. I care more about my % to the winners. That said, we have all lost prizes to sandbagging class jumpers, but such is life. Not many of us shoot for the prizes or accolades anyway.

[Jim Norman]

I wonder if USPSA ever went to one Classification for all 6 divisions what the participation in them would be? I think the term "hiding" brings to mind the Limited GM who can't come close to HOA, but is still classified as M in L10, so he shoots Limited at all the local matches and L10 at all the majors hoping to win High M in L10 (even though he is truly a GM). If you can be a GM in Limited, you can be a GM in Limited 10, and should be if you are going to play that game. Reloads are not forcing great shooters to hide in Limited, that I am certain of. If you earned GM, then you would be a GM in all the divisions, and everyone would shoot what they like. I think we need the classification system, and the different divisions, but not to be classified differently in them. Does anyone know why we are classified in all the different divisions? A better term than "hiding", may be "avoiding".

I am not opposed to one class fits all.

One change I would then make is how we count classifiers. Right now as an example, I am A in Limited and Limited-10, but by defauolt a B in Open, Revolver and Production. Only in Production is my percentage in class. I can shoot revolver for ever and maybe never get a new classifer counted. I need 65% to count. We should count any classifer that is abve the current average in the division we are shooting until we reach the point where we are at the less than 5% below class point.

Jim Norman

[shred]

Theres division-shopping in addition to classification-shopping. I think that's what Wakal is referring to-- Shooter A shows up and sees X, Y and Z are shooting Limited and bigger fish than he, and so switches to L10 where there aren't any bigger fish.

Which is a better finish? 5th Open or 1st Modified?

What if there were only 10 Modified shooters and 100 Open?

Wbo takes home the trophy? Who gets the Front Sight mention?

Which makes sponsors happier?

Lots of reasons it goes on...

[Ron Ankeny]

The revolver is different in operation only by reload and capacity, the draw, sights, and trigger are not different.

Gosh, and I thought the difference between my 1.5 lb trigger in my Open gun and my double action revolver was huge.

[Bruce]

Here is what I don't get about this topic of hiding in say, L10.

Suppose TGO shows up at a match planning to shoot limited. At the last minute he sees that I have signed up to shoot limited, and, fearing that he might get schooled by a guy who sucks with a pistol...he switches to L10 and kicks ass there. He then goes to the prize table and picks up a really super cool lamp for his office.

Does he not deserve the lamp, because he DID win L10?

I don't get it. The answer seems simple, as in most sports...just get better and win. MLB? You have to hit whomever pitches, whether you are new in the league or a 15 year vet. NFL? Anyone on the field while you are on the field can take a shot at you. Boxing? If your walking weight is light-heavy but you want to fight middle, lose weight and you can play there. UFC? Same thing.

Maybe I am naive...but it just seems that the answer is, if someone on a given day is better than you are in whatever division you are shooting, don't make excuses about him hiding (in the division you are also in ) but go home, practice, and come back and get him the next time. Man, THAT is the point to all things competition!

Just get better, it is impossible to sandbag the best.

[Kimberkid]

Hiding~ adj. Def.- " a ridiculous internet idea implying that if someone wins a division other than their regular division, they are not really a winner"

I find this whole concept retarded, in that, a know a ton of people that dont have a regular division. I will gladly switch at the drop of a hat between Open, Production, Limited or Revolver. I've happily shot Open with a minor, single stack Bianchi gun. Are people just like myself rotating divisions every match to "hide" or just to get to use all their guns?

It seems we have all forgotten the rules of good sportsmanship by flinging this nonsense around. This is a game. Play it, have fun, and enjoy, but remember that it is a game, nothing more. If you shoot Open, and feel someone is "hiding" in L-10, how is that hurting you? How is that hurting them? How is that hurting the game? If someone "hides" in L-10 and wins, couldnt we argue he is raising the level of play in L-10? and thus advancing that division? Sounds like a good thing to me.

I am a nobody who will never win anything, and there still isnt anyone on here so special that I am gonna hide from you. I am gonna shoot what I want, when I want, and enjoy it just the same.

Bottom line is, everyone not shooting Revo is just hiding.

[Jim Norman]

IF we were to adopt a one classification across the board, then there could be no hiding, unless of course you were really good at sandbagging so that you were generelly one class below your ability. Of course if you were to win a large LII or LIII match you could, and probably should get bumped up.

