"bipsc" Clarifications

[boo radley]

Even if USPSA's current marketing strategy is geared toward bringing in shooters from IDPA and other more tactically oriented shooting sports - this based on what we are seeing in the provisional SS division - Is this not a good thing?

I don't know....

Personally, I don't know why the organization is wasting time, energy or money trying to recruit a grumpy bunch of vest-wearing IDPA members. Those that want to shoot IPSC *are* already shooting IPSC.

USPSA is better off, IMO, trying to grab new shooters. It's like cigarette companies: you aren't going to take a 20-year Marlboro red smoker, and persuade him to smoke Camel's. They aim advertising at the new smoker.

As far as Ron Avery goes, I read that article, and personally find the coined term "Bubblegum IPSC, or BIPSC" completely pejorative and insulting -- so much so, why try to drag something positive out of his "philosphy?"

[Merlin Orr]

The glass is half full, Boo....Hope springs eternal.

I think the "grumpy vest wearing IDPAers" will do what they always have - BUT - maybe some of the smiling face vest wearing IDPAers will come and enjoy without having to buy a bunch of new stuff....

[geezer-lock]

I like to think that I am one of the “smiling faced, vest wearing IDPAers”. I have been in IPSC over 20 years and been doing IDPA the last six. In our area there are a huge number of crossover shooters. I shoot more IPSC than IDPA these days but that is a time and resources issue.

If all the GM’s, Champions and Professional firearms instructors were considered as a group they would represent about 2% of the USPSA membership. I don’t have a problem with advice from these folks regarding the structure of matches, it just seems to fly in the face of what most (maybe all) of them preach. Look around on the web or in your personal shooting library and you will find quotes similar to these:

“a top shooter will fire 100,000 rounds in practice each year”

“don’t practice the things you are good at”

“you have to do more than shoot matches”

“it takes hard work”

“worked hard on the fundamentals…like distance, partial targets, strong and weak hand shooting.”

No one improves their shooting skills by attending matches of any type. What you improve with shooting matches (large or small) is your ability to shoot under pressure, your ability to “dope” stages, pacing yourself, and all the other “race day” skills that have nothing to do with firing a gun. This whole “bipsc” thing is a non-issue as far as I can tell.

The notion that our top shooters are not making the grade at the world level because of the type of match experience they have is absurd. If they are following their own advice they already know what they have to do.

Apparently the other 98% is getting along fine with things as they are.

Way more than two cents worth I'm sure.

David C

[shred]

Continuing with the thread drift-- at some of the local IDPA matches I've been to, more than half the guys are there just to shoot guns and have fun. It's a whole lot less serious and competitive than many of the IPSC matches, especially if you get dropped onto the local hotshots squad. Pushing 'tactical' won't get those guys, pushing 'fun' will.

[Chuck D]

"The notion that our top shooters are not making the grade at the world level because of the type of match experience they have is absurd. If they are following their own advice they already know what they have to do."

Sorry, I tend to agree with multiple National and World champions on what type of match experience is needed to field a successful U.S. team.

“worked hard on the fundamentals…like distance, partial targets, strong and weak hand shooting.”

The above is what Bubblegum IPSC lacks...

Edited March 29, 2006 by Chuck D

[Jim Norman]

"The notion that our top shooters are not making the grade at the world level because of the type of match experience they have is absurd. If they are following their own advice they already know what they have to do."

Sorry, I tend to agree with multiple National and World champions on what type of match experience is needed to field a successful U.S. team.

“worked hard on the fundamentals…like distance, partial targets, strong and weak hand shooting.”

The above is what Bubblegum IPSC lacks...

Chuck,

I don't know whether I know you or not, so don't take offense here, OK?

If you are not happy with the stages at your club and you feel they are too "BIPSCish" then get yourself a crayon and an old piece of busted sheetrock and draw up a stage or two. Insert a 35 yard tight shot at a plate with real hard cover surrounding it. Put in some tight paper with NS targets surrounding them. Put up a wall or two with a fault line that forces the shooter to engage weakhand or stronghand only.

Voila! No more BIPSC! Its simple, all you have to do to cure this malaise is get up two or three hours earlier on match day and show up with a few hundred dollars worth of your own tools, build the stage and forget about being well rested when your turn to shoot comes up.

This applies to everyone that wants a particular style of COF. Draw it, submit it and then get up early and build it.

