Classifier Question

[Jim Taylor]

Need the group's input on this one.

While shooting Stage 3 (Strings 2 and 3) of the Classifier, a shooter did not take a knee to shoot around the barrel. The shooter is not physically impaired. What's the ruling?

Thanks,

Jim

[Jason Beaver]

1 procedural for not following the course of fire.

[Ted Murphy]

Don't forget there are reshoots permitted on the classifier for gun or mental malfunctions.

I would have him reshoot stage 3. Otherwise, the 3 second procedural (which is what he would earn for not doing that) could possibly inadvertantly cause the shooter to sandbag if that gets him a lower classification.

Ted

[Jim Taylor]

Don't forget there are reshoots permitted on the classifier for gun or mental malfunctions.

I would have him reshoot stage 3. Otherwise, the 3 second procedural (which is what he would earn for not doing that) could possibly inadvertantly cause the shooter to sandbag if that gets him a lower classification.

Ted

Ted: Note that the shooter did this intentionally on both strings 2 and 3. I thought a 3 second procedural for not observing the COF and another for not using cover in each occurence was appropriate. I think this was an incident of sandbagging.

[Chills1994]

All the more reason to have a classifier stage or stage(s) in a match, like IPSC

You intentionally sandbag the classifier stage, you risk not walking away from the match with a trophy.

Which leads me to my next idea.....and next thread.

[tightloop]

Well Chills1994

If it leads you to a new thread, it led me to revive an old idea...

Classes and classifiers can only lead to sandbagging and possible rule infractions, so why have them? Let everyone shoot heads up against each other...

Isn't the idea to find out who is the Top Gun on that particular day? I think so...Not to find out who is the C class champ thru a convoluted series of exercises have Placed a shooter in C class...No one wants to be the second or third banana, everyone wants to be the Winner, the Top Banana....How many Presidents can you name....4, 5, maybe 6...OK but how many of those 6 can you name the Vice President? Not many I would guess...

The whole point is that classes and divisions dilute the true competition of the moment...They don;t have classes in Olympic competition, or Pro competition, or NASCAR...Nope, everyone goes for the gold.

I will admit that heads up competition isn't for everyone, and only the strong survive, but that is what made America great...not this watered down something for everybody attitude...If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch..., and one more dog analogy...If you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes...

So there you have it..my .02 on a multitude of topics from sandbagging, to classifications and divisions..Go ahead admit it...Simple is Better...

[Crusher]

All the more reason to have a classifier stage or stage(s) in a match

Given the run times for most per stage on an IDPA classifier this is not pratical for a local match and not realistic in a sanctioned match. It will cause HUGE botlenecks for the stage in any match. I would not want to be on one of the squads told "you have a 1.5 hour wait to shoot your next stage" regardless of the match level.

I allways shoot an IDPA match with the

everyone shoot heads up against each other...

attitude, at least in my mind

[tightloop]

I am not talking about just IDPA, but every thing, IPSC/USPSA all of it...HEADS UP...

[rwmagnus]

All the more reason to have a classifier stage or stage(s) in a match

Given the run times for most per stage on an IDPA classifier this is not pratical for a local match and not realistic in a sanctioned match. It will cause HUGE botlenecks for the stage in any match. I would not want to be on one of the squads told "you have a 1.5 hour wait to shoot your next stage" regardless of the match level.

I allways shoot an IDPA match with the

everyone shoot heads up against each other...

attitude, at least in my mind

Based on my last IDPA match an 1.5 hour delay would be welcome. Try on a 2.5 AND a 3 hour delay and having to finish the next morning, Ugh.

Sandbaggn will never be regulated out. It's in IPSC as well.

Edited March 30, 2006 by rwmagnus

[Ted Murphy]

Ted: Note that the shooter did this intentionally on both strings 2 and 3. I thought a 3 second procedural for not observing the COF and another for not using cover in each occurence was appropriate. I think this was an incident of sandbagging.