As to shooting various divisions, I regularly shoot Limited, L-10 and Production and occasionally shoot Open and rarely Revolver. Am I hiding when I shoot in Production, I am B there, but A limited. My percentages are truly B in Production and more tot he point only a very low C in Open. So am I hiding in Open? I say no,I have a few thousand dollars invested (?) in Open equipment, On occasion I like to shoot there. Truly my skillwith an Open Gun is probably only at a good C level. That said, I would not have a problem moving to a single classification for all divisions.

Jim

[Wakal]

Shred has the right of it (at least in the direction I was going )

Shooter A shows up and sees X, Y and Z are shooting Limited and bigger fish than he, and so switches to L10 where there aren't any bigger fish.

I don't think "hiding" is refering to folks that decided to go shoot a match in whatever Class and Division they want. I think "hiding" refers to people who show up on match day and then decide what Division to shoot based on who else is competing, in an attempt to evade people superior (actually or perceived) in skill.

The easist Division to do this is, of course, Limited and L10 since there is currently NO difference save the Clinton-Approved 10-round limit.

Alex

[Singlestack]

Hiding~ adj. Def.- " a ridiculous internet idea implying that if someone wins a division other than their regular division, they are not really a winner"

I find this whole concept retarded, in that, a know a ton of people that dont have a regular division. I will gladly switch at the drop of a hat between Open, Production, Limited or Revolver. I've happily shot Open with a minor, single stack Bianchi gun. Are people just like myself rotating divisions every match to "hide" or just to get to use all their guns?

It seems we have all forgotten the rules of good sportsmanship by flinging this nonsense around. This is a game. Play it, have fun, and enjoy, but remember that it is a game, nothing more. If you shoot Open, and feel someone is "hiding" in L-10, how is that hurting you? How is that hurting them? How is that hurting the game? If someone "hides" in L-10 and wins, couldnt we argue he is raising the level of play in L-10? and thus advancing that division? Sounds like a good thing to me.

I am a nobody who will never win anything, and there still isnt anyone on here so special that I am gonna hide from you. I am gonna shoot what I want, when I want, and enjoy it just the same.

Bottom line is, everyone not shooting Revo is just hiding.

Ditto!

When I look in my safe and decide witch pistol I wanna shoot I never consider who I will be shooting against 'cuz I really don't care.

[shred]

I would define 'hiding' as "Division switching to avoid competing against someone."

Could be hiding from getting beat by TGO, could be hiding to avoid getting beat by your kids.

Changing divsions for the fun of it, or even picking a division you think you can win instead of be an also ran in (division shopping) is different.

[Carmoney]

Bottom line is, everyone not shooting Revo is just hiding.

HA!! That's just what I was thinking!!

[Ron Ankeny]

I think "hiding" refers to people who show up on match day and then decide what Division to shoot based on who else is competing, in an attempt to evade people superior (actually or perceived) in skill.

That's my concept of the term. If such a shooter jumps out of my division why should I care? If he comes into my division and kicks my butt, he still shot better than me didn't he? Frankly, I don't see the mentality of hiding to be all that different than that of a shooter who is presently capable of moving up in class, but chooses to coast along well within their comfort level.

[Genghis]

I shoot what I happen to be shooting at the time. I'm going to get my *ss handed to me anyway at this point, so get in line.

Maybe I just haven't been doing this long enough, but when I win stuff it's usually no big deal. The only gun I won was an Airsoft (a nice one, though). The charge I get from moving up is much more important.

If I did choose divisions based on competition, I think I'd rather shoot with the big boys. As an unclassified Open shooter (also C Limited), I feel pretty d*mn good about shooting 71% against 2 M's and another local tough in our section match. I like picking off the occasional C or B shooter. And I felt pretty good when I shot a decent percentage of what Travis shot at DT.

Would they call that "Suicide by GM"?

[boo radley]

I shoot what I happen to be shooting at the time. I'm going to get my *ss handed to me anyway at this point, so get in line.

Yup.

I haven't shot a match yet, in which there weren't GM's or M's in any division happy to hand out the a*ss-kicking we so greatly deserve.

Odd, that I can't really tell the difference between a whuppin' from a cowardly rascal who's hiding, or a shooter that challenges his Rightful Division without fear.

I think you have to be....THIS tall, before you get to worry about hiding.

