Gun On X

[BritinUSA]

did you happen to shoot on Ron and Ara squad??

No, I was squad one so I missed all this excitement....

[Jim Norman]

The following rule is where I made my earlier misstatement regarding the requirement to carry magazines. I thought should was in reality "Must"

5.2.4 Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices should

be carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose,

to reduce the risk of loss during a course of fire.

THis said, the other part of my comment still stands, If any part of the gun is on the X, then the gun is on the X. If you want the trigger guard to be centered on the X, then you must state it in the WSB.

Jim

[BritinUSA]

did you happen to shoot on Ron and Ara squad??

No, I was on squad one, so I missed all the excitement.

[shred]

5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt

carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at

waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either permanently

fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three

belt loops.

[...]

5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless

required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and

allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor

during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a

holster, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the

“Standby” command (see Rule 8.3.3).

According to the rules gurus over in IPSC-land, magazines and speedloaders fall under 'all allied equipment', and therefore can't be pre-placed off-body unless the stage or RO requires it.

[SteveZ]

5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt

carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at

waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either permanently

fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three

belt loops.

[...]

5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless

required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and

allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor

during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a

holster, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the

“Standby” command (see Rule 8.3.3).

According to the rules gurus over in IPSC-land, magazines and speedloaders fall under 'all allied equipment', and therefore can't be pre-placed off-body unless the stage or RO requires it.

....and I've heard it interpreted many times that 5.2.3 deals with the belt and where its placed....not the presense of the magazines or gun on the belt...futhermore IF it was true...then it would be in direct conflict with 5.2.4 which states "should"....and as we all know.....its perfectly legal to use magazines drawn from your pockets.

If you want to write and tell John...he's all wet...go right ahead!

BTW, I brought this entire discussion (about magazines and there placement at the start signal) up to Bruce Gary sometime back when he was working on the revision to the rule book....Bruce said he'd address it and close the loophole.

Edited April 4, 2006 by SteveZ

[shred]

....and I've heard it interpreted many times that 5.2.3 deals with the belt and where its placed....not the presense of the magazines or gun on the belt...futhermore IF it was true...then it would be in direct conflict with 5.2.4 which states "should"....and as we all know.....its perfectly legal to use magazines drawn from your pockets.

If you want to write and tell John...he's all wet...go right ahead!

BTW, I brought this entire discussion (about magazines and there placement at the start signal) up to Bruce Gary sometime back when he was working on the revision to the rule book....Bruce said he'd address it and close the loophole.

Sorry, I forgot Appendix D9

20. Neither the handgun, nor any of its attachments, nor any allied equipment (e.g. magazines or other loading devices),

I think it's pretty clear what the rules meant, what USPSA interpreted it to mean may differ, especially as regards magazines and pockets.

[Crusher]

Shred the "

the belt

carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at

waist level.

refers to support gear, belt(s) holster,mag pouches speed loader carriers. it is seperate from

:...the handgun, nor any of its attachments, nor any allied equipment (e.g. magazines or other loading devices),

"allied equipment" refers to components of the primary, Belt and Handgun so we have 2 sets of "allied equipment".

I can think of no reason to "stash" your spare mags/moon clips/speed loaders anywhere other than your belt unless the WSD mandates some other location.

[GeorgeInNePa]

5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt

carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at

waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either permanently

fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three

belt loops.

[...]

5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless

required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and

allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor

during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a

holster, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the

“Standby” command (see Rule 8.3.3).

According to the rules gurus over in IPSC-land, magazines and speedloaders fall under 'all allied equipment', and therefore can't be pre-placed off-body unless the stage or RO requires it.

I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm shooting an IPSC match. Now, how about USPSA?

[shred]

USPSA rules: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ndpost&p=393646

[GeorgeInNePa]

.................

Edited April 4, 2006 by GeorgeInNePa

[RIIID]

This all reminds me of a club match that had a facing up range start. I thought I needed all the edge I could get. I had my right foot turned out at about 90 degrees and my head about the same. As the RO was about to say "Are you ready" a voice from the squad said "learn how to do it right and you won't have to mess around". From that point on I started to learn and things went great.

Thanks Brian.

Rich

[johnhurd]

If it don't say No propping then you can prop

But in the case of stacking you have to have permission in the WSB,

9.4.5.3

"Stacked shots (i.e. firing the correct number of rounds in a

string, but shooting at fewer targets than specified in the

string), will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence.

This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing

specifically authorizes stacked shots."

so then it would follow that you must have permission to prop right???? But I like the taped box idea makes sense and is easy on the RO. I am glad I am old by the time no one can make sense of the rules I will be gone.

Freestyle ??? We don't need no steenkin Freestyle

[Bigbadaboom]

I had a wise-guy once who tride to game a "gun lying on X" start stage. He put the gun where the comp was barely touching a little spot of the X so that the grip was hanging half way off the table to give him (A new C-class open shooter) that winning, secret edge that no one else had thought of After all of his figiting around and getting perfectly set I said "The start procedure states gun lying on X. The comp is not the gun, the frame is. Please fix it." After he blew the stage with about 3 penelties he began blaiming me for "Mind Screwing" him. Another Veteran M-class shooter went up to him and said "If you had started like everyone else and hadn't tride to pull that gun half off the table crap in the first place you wouldn't be bitchin right now. Besides that, he probably saved you from dropping the gun on the start."

