Subgun Vs. Grandmaster Smackdown

[EricW]

From this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33091

Who's faster through a course of fire? A guy with a machine gun or an IPSC Grandmaster.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but it would be interesting to find out anyway. So would forum member Carcass, and he has suggested the Knob Creek Machinegun shoot to do so.

My initial suggestions:

- I would like to design or at least have substantial input on the course of fire.

- IPSC / USPSA scoring and penalties

- 50 round COF with 2 mandatory reloads somewhere along the way.

The Knob Creek shoot is only two weeks away, so I think it's too short of notice to make anything happen, but I've been wrong before. I wish I could go and help, but alas, I will only be able to armchair quarterback from afar, and lay a bet if I can find anyone to take it.

Edited March 24, 2006 by EricW

[caspian38]

might be more fair to do sub gun verses say ... a C-class shooter ... B-class at the highest ...a Gm is just not fair since they shoot at a sub-gun cyclic rate (almost). not to mention they actually know where the bullets are going (how many sub-gun shooters are calling their shots ?).

Might be interesting to try one target 6 shots ...low ready... it would be close .

if you make it happen let us know how it turns out .

C-38

[AikiDale]

Why am I seeing flashback images of Muhammed Ali and a Japanese Pro Wrestler wasting time in the ring?

The outcome of any apples v. oranges contest depends upon which fruit the competition format favors and the quality of the fruit competing.

For any fair evaluation of one system over another I would think you should have the same shooter run the same course of fire with both weapons. Then by changing the course of fire we can determine which weapons system is best for which situations.

I'm sure we can come up with a COF that favors an ordinary shooter with pistol over a master with a subgun just as easily as one that favors a subgun shooter over a GM IPSC shooter.

If there is money riding on this I'll bet on Flex, after I have a chance to see the course of fire....

[dirtypool40]

I'll take some of that action....and I ain't no GM.

As I posted before here about subguns vs. a shooter, that may be the ultimate example of "indian vs. arrow". If they want to shoot iron site vs. iron site, I'd say you have the edge, even with less than half the site radius.

On short courses where they don't have to set up and move GM-like, and don't need to reload, and if you let them mount a dot, or a can (psuedo comp) they'll run closer. But on multi set ups, tighter shots, and generally more technical stages, the "cream" will still rise.

Do I want to shoot against TJ with a c-more mounted on a slicked up sub gun? No. But even at lowly "Master" class, I like my odds against the garden variety subgunner.

A couple years back a SWAT / IPSC buddy and I took his UMP45 to our local SMG match for Sh1ts and giggles.

What a scary goat rope that was. SMG with pistol back up.

Rules were no loading guns until you got to the line. That was about it.

I have never been swept so much by people that had no idea what they were doing in my life. Guys were dressed up like Rambo, or Blade. Guys were shooting SMG's costing $5-10k and drawing a $300 taurus out of a $6 gunshow special holster. And no one could really shoot.....well, anything they had with them. It was pretty weak.

One guy was self appointed tough guy, trainer, and set up courses so he could show you what you didn't know. He shot a silenced Sterling with a Docter, that was about like an air gun, he moved like something he must have seen in a movie, and I am not making this up, dressed in full costume like Austrailian SAS, beret and all.

He was clearly his own hero, and probably the toughest guy he'd ever met.

At first, it was all oohs and ahhs, and how'd he do that, as we couldn't get the UMP to run, so he was winning.

Then we learned that we could transition to pistol at any time, and we started shooting one mag through the SMG and winning the stages with the pistol.

oh yeah, we made friends that day

[Flexmoney]

Knob Creek is within driving distance. I wonder if we could bet "pink slips" ? I might have to pick up some police trade-in Glocks (I'd hate to lose my Glock, that mean I'd have to spend 5-10 minutes putting grip tape on the next one. )

[L9X25]

Years back HK set up a "kill house" at the local sheriff's range to demo their stuff. We were having an IPSC match on the range that day and they agreed to let us incorporate their house into their match. We set up a normal IPSC match with mainly field courses and, of course, "the house".

After our match, a few of the HK guys were there, along with an "M/A" class IPSC shooter that was also a swat guy. He got his MP5 and ran the big field course. He was significantly slower with the subgun than with his Open gun. It was not a fair fight. If they had to shoot with tight hostages and be sure to get 2 scoring hits, the disparity was even worse. Reloads were some of the problem but the Open guns just transitioned faster.

So, basically, with equal shooter, the Open gun wins. I am sure that, given enough of a disparity of shooter skill, different results could be obtained.

[Guy Neill]

Some years back Chuck Taylor published a piece where he had several shooters of various skill levels run through a course with both subguns and pistols to compare. In every instance the overall hits-time were better with the pistols.