In that case he gets a talking to then a reshoot.

Ted

[Matthew_Mink]

...or instead of adding 2 procedurals to his score, just deduct 6 seconds for sandbagging.

[kdmoore]

Jim, tell the whole story. Your going to end up making a mountain out of a mole hill. I think the shooter had physical reasons to not kneel, and has a long history of not liking to kneel. I do NOT think the shooter was sandbagging (pretty funny when you consider his open stance on sandbaggers ). Shooter has been expert ESP for a long time, and shot a 108 and change, not really pushing the 89 second threshold.

My vote:

Keep the classifications. They help the new shooters feel like they are progressing. They add complexity giving the score keepers something to do. We all get to the heads up shooting eventually. You know we all take the results and see the overall standing anyway.

That's why the best shooters end up in ESP. , no excuses, going after top spot all the way ....

[Joe D]

I would not be hard to come up with 20-30 Classifer stages that could be used. One per match would go a long way toward eliminating sandbaggers.

I guess I don't see that much sandbagging in IPSC. Most guys I shoot with want to move up. I see more of it in IDPA.

[revchuck]

I guess I don't see that much sandbagging in IPSC. Most guys I shoot with want to move up. I see more of it in IDPA.

I've only shot local USPSA matches, so I can't comment on sandbagging there. I've shot a few major IDPA matches, and the sandbaggers stand out there due to their rarity. 99+% of IDPA shooters shoot as well as they can, because that's what they came for - to compete, and win (if possible) by skill - though nobody turns down luck, either.

[Mayonaise]

I would not be hard to come up with 20-30 Classifer stages that could be used. One per match would go a long way toward eliminating sandbaggers.

I guess I don't see that much sandbagging in IPSC. Most guys I shoot with want to move up. I see more of it in IDPA.

Joe,

You know it's just not going to happen. I just don't see BW going that route. They killed the national classification database after it was created for them for free. As much sense as the USPSA classification system makes, I just don't think it will ever happen in IDPA.

I shoot a fair amount of sanctioned matches and just don't see sandbagging as a major issue. It would be eliminated if the winners of each class just moved up automatically regardless of the number of shooters. Or drop the minimum from 10 to 5 or something. If you really look at it, when was the last time anyone asked to see someone's classification card prior to shooting the match anyway?

Trophies are cool and I still cannot understand why a MA, EX or SS would want to collect "someone else's" trophy in a class lower then they belong. Maybe public ridicule of sandbaggers is in order when trophies are awarded.

[Joe D]

They had a "Sandbagger" award handed out at the Mississippi Match last year. Everyone voted by ballot as to the person they thought was the biggest sandbagger at the match.

Tell you what I hate to see is someone who makes Master in ESP, but shoots as a SS or Expert in SSP with the same gun. I know guys that have made Master in SSP and never shot that class again.

I agree the winner of a class should move up. Only downside is one of the revolver class where you have 1 or 2 shooters. I like the 5 shooter rule.

You are probably right, Bill will never go to a classifier system like IPSC uses.

[Mayonaise]

I like the sandbagger award.

Again, I know there are probably guys out there that do that stuff. I just don't understand that mentality. I'm for exposing them to humiliation though.

I guess you can't make it go away completely. If someone is determined to sandbag there will always be a way. Oh well!

[collinsk]

Tell you what I hate to see is someone who makes Master in ESP, but shoots as a SS or Expert in SSP with the same gun. I know guys that have made Master in SSP and never shot that class again.

IDPA BADLY needs to require shooters compete in their highest level of classification, with possibly an exemption for revolver. That would stop Master Class SSP shooters from competing in ESP Sharpshooter.

[rwmagnus]

Tell you what I hate to see is someone who makes Master in ESP, but shoots as a SS or Expert in SSP with the same gun. I know guys that have made Master in SSP and never shot that class again.

