Uspsa Match Ammo Rules

[shred]

(assuming one agrees that for a match ammo service to be successful financially, a "free chrono pass" would have to be granted to a competitor who chooses to use it).

aaaa!! I do not believe that the 'free pass' is required to make the program successful. I guess I wasn't clear enough earlier.

A good product, priced right is what's needed.

I think that is there or coming close to it. What it does not need is a bunch of controversy around the haves and have-nots at a match.

[MikeFoley]

This may seem to have nothing to do with the discussion, but...

ICORE accepts factory ammo from a major manufacturer as sufficient even if it doesn't make the minor floor of 122. I understand that our issue is only more complex because of Major and Minor, and the fact that we use a wider variety of barrel types.

I still say make more than one load with each bullet weight with only a few tenths difference in powder. Then send both samples, and let the shooter decide which one to order for the match. Shooter still chronos at home, and at the match. Leaves the burden on the shooter to do his homework.

Official match ammo cannot be a free pass, it is simply to make getting ammo at the match a more stable process.

BTW, there will always be cheaters at chrono regardless. Even un-intentional cheats can shoot different types of ammo in the match.

Edited March 9, 2006 by fomeister

[Flexmoney]

I am short on time and haven't read the thread (shame on me)...

We all load with a cushion.

Instead of the "official ammo supplier" loading right to the power factor floor, perhaps they should be required to load to pf+5, like we all do to ensure we have the cushion? Wouldn't that come closer to producing ammo that is "fair"?

[kevin c]

Well, they do load a cushion, Flex. The problem is that the cushion is 169 PF in Sedro Woolley's guns, but not mine .

Match ammo with varying velocities/specifications can be done, if the market is big enough (how many versions of Eley 22 LR can you get, something like sixteen?), but it sounds like USPSA/IPSC isn't there yet.

The people with the potential of chrono'ing minor velocities with the match ammo are those with slow barrels (like me ) who, with their own ammo, might give themselves that 4 or 5 PF cushion in their own gun, which might shoot 174 or 179 PF in Sedro's or yours, or my other guns. But they have to take what PD or another match ammo provider gives them, so they don't get to build in an additional cushion for range temperature, altitude and chrono voodoo that might put them under. Hence the rule to make the program viable by giving the pass at the chrono. So the slow bbl shooters of match ammo are not the ones who have a problem, even though their guns might only make minor velocity.

The people with the problem are those who bring their own ammo and go minor. The rules require that these folks be scored minor, while the match ammo users will not. The rules now treat submajor PFs differently, and therefore will score competitors differently, based only on where and how they got the ammo used in the match, not on what that ammo does in the competitors guns. I can't see how, while shooting for score/prizes/awards in the same division, that it's fair to penalize some for not meeting a standard, but not others for not doing the same.

Edited March 10, 2006 by kevin c

[Rob Boudrie]

I can assure everyone that the board will be very interested in learning if any problems develop in this program.

Given the current information available, I think we have struck a reasonable balance between the different tradeoffs. The World Body - which is actually where this concept started - seems to think so as well.

We already make tradeoffs between "fairness" and "expediency" - for example, nothing is done to level the playing field when different competitors compete under vastly different weather conditions. None the less, we still allow match scores to stand even if it only some competitors get rained on as doing so represents the best balance between "fairness" and "getting the job of running a match done." The tradeoff between the convenience of an assured power factor and an absolute assurance nobody gets an undeserved pass is another balancing act.

We will be watching for actual problems, and also measuring the positive benefit matches receive from this program, to make sure we maintain a reasonable balance.

[Bear23]

Maybe at the matches that chrono, records will be kept.

Those who are using PD ammo are still required to chrono, but are classified as major. The data is recorded, what gun was used, approx number of rounds thru the gun. Voila, we now have a database that PD can use to modulate their match ammo. Do it for a year and see what we have.

[Rob Boudrie]

The USPSA President has full authority over this, so I will ask him.

Keep in mind that the "official ammo" chrono is confirmation sample of 3, not the best 3 of 8, so that alone will make these numbers a bit lower. It will, however, give us a great set of data across a wide variety of guns.

Rob

[omnia1911]

USPSA and PD pretty much have to imply a warranty to avoid a public relations nightmare.

I predict that there will never be an incident of someone using match ammo and failing to make their declared power factor, no matter how far below the floor it chronos. 5.6.3.7 and 5.6.3.8 will never come into play, especially 5.6.3.8. Can you imagine traveling to a big match, using match ammo, and not being able to shoot for score or recognition. OUCH!

[Nebraskan]

So, if all match ammo will qualify as major, regardless of actual PF, is it beyond the realm of possibility that someone will buy match ammo beforehand and build up a new gun with a worn out, recut, etc barrel such that it will consistently run the match ammo at 155PF, shrug their shoulders and say, "Well, it's match ammo so it's major."?

[Bear23]

So, if all match ammo will qualify as major, regardless of actual PF, is it beyond the realm of possibility that someone will buy match ammo beforehand and build up a new gun with a worn out, recut, etc barrel such that it will consistently run the match ammo at 155PF, shrug their shoulders and say, "Well, it's match ammo so it's major."?

So I'm gonna take my 2000$ Limited gun and put a crappy 50$ worn out barrel in it???? Just for the sake of decreasing PF???