[Merlin Orr]

Odd, that I can't really tell the difference between a whuppin' from a cowardly rascal who's hiding, or a shooter that challenges his Rightful Division without fear.

I think you have to be....THIS tall, before you get to worry about hiding.

I love it....

[Lycanthrope]

I'm not sure I have an opinion of the classification system or not as I just shoot for fun and I like having goals that don't have pressure associated with whether I can make this month's rent......basically, I never expect to shoot to pay the bills or even pay for the ammo I burn. Sure..I can shoot an area match or the Nationals with some of the best, but that's just a privilege. How many other sports offer the actual chance to compete with the best in the nation?!!! Last time I played backyard football, I never took a hit from Troy Polamalu. Thank God. Maybe, I'd have quit after that!

So...we have sandlot players playing with pros. Drastically differing reasons for playing I'd wager and I can't fault any for playing the "game". Any game has it's exploits. Gaming a stage is ok, but gaming the system is not? Can you blame the shooter for exploiting a game where exploiting is indirectly encouraged? I don't see much difference as pride is a personal thing anyhow. We all know if we earned it....or not. In my profession, I have an opinion that the ethics of a culture are only as good as the base average ethics of the average Joe.......and average Joe practices some pretty vague situational ethics! Change the system and all you do is change the exploits (save for the highest levels).

Have a totally heads up "competition" with no classes (there is no such thing.....considering the variables of guns, stages and physical condition of the shooters) and you can discourage weak ego, newbie shooters from ever coming back (the future of the sport?).

For "fair" how about a "GM Nationals" with big prizes down a quick curve of lesser prizes for the "M Nationals"....."A Nationals".....ad so forth. Reward improvement while lessening the actual playing field. Logistically,however, I don't think our sport is big enough to support that.

Here's a side note from a reframed perspective. I get called for "sandbagging" some as a lowly B class shooter. It kind of irritates me. I shot 65% at the last area match and realistically, that's accurate. In about the past year I've only shot one classifier over 59% (n=14). Yet....I often place above many, or all, A class shooters in local matches. Why? Because I strategize well and play to my strengths on the very common free style field courses. Classifiers are usually standards around here and not very flexible. I'm forced out of my comfort zone and/or feel pressure to perform higher due to usual match performance which increases my tension....which cause a very unsavory crash and burn at times. So....perhaps for every shooter that "hides" in a class, there are guys like me who are there to even the playing field....

Sorry for any poor grammar or unclear thoughts. It was a bit late when I stumbled across this.

[Genghis]

So...we have sandlot players playing with pros.

You hit the nail on the head! I shot with Matt Burkett on my squad at Space City, and he made a point of volunteering a pointer. No where else!

[raz-0]

Odd, that I can't really tell the difference between a whuppin' from a cowardly rascal who's hiding, or a shooter that challenges his Rightful Division without fear.

I think you have to be....THIS tall, before you get to worry about hiding.

This is a great quote.

I think all the bitching about hiding is pointless. The only "fix" to it is to have everything heads up. This will discourage a lot of people from even bothering as unless you area GM in open, there isn't much point to you showing up. Every sport on the planet makes concessions to not frustrate teh competitive spirit. Since we aren't the kind of thing to have minor leagues, bar leagues, little leagues, etc.. Class systems are about the only choice.

If hiding is so detrimental, go to your matches and pay attention to the ammount of work done by high A, M, and GM shooters and people who have money to burn. Ask yourself how long it would exist with just those people doing the work.

As for dropping the 10 round restriction, you are going to slam the door in the face of a LOT of people who didn't ask you what they should buy before deciding shooting was really fun. Telling them to go scratch is a great plan.

As for PC-ness, and making some political statement via divisions. I might see how the turtle target is trying to make a group of people feel better who won't feel better no matter what, and how you can find it pointless. However, the capacity limits aren't there to make gungrabbers feel better. They are there so your FELLOW SHOOTERS can participate despite idiotic legislation.

Perhaps that "screw 'em, it's their problem" attitude is a large part of the reason why we have these idiotic laws in the first place. (it certainly seems to be increadibly common amongs the shooting community as a whole, just ask a clays shooter what they think of your sport, and how far they'll go out of their way to protect it).

[MikeFoley]

Well, I think maybe I can shed some perspective on this issue from a recent experience. Let me start by saying that I was very pleased with a recent major match performance where I was the 2nd A Limited shooter and I am by no means whining or accusing anyone of anything. I am merely indicating what happens when our class system fails to a certain extent. I was also pleased that at 17th, I was only preceeded by 9 GM, 6 M, and one other A.