It has been said this is a voluteer sport. True enough, what is sadly less true is that not enough people volunteer. BTW, I realize that not everyone has the skills to design or build a stage, but if you are capable of shooting in this sport there are certainly many aspects that you could help out with. Sign-up, Stats, Prizes, Training, RO duties, MD, RM, Dear Abby type stuff. Just being the guy that picks up 20 gallons of water, the coolers and 5 bags of ice every match day and makes sure that they are placed and that theyere are cups available would be a great help. It is one more thing that some one else doesn't have to do.

Again, Chuck, this is not directed at you as I don't think I know you, It is more properly directed at your comments and at the people that think that they only ever need shoot and scoot.

Jim Norman

[markm]

I like "my" Ipsc just the way it is. Fun, Challenging, Good Friends. I like hoser stages, standards, short field courses, long field courses, I guess just about any thing you want to shoot at. I don't own a "carry gun", have a CCW permit, or really want one. If I need to put a piece of velcro on my open gun to call it tatical, so be it, but someone explain to me how 29 rds of 38Super at major power factor is not a deterent in my home? I feel this is the same bashing by the same group that can't compete at the level they think they should. I'm stuck in my class cause I don't dry fire enough, practice enough, or have the desire to move up. Even me, with limited ability can be a M shooter if I worked at it. The guys that do tatical stuff for a living, let them go be tatical. For those who think tatical is cool, let them go be cool. I'm probably alone in this, but just let the rest of us go shoot, have fun, compete with our buddies, go eat and drink a beer or two, and do it again next week.

[moverfive]

The notion that our top shooters are not making the grade at the world level because of the type of match experience they have is absurd. If they are following their own advice they already know what they have to do.

Apparently the other 98% is getting along fine with things as they are.

Way more than two cents worth I'm sure.

David C

But them are some PRETTY pennies! Very well said.....

The one comment that I would be curious to hear opinions on. Going back about 10 or so years ago, we had LOTS of sponsored shooters - with varying levels of support. With that additional support, we were able to practice more, attend more matches, and therefore be a little more on top of our game. All of this because some of the funds, equipment, and/or assistance was provided AND there was a little added pressure to perform.

Now that sponsorships are fewer and far between, could part of the lack of success (I hate to use that term because I don't believe it) that Leatham referred to be because the US has reduced the NUMBER of top shooters that are able to treat this like a second job, which I think is somewhat applicable, or......

......have the international crowd just caught up and are now giving the US shooters REAL competition with an equal chance of winning?

I think both is the case. Which brings us back to the point - are the type of matches that the US shoots really off-base? I don't think so. But I think after reading all of these opinions stated, there is room for improvement, but don't sacrifice the fun aspect to satisfy the smaller crowds (and Ron Avery).

[Singlestack]

I like "my" Ipsc just the way it is. Fun, Challenging, Good Friends. I like hoser stages, standards, short field courses, long field courses, I guess just about any thing you want to shoot at. I don't own a "carry gun", have a CCW permit, or really want one. If I need to put a piece of velcro on my open gun to call it tatical, so be it, but someone explain to me how 29 rds of 38Super at major power factor is not a deterent in my home? I feel this is the same bashing by the same group that can't compete at the level they think they should. I'm stuck in my class cause I don't dry fire enough, practice enough, or have the desire to move up. Even me, with limited ability can be a M shooter if I worked at it. The guys that do tatical stuff for a living, let them go be tatical. For those who think tatical is cool, let them go be cool. I'm probably alone in this, but just let the rest of us go shoot, have fun, compete with our buddies, go eat and drink a beer or two, and do it again next week.

+1!

[shred]

I'm not sure why people think that international matches have a bunch of strong or weak-hand shooting at far-off targets. The World Shoot sure didn't.

It had US poppers at 35 yards, and few targets inside 10, but very little strong/weak hand shooting, and that was fairly close. You'll see more of that in one classifier match in the US than the entire WS. It did have a lot more precision set-ups, and up and down movement required, and very little 'hosing'.

[Chuck D]

Jim:

You ask me not to take offense and then you "school" me about volunteering at my local club.

For 20 years I've done so...volunteered time and my own money for that matter. Interestingly enough...I've designed stages that tested the shooters ability to do more than blast away at targets so close the cardboard suffered from muzzle flash burns. All I got for my efforts is constant "bitching" that the stages were too hard. After a steady diet of this...I just gave up.