Guy

[Bruce]

My money will be on the GM with a pistola...I have seen this show before.

Just let me know what odds I gotta give. Oh, uh, you uh, mean, like uh, straight-up head-to-head? Sooo, no odds?

[Bob Hostetter]

Back in the mid 90's before I retired as a LEO I spent about 5 years as a Weapons Instructor for our department. Since ammo and range time was unlimited I shot alot. Probably about 500-600 rounds a day. Alot of it was thru my USPSA gun and my MP-5. We also hosted USPSA matches at our range.

I would regularly shoot the USPSA stages with the MP-5 after the matches were over and before the inmates torn down the stages. I also raced several very good shooters with me using the MP-5 and they using their Opens guns.

As long as the distances were normal pistols distances, say under 35-40 yards the Open guns would win everytime............

[Crusher]

My money to goes with the GM for the "test" if there are tight shots the disparity in scores will be HUGE.

This would be very interesting to see (video), maybe MBane can assist in the "test", this would make some GREAT TV, and possibly drum up some "new" shooters for the handgun sports as a result.

[Jake Di Vita]

Sign me up.

[EricW]

I think we're waiting on Carcass now. I'm not sure if he has his own toys, plans on renting them, or what.

[Kevin Kline]

I thought years ago 6+, that they had a quick demonstration of that. I think it was JoJo Vidanes and a tactical/SWAT operator with his HK MP5. They shot either poppers or plates, I think it was like 8-10 of them. JoJo smoked him BAD!!

That was about the time when tactical/SWAT guys were really into the lasers and thought it was the Holy Grail. I think everyone started to re-think lasers and looked at red dots afterward.

Now, Im a SWAT guy myself and could tell you in a second, I practice w/ my subgun a lot, but also have been a GM in Limited for a while and I could probably run faster times with my Limited gun than the sub.

It is mainly b/c of the over a decade of IPSC shooting and practice with a handgun.

[Clay1]

So if the same people with equal skill run better with a pistol than a sub gun (I'm not contesting that observation), why doesn't every department turn in their MP5s for a pistol. Better yet, why not the boys kicking doors in various countries changing out pirmary weapons?

There is more to the picture than first meets the eye. I'm not a subgun shooter - can't afford a $30,000 to $40,000 MP5 with accessories, but there are probably some other tangibles that are not conducive to making this change.

Edited March 24, 2006 by Clay1

[L9X25]

So if the same people with equal skill run better with a pistol than a sub gun (I'm not contesting that observation), why doesn't every department turn in their MP5s for a pistol. Better yet, why not the boys kicking doors in various countries changing out pirmary weapons?

There is more to the picture than first meets the eye. I'm not a subgun shooter - can't afford a $30,000 to $40,000 MP5 with accessories, but there are probably some other tangibles that are not conducive to making this change.

I believe that the amount of training necessary to become "proficient" with a sub-gun is likely far less than what would be required with the pistol. If this assumption is incorrect (Kevin?), why would they still be issuing the sub-guns?

[Sterling White]

Each gun has a purpose! Ask any GI that has used a machinegun to lay down cover fire while troups moved into or out of position.

[EricW]

So if the same people with equal skill run better with a pistol than a sub gun (I'm not contesting that observation), why doesn't every department turn in their MP5s for a pistol. Better yet, why not the boys kicking doors in various countries changing out pirmary weapons?

There is more to the picture than first meets the eye. I'm not a subgun shooter - can't afford a $30,000 to $40,000 MP5 with accessories, but there are probably some other tangibles that are not conducive to making this change.

I believe that the amount of training necessary to become "proficient" with a sub-gun is likely far less than what would be required with the pistol. If this assumption is incorrect (Kevin?), why would they still be issuing the sub-guns?

I would contend that it is more difficult and more expensive to become proficient with a machine gun of any variety than a semi-auto. MUCH more.

For the record, there ARE people who use subguns who would give a GM with an open blaster a run for their money. Few, if any, will be at the Knob Creek shoot.

[/Tactical Mode Alert]

I believe that full auto has a place - for laying down cover fire - which is a technique that in reality has dramatically improved survivability in combat. Cover fire allows troops to move and that prevents wholesale slaughters a la WWI trench warfare.

[/TMA]

Alas, we are not graded on providing "cover fire." In IPSC, we are graded on putting points on targets per second.

There *are* techinques that dramatically improve the grouping of a machinegun versus a semi. How applicable these are through a run 'n gun COF, I don't know. I played with it a bit and find it very hard to believe that controlling a subgun and maintaining the dynamic motion that is inherent to shooting IPSC are mutually compatible. I only had a chance to shoot about 10 mags and I tried shooting on the move as well as static, and based on my short experience, I would ALWAYS prefer a semi over an auto, particularly if my semi was an AR with a JP trigger. I can rip some pretty short splits with that setup and call every single shot doing it.