We all learn in different ways. Some harder than others.

[Flexmoney]

- If you (stage designer) want the trigger guard centered on the X then say so in the written walk-thru.

- Unless the written stage briefing says otherwise, you can balance the gun on it's muzzle for all I care. Unless it becomes unsafe (which earns you a DQ) you are fine. If it is unsafe to start with, then the written stage briefing needs re-worded...reshoots issued as needed.

- The shooter can't modify the stage (adding/moving "props" is modifying the stage).

Edited April 4, 2006 by Flexmoney

[bayoupirate]

Just want to say thanks to eveyone for their input.

I have revisited many of my stage designs and re-written the Course descriptions and starting position descriptions.

I promise that if you shoot a course I design, they'll be plenty to game about the stage, but NO room for Interpretation about what's allowed on the starting position.

Thanks Again

[Jim Norman]

Just want to say thanks to eveyone for their input.

I have revisited many of my stage designs and re-written the Course descriptions and starting position descriptions.

I promise that if you shoot a course I design, they'll be plenty to game about the stage, but NO room for Interpretation about what's allowed on the starting position.

Thanks Again

WHY?

I think one of the greatest things to do in a stage is simply state "Standing in the Free fire zone" for a start position. Whatch people try all sorts of odd places to start. genereally there will be one "Best" place, but people will try all sorts of odd things. That is truly freestyle.

As a slightly lesser challenge, just state start standing at rear fault line of ffx and deliniate it on the WSB and diagram. Again, there is ample room to game, but it adds tothe challenge

My opinion of course

Jim

[boo radley]

WHY?

I think one of the greatest things to do in a stage is simply state "Standing in the Free fire zone" for a start position. Whatch people try all sorts of odd places to start. genereally there will be one "Best" place, but people will try all sorts of odd things. That is truly freestyle.

My opinion of course

Jim

That is awesome. I don't think I've shot anything complex with such an ambiguous starting position, yet....I imagine -- a big match, tricky field course....people would go *crazy* during the allotted 5 minutes.

[Flexmoney]

We keep the starts vague at times...on purpose.

[bayoupirate]

Jim I totally agree with allowing as much freestyle as possible.

I meant if I had a specific intention for every shooter to adhere to it would be there.

I like using opposite end or choices in starting position options that give RH & LH shooters, but if gun, hands, back, elbow or fingers, cards, or anything else is a part of the deal every shooter must deal with, I'm putting in there word for word like I want it.

Example. Last year at our Gator Classic match. I designed the stage to begin with the shooter holding a paddle in both hands (like you would hold it to paddle a boat). The Written Course Description stated "holding paddle in both hands. That left it open for shooters to hold it on the wrong end, just only their index fingers to hold it up, just hold it up by pinching it between two fingers (like a finger sandwich), and other variations.

Next time I will be more specific in the WCD.

[Bigbadaboom]

We keep the starts vague at times...on purpose.

Vague..................I like......................vague.

[Jim Norman]

Jim I totally agree with allowing as much freestyle as possible.

I meant if I had a specific intention for every shooter to adhere to it would be there.

I like using opposite end or choices in starting position options that give RH & LH shooters, but if gun, hands, back, elbow or fingers, cards, or anything else is a part of the deal every shooter must deal with, I'm putting in there word for word like I want it.

Example. Last year at our Gator Classic match. I designed the stage to begin with the shooter holding a paddle in both hands (like you would hold it to paddle a boat). The Written Course Description stated "holding paddle in both hands. That left it open for shooters to hold it on the wrong end, just only their index fingers to hold it up, just hold it up by pinching it between two fingers (like a finger sandwich), and other variations.

Next time I will be more specific in the WCD.

OK, We are actually on the same page here. We try to do just as you said. If we want you to hold the paddle as if paddling a coanoe, we will make that plain as day, if all we want is for yo uto hold it, then we'll just say holding the paddle. It really bothers me when people, for no other reason than a power trip takeit upon themselves to determine what the mandated start position is even though the designer lft it open.

Jim

[BritinUSA]

Next time I will be more specific in the WCD.

Not sure if this would work: How about taking a photo of the required start position and stick it to the course description. That way there is no mistaking the position you want them to be in. The RO can look at the picture and the shooter and easily determine if they are 'good to go'.

A picture paints a thousand words.

"Start Position: As indicated in picture"

[AikiDale]

How about "Start with empty gun lying flat on table, muzzle pointed down range, slide closed on official NRA yellow plastic safe gun indicator thingy."

[bayoupirate]

Like the picture idea.

If there is some mandatory standard for starting position on a stage I am ROing.

I usually demonstrate during walk-thru and ask if there are any questions.

But I like the Photo idea.

Hey Aiki. What about "Gun lying in Glove box muzzle pointing down range, Shooter seated in driver's seat with both hands grasping the steering wheel at the 10 & 2 positions (Marked with paint on wheel), seatbelt fastened. Upon signal, proceed to trunk, use key to unlock trunk, remove magazine, Retrieve gun, load gun and engage targets as they become visible from within fault lines.

[sfinney]

Instead of "X" say "Dot".

Gun flat on table (no propping), trigger guard centered over Dot on table.