[kevin c]

So, if all match ammo will qualify as major, regardless of actual PF, is it beyond the realm of possibility that someone will buy match ammo beforehand and build up a new gun with a worn out, recut, etc barrel such that it will consistently run the match ammo at 155PF, shrug their shoulders and say, "Well, it's match ammo so it's major."?

No point, I think, since the same ammo is being used. My physics are fuzzy, but I believe the recoil impulse felt in shooting a semiauto is based not only on the weight and speed of the bullet, but the powder charge as well. Some of the powder and combustion gasses fly towards the target and add to the equal but opposite thrust of recoil, the rest turns into the kinetic energy in the bullet, or heat. I think that there'd be more gas and powder moving towards the target in a bored out barrel (less pressure, less efficient burning) and that would make up some, perhaps most of the difference. The impulse might be different, but I don't think it'd actually feel like a 155 PF load using the same weight bullet but less powder.

But I will defer to the mechanical engineers, physical scientists, and professional ballistics folks to correct my ramblings .

...I predict that there will never be an incident of someone using match ammo and failing to make their declared power factor, no matter how far below the floor it chronos. 5.6.3.7 and 5.6.3.8 will never come into play, especially 5.6.3.8...

That's how the rules read to me right now. And I hope, though I might predict to the contrary, that there won't be a lot of protest from those who went minor with their own ammo about being unfairly treated. Can you imagine travelling all that way and spending all that money only to shoot minor, and be pushed further down in the standings by one or more shooters in your division who had slower ammo in their gun but got scored major? ouch...

grammar and spelling edit...

Edited March 9, 2006 by kevin c

[ima45dv8]

The best proposal I've read so far is to take whatever turns out to be the lowest/slowest chrono result with the PD ammo and make that the floor for Major (or Minor, if applicable), at that match.

Edited March 10, 2006 by ima45dv8

[kevin c]

...All this talking got me interested. I called PD and ordered a sample package for testing. I can hardly wait to get it.

I'd like to know what velocities you get, if ya don't mind. Of thirteen approximately 5" 40 guns mentioned in the two threads on this ammo, four (or five, if you count my gun, but I'll leave it out since it did make major based on lotsa rounds and a heavy bullet), have had submajor PF's reported. More data is better, though, of course, what'd be better is info from a major match with the ammo program in place and plenty of users.

The best proposal I've read so far is to take whatever was the lowest/slowest chrono result with the PD ammo and make that the floor for Major (or Minor, if applicable), at that match.

Something worth proposing if this turns into a major issue.

[wide45]

QUOTE(ima45dv8 @ Mar 9 2006, 04:08 PM) *

The best proposal I've read so far is to take whatever was the lowest/slowest chrono result with the PD ammo and make that the floor for Major (or Minor, if applicable), at that match.

So nobody knows what the minimum PF is, until the last gun is chronoed? Big help.

[ima45dv8]

QUOTE(ima45dv8 @ Mar 9 2006, 04:08 PM) *

The best proposal I've read so far is to take whatever was the lowest/slowest chrono result with the PD ammo and make that the floor for Major (or Minor, if applicable), at that match.

So nobody knows what the minimum PF is, until the last gun is chronoed? Big help.

You'er right Wide, but at least people wouldn't dinged for, say, 164.5 when the 'match' ammo only chronoed 164.

It's not a perfect solution, but it seems like it's getting in the neighborhood of fair.

[Larry White]

This is really not that hard. All get checked at the chrono. If the lowest PF useing PD ammo that gets to shoot at major is 162.9 or what ever everyone that makes 162.9 or above with any ammo is major FOR THAT MATCH ONLY.-----Larry

About two post down from the above I stated that it was a bad idea, but maybe not. Might put a load on the stats folks though. It would suck to travel and come up a little short while someone just as short or worse shoots major. But far worse is the guy shooting production who dosent make minor at 122 and shoots for no score while a another shoots at 119.------Larry

Edited March 10, 2006 by lkytx

[Singlestack]

The best proposal I've read so far is to take whatever turns out to be the lowest/slowest chrono result with the PD ammo and make that the floor for Major (or Minor, if applicable), at that match.

I really hate this idea. We all go through a lot of trouble and expense to insure we make the correct PF with room to spare and this just seems to fly in the face of the effort. I don't feel like anyone shooting "match" ammo should get a pass on the rules either.

[Paul B]

As everyone knows the mactch ammo rule was put into effect due to travel with ammo probelms which are even more onerous on those with heavy bullets. A noble effort, but just a few points.

1. I don't think this is going to be anyones preferred ammo based on some of the comments on this board. First there is the dirty issue which may lead in some guns to jams etc. Also, though, did anyone notice that they are using 7 grains of "some" powder. This indicates to me they are using a slower powder - probably for liability reasons. Most real competition loads with a 180 gr .40 are =-5 gr or less. I personally do not like the feel of slower powders as the recoil impulse is all wrong. I suspect most others with a lot of experience will also find it "different."

2. There is probably no way to get the exact right load on PD's part so they have done the best they can this year. I say let the free ride last this year only. During 2006 every competitor who wants to shoot them should be able to get the sample packs and try them out in their gun. For 2007, everybody chrono's according to the rules.

[.40AET]

I'd like to know what velocities you get, if ya don't mind.

Oh..don't worry about that. That's the only reason that I bought the stuff.

[kevin c]

I'll be waiting with bated breath...