Hard? Yes. But Was It Absurdly Hard?

[Vlad]

A bit of background first. OBCATS, one of my local clubs, puts a monthly 7 stage match which attracts anywhere from 55 to 80 shooters, normally around 80. One of those stages is always a classifier the rest of the courses are between 12 and 32 rounds. One of our pits forces all the shots to be towards the backstop or the left berm, because the right "berm" is one of our large storage containers. It would absorb gunfire but we dont want to destroy it.

Anyway, that pit is about 20 yards deep and maybe 10 wide, so we tend to have either a small hoser stage in it or put some walls with low ports to force some odd shooting positions or the like. In reponse to the Ron Avery's article and the discussions here, combined with the fact that our last few matches where a bit on the large round count hose fest side, I decided to make a HARD little standard exercise on our tiny pit.

The stage can be seen here:

http://www.obcats.com/obcats-stages/Avery-Made-Me-Do-It.pdf

What may not be clear from the drawing is that the top most target is only visible from the start box and maybe a couple of steps in the freefire zone, the top/left target can only be seen from the top of the free-fire zone and the other two can be seen from the free-fire zone but not from the starting box.

I didn't measure the exact distance to the topmost target, but I would guess around 18-20yards from the start box, and yes it is a head shot only. Frankly, I wanted it to be a HARD shot but not impossible. After shooting it, I still think it was a hard shot but not impossible. However a lot of people where begining to think about ambushing me in the parking lot because about 1/3 of the shooters apparently zero'ed the stage, mostly by missing or missing AND hitting the no-shoot.

I think a 20 yard head shot is a hard shot, and a really hard shot strong hand and weak hand, but I think it is a shot everyone should be able to make, though it may take longer then they would like. I've gotten some people saying that they liked the challange but I've got a lot more people giving me dirty looks.

Question is ... did I go to far? Is a weak hand 20 yard head shot way to hard? Does it have a place in our games?

Edited March 26, 2006 by Vlad

[Loves2Shoot]

"1/3 of the shooters apparently zero'ed the stage"

Are you meeting your customer's needs?

I think you already know the answer...

[Vlad]

Well, I do not yet KNOW that that many peopled zero'ed the stage, that's what people where saying. As for the customer needs .. I'm not sure about that. Maybe I made it to hard, or maybe they need to practice harder shots. I really just don't know, which is why I asked

Edited March 26, 2006 by Vlad

[davidball]

Is a weak hand 20 yard head shot way to hard?

Yep. Especially with a no-shoot in the neighborhood. If the stage was in response to being more "practical" ala Ron Avery, would you take a weak hand shot a 20 yards with only a head to hit with a friendly close by?

Does it have a place in our games?

Probably not, IMHO.

[Sixgun]

I looked fair to me. I personally want to know my weaknesses and then practice them untill they become a strength. I think that stage just gave a whole lot of people something to practice (20 yard head shots, both strong hand and weakhand.)

Ray

[Vlad]

Is a weak hand 20 yard head shot way to hard?

Yep. Especially with a no-shoot in the neighborhood. If the stage was in response to being more "practical" ala Ron Avery, would you take a weak hand shot a 20 yards with only a head to hit with a friendly close by?

I hope to God not to have to. But what if it was your only choice?

[Chris Rhines]

Strong or weak-hand only, yeah, it's on the cusp of too hard. Freestyle, no.

- Chris

[open17]

Evil. Sounds like something I might do. 20 yds isn't that far for a deliberate weak hand

shot. Most shooters just don't practice weak hand, and do not feel comfortable with it.

Not having the no-shoot there would have made it a lot more user friendly. Or, if you

had a minimum of 8 meters of distance, a steel hardcover target covering everything but the head would have been a nice touch.

Did anyone happen to notice that under current rules this stage is not legal?

The strong/weak hand requirements make it a standard exercise. 1.1.5.3

Component strings of a standard exercise must not require more than 6 rounds. 1.2.2.1

This stage requires 8 shots per string. Comments on whether US1.1.5.1 would make this stage OK at a level 1 match?

[Vlad]

Oops .. I read the damn book when I made this stage and I could have sworn I was ok, but now re-reading it it seems I wasnt. Ugh. I really did try to follow the rules. Sonofapuppy! Did these rules change in the last edition or have they been this way for a while?