We've dumbed down the sport SO much that unless it's a hoser festival...it isn't viewed as fun anymore. It doesn't matter whether I say it, Ron Avery says it or TGO says it. Most won't believe it anyway.

I liken it to telling your doctor...you know, the guy/gal that went to medical school and passed all those tough exams...that he/she is CONSTANTLY wrong and your right when it comes to your diagnosis.

By the time you figure it out and take steps to correct the problem...it's too late...your already dead or well on your way to being dead. USPSA's ability to attract new members is on life support. If it were not, you wouldn't see them going in the direction they are to attract new members.

The actions taken by USPSA speak for themselves.

No offense taken Jim....

Edited March 29, 2006 by Chuck D

[Ben Stoeger]

Good point Shred!

Usually, when I say I would like to see tougher matches, guys think of the most extreme thing they can. "What, you want 50yd weak hand? Go shoot bullsye!" they tell me. When I say tougher, I mean to say that I would like less 5-10 yd targets. Maybe push them back a little bit. Spread the Arrays out for some tougher transitions. Not a huge deal.

[Jim Norman]

Chuck,

I am glad you did not take offense. as none was meant. Point of fact is that I used your post to point out to those that complain that the solution may well be in their own hands.

Obviously you have, from your post, done your share plus some. I admit to having pulled back just a bit as of late and only designing stages for one club, generally thosgh I try to help build and /or tear down at most matches.

Perhaps we will get a chance to shoot together and commiserate about the diminishing state of affairs at some future match.

Jim Norman

[Chuck D]

"Perhaps we will get a chance to shoot together ..."

I'd like that very much.

[Vlad]

..... I wonder if the shriking membership is a local thing. Jim should have the number for our club, but based on the number of sheets I have to go through everytime I do scores I can say that more people are shooting our game, not less. And this is in New Jersey for Pete's sake! Are clubs around the country really seeing less shooters? We are at the point at which we bitch about to many shooters, though we understand it is a stupid problem to have.

[geezer-lock]

"

Sorry, I tend to agree with multiple National and World champions on what type of match experience is needed to field a successful U.S. team.

“

Now we are talking about a different kettle of fish and an even more minuscule number of people. Here again I think that this is a non-issue for most of us.

David C

[mlmiller1]

Going back to the original post, I read the article by Mr. Avery & at first I was offended. Then I remembered having met him a couple of times. I can promise, although he is a good shooter(way better than I), he is not the kind of guy whose opinion I care about. If he had a point, it got lost in his personality which came through clearly in his article. It comes through just as clearly in person. Very knowledgeable but his ambitions aren't mine. I shoot for fun & to try to improve my skills with a gun. I really don't care if it is "practical-tactical" or not. Bubble gum ipsc? How about some "Super Bubble?" As for setting up matches that will help train us for world shoots, I don't think so, not at our range. I do believe matches should be a balanced mixture but only for the reason I find it more fun having run & guns, stand & shoots, & long field courses. It doesn't really matter what we set up as long as it is safe, fun, & challenging. I think it is nice when you can make it "beginner friendly" but more importantly when you have new shooters you make them feel welcome. That will bring them back more than anything else.

Training for big matches goes back to practice. You won't learn to shoot better in a match. Practice is where the skills are learned to compete. I don't really think the big name shooters should have any more input in what should be shot at matches than the average shooter. Let's go shoot & have fun & ignore things such as this "article". I personally am looking forward to the next front sight mag so I can toss this one & hopefully the new one will have something worth reading!

MLM

[shred]

Um, I think the goal is not fielding a successful US team, it's about creating and fielding the best IPSC shooters in the world at all levels. 5-yards-all-day-long won't get us there and neither will a raft of 25-yard-WHO-head-shots. Balance baby.. it's all about balance and being good at everything. To be good at everything, we need to both practice everything and prove how well we can execute it in the one-run-and-that's-it atmosphere of a match.

[wide45]

it's about creating and fielding the best IPSC shooters in the world

Um, no.

We're charging these guys, and gals $15 or $100 bucks to shoot a match. If we are not creating customer satisfaction first and foremost, we won't be here long enough to field anything.

[Flexmoney]

THE PRINCIPLES OF THE SPORT

THE FOUNDATION... Safe gun handling. This is developed through training

and practice. We don’t care how fast you do it; we care how safe you do it.

D.V.C. ... The motto “D.V.C.” stands for the three legs of practical shooting

triangle.

D = Diligentia = Accuracy.

V = Vis = Power.

