Gun On X

[rtr]

Got to watch an RO and shooter squabble over this one at a match this weekend.

Stage description says that at start "loaded gun is placed on X" which is a taped X on a table. Competitor propped his gun on a magazine with some portion of the gun touching the X. Shooter claimed since it's touching the X it's legit, RO said the whole gun had to lay on the X and couldn't be propped. Stage description said nothing about propping.

So two questions, was the method used (propped with gun touching part of X) legit?

Second what is defined as "on the X". Any part of the gun touching the X counts, or the gun has to be in the middle of the X or what?

[Loves2Shoot]

The stage designer just needs to add the no propping clause on any "gun is lying..." stage to avoid conflict and centered on the X if that's what they mean. There just too many people trying to get a perceived advantage.

[bayoupirate]

Looking for Rule to back up the stament but my experience has been that RO's require the Trigger Guard of the Gun to be on the X and Nothing is allowed to prop up the gun and you are not allowed to stand the gun up on the Mag base either.

Okay someone give me a rule #

[eerw]

That was an interesting squabble..

especially liked the part where the RO said " put your gun flat on the table or get out of the box."

The match directer was in the squad too...so it was answered pretty quickly what he was going to allow...

I thought on the X was satisfied by the gun touching the X..and I guess the arguement is that if it does not say "Do not prop the gun" in the stage description" as some say..then it would be OK to do if you choose.

but mainly my thought was don't get dependent on propping your gun for a start..learn to draw from it being in a flat postition..

[BritinUSA]

They should do away with the 'X' and replace it with an outline of a box done in tape. Gun must be completely in the box, neat and simple. I think the un-propped thing should be the default for these positions.

Propping the gun is just so, well it's almost, dare I say it , kind of... bubblegum'ish.

<running for the hills>

[Jim Norman]

On X means On the X. If it don't say No propping then you can prop, BUT. remember that that agazine is no longer available, as all magzines are, I believe to be carried on the shooters person, so IF you use a mag you'll need to prop, you either need to take the time to pick it up as well and place it in a proper ciarrier, or leave it behind.

As to standing hte gun up, it is fine with me, It may not fly in other places where other peopl ehave different ideas about what freestyle means and when it starts. But so far as I klnow, in USPSA, so long as the gun is touching the X, unless otherwise stated in the WRITTEN STAGE BRIEF, you are good to go.

Jim Norman

[rtr]

But so far as I klnow, in USPSA, so long as the gun is touching the X, unless otherwise stated in the WRITTEN STAGE BRIEF, you are good to go.

Does that mean "so long as any portion, no matter how small, of the gun is touching any portion of the X" then you're good to go?

[eerw]

Propping the gun is just so, well it's almost, dare I say it , kind of... bubblegum'ish.

<running for the hills>

did you happen to shoot on Ron and Ara squad??

Edited April 3, 2006 by eerw

[Ron Ankeny]

I assume this was just a local match? RO and shooter are not on the same page so the MD makes the call. That should pretty much settle the issue. If the competitor doesn't like it, he/she can get out of the box.

Just curious, was the squabble just good natured ribbing or was it a for real blow up? I can't imagine anyone at a club level match not complying with the RO over something that trivial.

BTW, what was the decision?

[BSeevers]

When you write course description State Gun lying on its side, not artifically propped, trigger guard centered on X, muzzle pointed at mark or downrange.

Man I hate Range Lawyers

[rtr]

I assume this was just a local match? RO and shooter are not on the same page so the MD makes the call. That should pretty much settle the issue. If the competitor doesn't like it, he/she can get out of the box.

Just curious, was the squabble just good natured ribbing or was it a for real blow up? I can't imagine anyone at a club level match not complying with the RO over something that trivial.

BTW, what was the decision?

This was a local match, although it was a local match that's a part of a qualifier series to get a nationals slot, but the shooter in question has not asked to try and qualify for one of those slots.

I don't know either of these shooters, or shoot with them often, it certainly did not appear good natured.

Since the MD who was on the squad interjected the decision was that he could prop as long as part of his gun touched the X.

[chuckw]

Propping the gun is just so, well it's almost, dare I say it , kind of... bubblegum'ish.