Edited to add: I know why I screwed this up. When I planned this stage and sketched it, I was planning for a reload. When I made the real version, I worried about people not having enough magazines and holding up the squad and I took the reload out. Grr. This will teach me to re-check stages for legality.

Edited March 27, 2006 by Vlad

[Flexmoney]

Let's see the scores when they come out. If you had 80 shooters, then we ought to be able to tell if it was too hard for your current customers or not.

[Vlad]

Hmm .. that means I have to get going on the scores. I also happen to be the scores monkey ... <wonders away grumbling>

[38supPat]

I remember setting up a stage that had 2 full size poppers and 2 full targets at 35 yds...more than half zero'd it...I'd say there is a lot of people that need to learn to shoot, not hose. I watched an A class shooter empty 3 mags at the poppers alone then give up and double tap at the targets...skills man, skills!

[Jake Di Vita]

I personally like the challenge. However, from looking at the shooters in my area...I can guarantee well over half of them would have 2 mikes on a 20 yard headshot.....and that is freestyle.

Edited March 27, 2006 by Jake Di Vita

[Sherwyn]

I think you would have been OK, if you would have left things visible in more of the freefire zone.

Stages should always allow the c/d production shooter to shoot clean if they take the extra time. Mikes are a lot more discouraging to new shooters than slow times.

Give options that reward the tough shots, but remember that if the new shooter isn't having fun...he won't be back.

[ParaJoe]

From what your describing and the stage discription it sounds hard but why should you make everything easy? Make them work for it or have them come out and set the stages themselves.

JOe

[QQQQ]

From what I am reading.....just one more reason to never go to Jersey....have to sneak your stuff into the state so you can shoot stages that are......against the rules

[Bucky]

Did anyone happen to notice that under current rules this stage is not legal?

The strong/weak hand requirements make it a standard exercise. 1.1.5.3

Component strings of a standard exercise must not require more than 6 rounds. 1.2.2.1

This stage requires 8 shots per string. Comments on whether US1.1.5.1 would make this stage OK at a level 1 match?

Also, there was significant movement required, and it was a virginia course stage. IIRC, previous rule books did not allow Virginia count on any courses where there were movement. Currnet rules state it is allowed for short courses... which a 24 round course does not qualify.

9.2.3.2 Virginia Count must use paper targets exclusively, and must

only be used for Standard Exercises, Classifiers or Short

Courses.

[QQQQ]

Hey Bucky....I heard you had another stage on Sunday that had 28 rounds, three targets were to be shot weak hand only, and 3 were to be shot strong hand only and the rest you do what you want...Oh, and you had to carry one of those Tool Totes, and all your mags had to come from in it....dude what rule book do they work from in Jersey?

[David Olhasso]

Even with the US1.1.5.1 rule, the stage is probably NOT legal. US1.1.5.1 ONLY allows dispensation for ignorning the freestyle requirements and round count limitations, not throwing the rule book out the window. Since the course in question was scored virginia count, the stage must have been a classifier, short course, or standard exercise.

--We know the course was not a classifier -- even USPSA can't design a stage that ugly.

--If couldn't be a short course since there were 24 rounds and 3 starts. I don't think US1.1.5.1 allows a short course to be 24 rounds long

--So it must have been a standard exercise. It appears that the rule book does allow movement during a standard exercise, but each string must be no longer than 6 rounds unless a reload is specified. Again US1.1.5.1 is the only justification for this stage and again I don't believe that US1.1.5.1 allows rewriting what a standard exercise is.

Bottom line, in my opinion, the stage was not legal.

That said, wtf are you thinking? What ever happened to setting up stages that are challenging yet enjoyable? Why put a no-shoot right next to the target? Why make it Virginia count? There are plenty of ways to design a stage that challenges the shooters ability, but your approach is wrong. Period.

Yet in your defense, you did volunteer and show up before the match to setup the stage. But based on the stages you setup, it becomes easier for me not to shoot this match every month.

Just my opinion --- I could be wrong.

[Vlad]

Well, I've already said I screwed up in the count round due to my plan for a reload, followed by me deciding that the reload would have requiered to many mags.

My question was about the head shot and if it was to hard of a shot. I've made up my mind based on the comments in this thread. Thank you for the constructive criticism.

CLOSED.

[Jim Norman]

OK,

All persons concerned have been dutifully whipped. The after match review was conducted and the several items that were blatantly against the rules and should not have been included are noted and steps taken to make sure the same type of error and I emphasize error, unlikely to re-occur have been implemented.