[Flexmoney]

As to how I would set up the contest, I would require both to begin in surrender position, GM with pistol holstered, and subgunner with gun slung (probably with a single point sling, or whatever the preferred rig is). The subgunner will suffer slightly due to the increased inertia of the weapon.

OK...I dug up my $50 holster (as opposed to the $15 holster I've been using) and set a dry-fire target at 20y in the basement. Knob Creek is the second weekend in April...I should be free that weekend (no mathces to help run). Looks like a 6 hour drive.

1. Can a guy with a slung sub-gun get on target from surrender quickly?

2. I can't decide if 20y helps me or hurts me?

3. Is it worth the gas money?

[EricW]

3. Is it worth the gas money?

It all depends on if somebody is going to start covering bets. I'm waiting....

[Loves2Shoot]

I know a master class open shooter who has a subgun. We've done this experiement. You can do a plate rack pretty fast with a subgun "if" you hit them all. Pistols are just easier to manipulate (by far) than a subgun. Most any course that requires accuracy and movement will favor the pistol if the distance is IPSC appropriate.

Once we both shoot a full auto match, because the folk there let us borrow guns and ammo, nice guys. I shot some P.O.S. WW2 vintage gun made in Holland with a dot on it. I got second overall in the match because I had about 4 or 5 targets I didn't triple tap (I didn't know about the 3 hit rule ) and the mags took me about 5 seconds to change. My friend did pretty well shooting a Thompson. We both agreed shooting it IPSC stlye would have been much faster.

If I had to fend off a bunch of bad guys an no friendlies, give me a subgun any day. If there were bad guys with lots of folks I cared about around, give me an open gun.

Just different tools.

[Bob Hostetter]

Doug K. was on TV several years ago racing a guy with a subgun, and Doug won. And nothing has changed..........

Subgun skills, especially within the the demand's of an entry teams requirements, are much easier to obtain and maintain then the same level of skills using a pistol, even an Open pistol. This problem grows as the needs for precision and longer ranges increase. There also issues such as reholstering, weapons retention, and transistioning from weapons to empty hands for takedowns and cuffing. Additionally, any given round will have more power from the longer barrel of a subgun then say a 5" or 5.5" pistol barrel. A MP-5 in 10mm is a wonderful thing, and a M4 in .223 is even better, giving the operator alot more options in converting cover to concealment, or defeating body armor, then a 9mm at whatever velocity regardless of bullet type or contruction.

Remember alot of training issues for LE departments are decided by time and financial limitations, not ultimate performance goals. When I was with the training division for a department with about 1500 sworn officers we went thru close to a 1,000,000 rounds of pistol ammo every year. Add to that rifle and shotgun ammo and firearms training quickly gets limited by budgets, not needs.........

[Turtle]

Considering that I'm a GM that carries a subgun I guess I can put in my $.02 worth...

Bob makes some really good points.

Subgun skills, especially within the the demand's of an entry teams requirements, are much easier to obtain and maintain then the same level of skills using a pistol, even an Open pistol. This problem grows as the needs for precision and longer ranges increase. There also issues such as reholstering, weapons retention, and transistioning from weapons to empty hands for takedowns and cuffing. Additionally, any given round will have more power from the longer barrel of a subgun then say a 5" or 5.5" pistol barrel. A MP-5 in 10mm is a wonderful thing, and a M4 in .223 is even better, giving the operator alot more options in converting cover to concealment, or defeating body armor, then a 9mm at whatever velocity regardless of bullet type or contruction.

I would add that an Open IPSC gun is very impractical to a SWAT officer. There are many times though that we will use pistols instead of our primary weapons (HK 416's). I believe that the pistol indexes a little faster (in some instances) and it's better in close quarters so as to keep the weapon away from the bad guys reach. Sticking a gun in somebody's face might look cool on TV but it's not really a smart thing to do... You know you're fast but action beats reaction every time.

I will say that depending on the course of fire, the subgun may very well be the way to go. Say maybe, a 30 rd field course w/ targets ranging from 3yds to 100yds. It would be fun to see how things work out. Maybe let every shooter shoot every stage with both guns. It would turn a 5 stage match into a 10 stage match but I think that would be the way to go...

Edited March 25, 2006 by Turtle

[George]

My money goes on the P-Shooter every time even if a C grade shooter is at the helm. If the subgunner uses mostly single shots he might be able to get within 20%, if he's really good with that sub-gun that is. If not, oh well better luck next time ;-)

[Ben Stoeger]

I think that if we had been doing subgun "practical shooting" matches for the last few decades, we may come up with different results.

[EricW]

I think that if we had been doing subgun "practical shooting" matches for the last few decades, we may come up with different results.

Wait until you see the COF I want...