+1. That sums it up for me. Guess what would happen if it said "gun flat on table" and the RO told you to remove your long slide racker or brake pedal otherwise your gun was not "flat". If you're a good sportsman you'll focus on winning a stage by being a better shooter not on being a pain in the a$$.

[Crusher]

Stage designers need to be careful how they word their "procedures" because there are sometimes other stage designers who shoot too. Experienced stage designers can pick apart stages and find loopoles that the less experienced would never think of.

Stage description says that at start "loaded gun is placed on X" which is a taped X on a table.

If thats all it said, I too may have propped the gun to faclitate the presentation and it would have been fine under the rules. Can't blame the competitor for a poorly worded "at start" description.

My favorite is gun starts are the ones that just say "unloaded" with no other criteria. You should see the RO's get hot when you place the "unloaded" gun standing upright on a huge heavy magwell with the slide locked back just waiting to suck up it's first magazine and they never expected that.

[SteveZ]

On X means On the X. If it don't say No propping then you can prop, BUT. remember that that agazine is no longer available, as all magzines are, I believe to be carried on the shooters person, so IF you use a mag you'll need to prop, you either need to take the time to pick it up as well and place it in a proper ciarrier, or leave it behind.

As to standing hte gun up, it is fine with me, It may not fly in other places where other peopl ehave different ideas about what freestyle means and when it starts. But so far as I klnow, in USPSA, so long as the gun is touching the X, unless otherwise stated in the WRITTEN STAGE BRIEF, you are good to go.

Jim Norman

I had a long discussion with John A about BOTH of these issues. According to JA, the stage procedure MUST state that either the gun has to be laying flat..or you can't prop it up,etc. It it doesn't...you can. Furthermore regarding magazines...according to John, unless the WSB prevents it, you can place your magazines anywhere you want and use them. As an example...if you wanted, you could place them at strategically located places along the COF for reloads...I don't know why anyone would want to do this...but you could....unless the WSB stated "all reloading devices must start on the shooters person".

[Ron Ankeny]

I don't know either of these shooters, or shoot with them often, it certainly did not appear good natured.

That's a shame.

[eerw]

Just curious, was the squabble just good natured ribbing or was it a for real blow up? I can't imagine anyone at a club level match not complying with the RO over something that trivial.

That's a shame.

just clash of personalities....settled quickly...

Edited April 3, 2006 by eerw

[Paul B]

As far as I know there is no general rule about propping and none about setting the gun up if it is stable that way.

If you don't want proping or standing up of the gun just say so in the "starting position." Adding "gun flat on table and No propping" is pretty easy.

For those who say this is a gamers approach, take a look at the guns with the slide rackers in open and the LTD guns with big paddle safeties and big magwells. These things prevent the mag release/mag drop some love to see from these starts just as much as propping.

It's interesting to watch the different levels of structure practiced by different RO's. I designed a stage with a table start and was silent about propping on purpose, but about half the RO's would not allow it (RO's travelled with the squad) and half didn't care. When the ones that wouldn't allow it found out that others were doing it they were very, very unhappy and we made a ruling that no one could prop before it got out of hand. Next month I designed a similar stage and specifically stated that propping was allowed. No problems ensued and the same people were at the top of the stage results.

From my standpoint, let the competitor do what they are comfortable with at this kind of start. It is a game.

[chuckw]

Furthermore regarding magazines...according to John, unless the WSB prevents it, you can place your magazines anywhere you want and use them. As an example...if you wanted, you could place them at strategically located places along the COF for reloads...I don't know why anyone would want to do this...but you could....unless the WSB stated "all reloading devices must start on the shooters person".

He actually made that ruling???? Holy Cow -that's gonna open a whole new can of worms! If I can place personal equipment like mags at strategic places in the COF, then I can place my own nice soft shooting mat at low ports, and maybe my drink cooler in front of a barricade to give me extra height. This ruling is gonna change the game, fer sure, fer sure!

[SteveZ]

He actually made that ruling????

I don't know if I would call it a ruling .... but more of an interpretation/reading of the rule book. This entire discussion stemmed from the lack of a definition in the rule book regarding where ammo reloading devices had to be at the start signal. I keep all my correspondance with John...here's how the last email played out.