All said, the match was generally well received by the 58 (Edited, we really didn't have 578 shooters) shooters we had that actually shot the match. Yes, the head Shot on Vlad's stage was difficult. Too bad. A hard shot is part of what should be included in a match. All shots need not be hard and I'll agree that having 6 hard shots that can effectively zero a stage all on one stage is probably a bit extreme. We have however learned a few things. We may well have one long tight shot or two that require you to shoot weak or strong hand only, forced by stage design, maybe a Rhodesian wall? Or two?

As for the "Tote Stage" We could have re-written the walk-through so that all RELOADS had to come from the Tote and the Tote had to be placed on the barrelhead before the last target was engaged. You may or may not have shot it weak and strong, but you probably would have shot a lot of it SHO.

Now, in defense of our designers, where were all of the complainers at 0730 in the rain building a match that may have turned out to get canceled if it rained just a bit more or a little harder? Or that may have had only the set-up crew actually shoot because of the weather?

These people got up earlier than most every one of the rest of the shooters, drove to the range in the RAIN and built the match, then they shot the match and STAYED to tear it all down and put it away! All this while the shooters, our customers if you will and quietly put on the their gear and got their minds set to shoot a match. The People that are taking the brunt of your criticism barely have time to get their gear on before they are called to the line on their first stage, Often they are called to shoot and get a single chance to walk a stage before they shoot it and have to run off to handle a question on another stage or play either Mr. Fixit or Dear Abby.

Yes, we make mistakes. We should have all the stages in a week or two prior to the match, a committee should review the stages and make all the required changes. And we could probably have 4 basic stages and a classifier instead of the 7 stages we run every month.

You want better stages? Get a piece of paper, a pencil or a crayon, and draw one up, send it to us, if it fits we'll be glad to show you where the props are kept and drop off all the steel and movers you need to build it. If you want to come out and shoot, please do. If you want to come about and help, PLEASE DO. If you want to tell us how royally screwed up we are, stay home.

This said there are two people that commented here and they know who they are, that have a right to comment on our match. One was the MD and the other the AMD for several years. The rest, thank you for your contributions. If you work your tails off at your home club, thank you, even if I am never privileged to shoot at your clubs. If all you do is show up, and shoot and scoot, then you have not earned the right to criticize the people that build the matches you enjoy tearing apart. We are human and we make mistakes.

As to shooting in NJ, please do come, we shoot all divisions regularly, we are similar in many respects to HI, CA, MD, MA, & NY. All of which have matches that many of you shoot.

Jim Norman

Edited March 27, 2006 by Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

Vlad,

I know what you were thinking. And, I can see where you were coming from for sure.

While the rule book didn't allow the round count you had in this stage, it certainly does allow the difficulty.

The difficulty is what this thread is asking about (we ought to be able to stay on that topic well enough).

And, I understand why you made the stage (as difficult) as you did. Especially with the recent article from Front Sight magazine. Too difficult? Well, it sounds like it might have been...

[Jim Norman]

I wonder...

Enage T1 & T5 and T4 with 2 rounds each Freestyle

Engae T2 & T5 and T4 with two rounds each SHO

Engage T3 & T5 and T4 with two rounds each WHO

Reduced the round count have the same required number of hits on teh bastard target (T4)

Maybe throw in T5 as I did in this examle,

Three starts, three separately timed strings, two targets are engaged three times all the rest once only. Would this have met the rules?

Jim

[rubberneck]

That stage was brutal but it was brutal accross the board. IIRC I had 3 B's and 1 A out of 6 on that stage which wasn't to bad considering the wind picked up and the shoot and no shoot started to dance around really good on the last string (weak hand only), which is where I picked up the hit on the no shoot.

Even though that stage was a total ball buster I had a really good time at the match and I really don't mind being pushed way outside my comfort zone like I was on that stage. While the merits of that stage were debated on my squad I took something away from that stage and that is I need to work on my ability to hit precision shots at longer distances both weak handed and strong handed. I guess that alone was worth the price of admission. Having said that, I wouldn't be upset if I never had the chance to shoot that stage again.

[chuckw]

The stage can be seen here:

http://www.obcats.com/obcats-stages/Avery-Made-Me-Do-It.pdf

I took a look at your list of stage designs, and this one caught my eye:

http://www.obcats.com/obcats-stages/P-Is-A-Pain-In-The-A.pdf

which looks illegal in some ways, and distasteful in other ways.