C = Celeritas = Speed.

The shooter is challenged to find a “winning” combination of these factors.

[Ron Ankeny]

The shooter is challenged to find a “winning” combination of these factors.

Yeppers.

Um, I think the goal is not fielding a successful US team, it's about creating and fielding the best IPSC shooters in the world at all levels. 5-yards-all-day-long won't get us there and neither will a raft of 25-yard-WHO-head-shots. Balance baby.. it's all about balance and being good at everything. To be good at everything, we need to both practice everything and prove how well we can execute it in the one-run-and-that's-it atmosphere of a match.

I absolutely agree. As has been said on this forum hundreds of times, good course design is challenging to all levels of shooters but not overtly punitive to the D and C shooters, the course tests a variety of skills, and the course is fun to shoot. Designing and building those types of courses can be hard work, but the payoff is worth the effort.

[shred]

it's about creating and fielding the best IPSC shooters in the world

Um, no.

We're charging these guys, and gals $15 or $100 bucks to shoot a match. If we are not creating customer satisfaction first and foremost, we won't be here long enough to field anything.

I agree we need satisfied customers, but we can't short-change them either. I know where a focus on short-term profits and sales can take a good organization and it's not pretty.

I think most of us are in this game because it's simple to learn and very hard to master. We can't lose sight of either of those.

[eric nielsen]

Bingo, Shred.

One of the fun things that drew me into this sport was the chance [several chances a year] to shoot the same match - even the same squad - with a champion shooter. Fathers bring their sons, people bring their cameras, people remember those matches for a long time.

I've had several top-10 finishers and 2 national champions tell me that they choose to shoot fewer local matches because of the frustration with hoser courses. To paraphrase, they don't have much fun and they don't get recognition for their out-of-this-world skills when there's a stage where if they [the champ] nail their footwork and crank on the trigger, and a local B-shooter nails his footwork and cranks on the trigger, the difference in scores is maybe 5%.

That sort of complaint does NOT apply to last year's Area 6 or this year's Florida State match. Those were great. If you saw 5-yard targets they were like 3 targets out of 12 on the stage - like just enough to tempt you to hose at the next targets which might be partials at 28 yards. Fun, aiming, gun control, and mental control, all on the same stage.

[Lurper]

it's about creating and fielding the best IPSC shooters in the world

Um, no.

We're charging these guys, and gals $15 or $100 bucks to shoot a match. If we are not creating customer satisfaction first and foremost, we won't be here long enough to field anything.

I agree we need satisfied customers, but we can't short-change them either. I know where a focus on short-term profits and sales can take a good organization and it's not pretty.

I think most of us are in this game because it's simple to learn and very hard to master. We can't lose sight of either of those.

Actually Wide, it does matter. Customer satisfaction has nothing to do with competition. The sport was founded on the principles Flex mentioned above. No one leg should be favored over the other. The idea is to have a balance and to present the shooter with a problem and allow them to solve it freestyle within safety constraints. What needs to happen is to change the "customer's" expectations. If people are in this for the money then they probably don't have a lot of sense. If they are in it for fun, they need to find a yardstick to measure success by that is not based on the match results. If they are in it for personal develpment, then they should measure success against their past performances. The purpose of local matches should be fun and shooter development. Sectionals and higher should challenge the best shooters (even at the expense of the lower class shooters). The overall goal of the larger championships should be to weed out the best from the rest and the whole purpose of the World shoot should be to find the best IPSC shooter in the world. Not just the team. IPSC is a sport of personal achievement and as such needs to challenge the best shooters. I used to get so tired of hearing "If I had a sponsor I'd be that good too!" Well, no you wouldn't. The people who have achieved that level made huge sacrifices in their personal, professional and financial lives to get there. All of the things that USPSA has done to draw in more shooters has damaged the sport. Not because they are bad ideas necessarily, but because they were poorly thought out and implemented and because the masses dictated what direction the sport went at the expense of the principles that the sport was founded on. Sort of like throwing out the Bill of Rights to improve the Constitution.

[Jaxshooter]

Maybe our sport has become like others in the US. For decades the US dominated the Ryder Cup in golf, but no longer. Just recently the US professional basseball players were not even in contention for the World Baseball Championship and this was or is our "national pastime". I don't want to leave out our great NBA players that can't win at the Olympics either.

It may just be the fact that we are satisfied with what comes easy without alot of work while others are still striving to be the best in the world. Just another point of view.