IDPA BADLY needs to require shooters compete in their highest level of classification, with possibly an exemption for revolver. That would stop Master Class SSP shooters from competing in ESP Sharpshooter.

Why would revolvers be an exception? All competition should be at your highest ability.

[collinsk]

The logic is that the operation and reloading of a revolver is far different than between auto pistols, even Glock to 1911. There are many shooters that simply have no experience with them, at least in competition.

[GmanCdp]

another point.....i know shooters who can shoot at the top or above their classification during a regular monthly match....then just fall apart during a state match....we all know that if you if you are shooting within your limits at a state match, and you make a mistake or 2,then that could throw you out of the running for 1st,2nd 3rd or 4th or whatever...i shoot with a couple of marksman shooters that have been in that class for 5 years..but at the local match's, they can and do just smoke me on several stages.....not only it is a game of several weapon skills, sometimes the mental part just takes over.... G'

[FTDR]

Ted: Note that the shooter did this intentionally on both strings 2 and 3. I thought a 3 second procedural for not observing the COF and another for not using cover in each occurence was appropriate. I think this was an incident of sandbagging.

yep that sounds like a sandbagger, do a cof quickly as possible {sarcasm}

if you thought he did it to receive a procedural, then do not give it to him so his score would be lower

[simonsay]

The classifier always seems to be a pain to put on, and are only offered a time or two a year. Everyone I shoot with wants to move up or did. There is nothing to gain by winning a class below your level except a cheap trophy or plaque.

There are no matches witin a days drive, that I know of, that have enough numbers for an expert to get bumped with the exception of Nationals. All of the better shooters in this area have fled to USPSA where there is at least some competition. Lots of people here have topped out and are seeking a new challenge.

Who in their right mind wants to shoot two sanctioned matches against no competition so they can qualify for Nationals in the hopes of getting bumped? Not me.

To get back on topic about the classifiers. If there was a classification system like uspsa where the experts could move up, it would certainly help with local participation numbers.

I don't know the answers but I know that IDPA locally has taken a big hit in the last year or two over the rule changes and other things. The total numbers may not have dropped but the quality of shooters fell off the cliff and Arkansas doesn't really seem to care.

Handicapping is a good way to generate interest with the hobby shooter but I'm suprised that Berryville just seems to turn their back on the top shooters and are content with the numbers.

rant over.

[Chills1994]

I just re-read everyone's comments. I agree with Tightloop entirely. Having classifications is basically a handicapping system. Since there is no prize table, just a raffle table, at IDPA major matches, outside of trophies per division/class, I don't see the reasoning behind classification.

The "evolution" of a shooter's proficiency from MM to SS to EX and then to MA smacks of a token economy to me. Which reminds me of the Boy Scouts: earn this, this, and this merit badge, you get promoted to Tenderfoot, Star, Life, and then Eagle.

Of course, everyone wants to strive for upward progression in anything they do. That is partly the allure for new shooters in IDPA. They want to rise quickly through the ranks untill somebody off to the side elbows them and says:

"Pssss! Ever hear about sandbaging? Everybody is doing it, and if you ever want to win a trophy at a major match you better do it too."

Switching gears just a bit...I bet there are people out there now who are using the trophies they won in IDPA as a way to pad their credentials/resume in order to teach CCW classes. Hence, another motivation ($$$) to sandbag. The uninitiated would be CCW student doesn't know that winning at such and such a match actually meant the guy won CDP/Novice or whatever and that there were 65 shooters who performed better than he/she did.

I'm just speculating though......YMMV.

More power to 'em if they are making money off this hobby/sport.

1. Either get rid of the classification system entirely

2. Incorporate classifier stages into matches like USPSA does

3. Have everybody just shoot heads up against people in the same division

4. Statistic-fy major matches within divisions and classify people into A squads, B

squads, etc based on the mean and SD or percentiles at a major match. Hand out

trophies accordingly.

Sorry to beat a dead horse folks....stepping off my soap box now.