In reviewing the results, I entered the 1st A shooters number into the classification system to find that he was an Open Master and hadn't shot a Limited classifier in 14 months. I don't know this fellow, nor do I think he is hiding from anyone. I do feel like if he is capable of M at 89% in Open, then he is capable of it in Limited too. I also feel like if he had recently shot Limited, he would be a M. He beat me and deserves his finish 6 places above me no doubt.

The question is, has the system failed to properly classify him, and caused me to once again miss a first in class finish and a contingency award from a gun manufacturer? I don't care about that so much, as it has happened to me before, but I truly think if we adopt an accross-the-divisions single classification, this will not happen as often.

Once again, I am not calling anyone a sandbagger or anything else, this is just some statistics that caught my eye as I contemplated a single classification. Congratulations to all of those who finished high, it took a lot of work and determination I am sure.

[Bigbadaboom]

When an "A" class shooter scores almost 83% below 9 "GM's" of the caliber that shot that match and not only takes first A but takes 2nd "M" in a field of 13 "M" class shooters I would need to hear some pretty smooth dialog to convince me that some sandbagging/hiding isn't going on. Especially when their last "Open" classifier was shot on 2/10/06 and their last "Limited" classifier was shot on 6/10/05.

There's you a good example of "Hiding".

Yes, I agree that if I'm beat I'm beat no matter who they are but as long as we have the system that we have ruling the stucture and that system dictates prizes and awards given then sandbagging is a cheesy, chicken-st** way to play and should be called out every time it's witnessed untill it stops or the rules change.

The 2nd place "A" shooter shot a 74.95% and that's right where a top "A" going into "M" should place given the great GM's involved in the match.

[driver8M3]

When an "A" class shooter scores almost 83% below 9 "GM's" of the caliber that shot that match and not only takes first A but takes 2nd "M" in a field of 13 "M" class shooters I would need to hear some pretty smooth dialog to convince me that some sandbagging/hiding isn't going on. Especially when their last "Open" classifier was shot on 2/10/06 and their last "Limited" classifier was shot on 6/10/05.

you realize that 83% is an "A" class score right? and you're claiming this person was sandbagging/hiding by moving himself into a division with 9 GMs and 13 Ms...that seems like the opposite of hiding!

there are plenty of reasons, which have nothing to do with sandbagging or hiding, why people switch divisions. maybe his open gun broke. maybe he ran out of open ammo. maybe his friend/wife/kid was shooting limited. maybe he just got a new limited gun. maybe he shot last year in open as a means to improve in limited. maybe he just felt like shooting iron sights. maybe he's going to the limited nationals this year and wants some practice.

[MikeFoley]

I had thought of all those reasons, that is why I was careful to say the shooter did nothing wrong, the classification system failed him by not already having him shoot as a Master in this division.

Edited to add:

A year is a long time to go with no classifier, even if this may have been one of the first majors of the year, this is a problem in that no recent classifiers have to be on file. I am a lot better than I was a year ago with all of my guns, I could have switched divisions and done the same thing and shot as a B.

Once again, no finger pointing here, just a real example of how easy it is to shoot underclassed.

Edited May 10, 2006 by fomeister

[ipscbob]

What Is "hiding"?

Just another excuse used by some whose egos are greater than their abilites.

[boo radley]

I would need to hear some pretty smooth dialog to convince me that some sandbagging/hiding isn't going on.

you realize that 83% is an "A" class score right? and you're claiming this person was sandbagging/hiding by moving himself into a division with 9 GMs and 13 Ms...that seems like the opposite of hiding!

there are plenty of reasons, which have nothing to do with sandbagging or hiding, why people switch divisions. maybe his open gun broke. maybe he ran out of open ammo. maybe his friend/wife/kid was shooting limited. maybe he just got a new limited gun. maybe he shot last year in open as a means to improve in limited. maybe he just felt like shooting iron sights. maybe he's going to the limited nationals this year and wants some practice.

+1

The top A shooter in A6 LTD was on the BEForum squad at the Florida Open; a super nice person, and extremely good shooter.

From the results, looks like the top B LTD shooter ALSO trounced a bunch of folks -- how is that materially different? Hell, Mike -- *you* beat the majority of the 'M' shooters!