JA: Usually, the ammo on table is in an empty gun start, but does not have to be.

SZ: Yeah, I've shot stages like that. So if I'm reading your response correct, I can "stage" a magazine somewhere on a stage, and use that magazine during the course of fire, even if the course description does not otherwise specify where my mags have to be?

JA: I would recommend that you ask prior to doing it, the RO may or may not allow you this privilege, he has a responsibility to give everyone the same opportunity, and if others have gone through and not done this, then it is a good possibility that it would not be allowed as it would change the stage.

I talked with one of our more experienced and highly respected RM's about this last statement made by John as John implies that you should ask the RO for permission. I don't believe you have to ask the RO for permission for something that isn't prohibited in the rule book or stage briefing. The RO's aren't allowed to selectively start enforcing what they believe is intent (in my opinion). The RM (who shall rename nameless...unless he wants to identify himself) responded to that as follows:

RM: The answer is, yes - the RO could prohibit a shooter from doing this, AS LONG AS IT'S APPLIED CONSISTENTLY TO EVERY SHOOTER. Even if you HAVE dedicated CRO's - they get tired - and, if it's been omitted in the walkie, you're right back to where you started. This is the sort of thing that gets stages tossed... I'm a proponent of leaving very little leeway for the RO's to "clarify" or "interpret" the rules, especially - again - in light of the increasing preponderance of "roving" RO's. So, short version... close the loophole in the upcoming rewrite.

Edited April 3, 2006 by SteveZ

[Crusher]

then I can place my own nice soft shooting mat at low ports, and maybe my drink cooler in front of a barricade to give me extra height. This ruling is gonna change the game, fer sure, fer sure!

Don't think so, I belive that is considered "re-arranging" the course of fire. In the old days a few used to "notch" marks on barricades where they wanted the gun be presented when they came into a position and that was a no-no too. I used to see mounds of brass on the ground stratigically placed (unless the gun stacke the empties upon ejection of fired cases), divits in the ground where cleats spun around in a small circles, all kinds of lil tricks. All a no-no now.

As the rulebook was explained a long time ago"if it doesn't say you can't, then you can, if you don't want them to, tell them they can't" and use the "WSB" to inform everyone. Leave too much out and your COF may be bastardized beyond your wildest imagination.

[Brazos Custom]

How about line 10 from the appendix - Maximum distance of handgun and mags from torso - 50mm. Also 5.5.3 seems to imply that the magazines are being carried - it says if you drop one you can pick it up not that you can pick up one that has not been dropped.

[GeorgeInNePa]

How about line 10 from the appendix - Maximum distance of handgun and mags from torso - 50mm. Also 5.5.3 seems to imply that the magazines are being carried - it says if you drop one you can pick it up not that you can pick up one that has not been dropped.

If you were to take that literally and use it to make the pre-placement of mags against the rules, it would also make putting the mags on the table for an unloaded gun-start against the rules.

If they are on the table, they are probably more than 50mm away from your body.

[chuckw]

If you were to take that literally and use it to make the pre-placement of mags against the rules, it would also make putting the mags on the table for an unloaded gun-start against the rules. If they are on the table, they are probably more than 50mm away from your body.

Now THAT makes a lot of sense. There's also a rule (which I can't find right now) saying that you can't adjust your gear unless the RO orders it or unless the briefing says you can, so I guess this means silence is not assent!

[wide45]

Maximum distance of handgun and mags from torso - 50mm

If it prohibits starting with mags on table, then it also prohibits starting with gun on table.

It is a rule for gear, not stages. Start position, and stage procedure can require changes.

As RO, I would not allow the competitor to add anything not present for the first squad, or allowed in writing.

[ChuckS]

How about line 10 from the appendix - Maximum distance of handgun and mags from torso - 50mm. Also 5.5.3 seems to imply that the magazines are being carried - it says if you drop one you can pick it up not that you can pick up one that has not been dropped.

If you were to take that literally and use it to make the pre-placement of mags against the rules, it would also make putting the mags on the table for an unloaded gun-start against the rules.

If they are on the table, they are probably more than 50mm away from your body.

and if you were to take that rule literally, which does not give any indication on when the mag and gun have to be 50mm from the torso, a shooter is moved to open class when the shooter draws the handgun!