Ron Ankeny Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 (edited) It was a sarcastic reference to all the nonsense written as to what is and isn't "tactical." I know. Just figured I would make one last cast to see if I could get a nibble. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Edited March 8, 2006 by Ron Ankeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 (edited) OK, I finally got to read the article on "BIPSC". It's pretty much an non-entity on my radar, since I found its construction to be poorly considered. If you want to bitch about something, then by all means -- Bitch!, and do it like you mean it. Don't waffle around on the issue. To me, starting an article with the introduction that, "It's time for a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor", and then progressing through to a finish that says, "I felt strongly enough to say something about it" was more than a little inconsistent. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ To the point of the article, I don't really care what challenges or tests are presented at a match (although I maintain a dislike of excessively short "Gumby-people ports" ). If the stages happen to have colorful and attractive window dressing, no big deal. As long as everyone else has to shoot the same courses of fire that I do, that's fine. If I really do find something objectionable, I suppose my best option would be to volunteer to set up the next event with stages more to my personal tastes. If I'm not willing to make that sacrifice of my time and effort, then I best just shake the hands of those who did and thank them for doing it for me. ...Mark Edited March 8, 2006 by ima45dv8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 If I really do find something objectionable, I suppose my best option would be to volunteer to set up the next event with stages more to my personal tastes. If I'm not willing to make that sacrifice of my time and effort, then I best just shake the hands of those who did and thank them for doing it for me. I agree and that's one of the reasons that I design stages, build props, etc. It is a nice feeling when folks who are not able to help, thank the workers and compliment them on their efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 After reading Ron Avery's article I came away with the impression that he was unhappy with some of the stages at the last Area 2 match (and maybe a couple of other matches). Well, there were a lot of people unhappy about some of the stages at last years Area 2 match, including several staff members that I spoke with, at length, concerning one of the stages. I think the issue is more how some of these trick targets are used then the targets themselves. I have no problem with clamshells, texas stars, windmills, drop turners, bobbers, swingers, or any of the other oddball stuff we are starting to regularly see. But they need to be used in a way that presents a reasonable test of shooting skill, not a "lets see who gets luck" method. If you put a 4 target windmill completely hidden behind a wall with only one small port (10-12") to see and engage the targets in (2 no-shoots and 2 shot targets) I think you are searching more for the luckest shooter, not the best (a southwestern sectional). What I really don't like are memory stages where you have to stand in a couple of different spots perfectly in order to even see all the targets. Especially when shooting in a 15 person squad with a 5 minute walk thru. Especially at an Area match where you are competing for slots to the Nationals. But then again I am gettin old so I might just be getting grumpy again....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) +1 on what Bob says. So-called "Memory" stages only test to see who was on break before they shot the stage or who had a buddy on a previous squad that worked out the order. In my experience, the main problem with the spiffy props like the Star such is 'familiarity breeds contempt'. If a club has a TX Star, they'll shoot it quite a bit. The local hotshots will get pretty good at it. The stage designers will then think "I'll throw on a few no-shoots at the top and a few more behind it to slow old so-n-so down". Except the cr@p rolls downhill.. the closer you get to the bottom, the more frustrating and less fun it is to shoot. The top shooters will always separate themselves on points and time, no matter what kind of stage it is. It's how fun it is to the other shooters that matters [.. for the match as a whole] If you're putting on a major match and have a Star or windmill or whatever, put it out in the open and let people shoot it, not fooferaw around trying to weave shots through a sea of no-shoots or sideways ports or whatever. Edited March 9, 2006 by shred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 The top shooters will always separate themselves on points and time, no matter what kind of stage it is. It's how fun it is to the other shooters that matters So Shred, the top shooters are out of luck if they are looking for a FUN and CHALLENGING stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 The top shooters will always separate themselves on points and time, no matter what kind of stage it is. It's how fun it is to the other shooters that matters So Shred, the top shooters are out of luck if they are looking for a FUN and CHALLENGING stage? No. Every stage is challenging if you have competition at your level. Most are also fun. It's much harder to be frustrated when you can make any shot and have practiced all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) That's not what I heard at all (Shred beat me to the post.) Fun and challenging has NOTHING to do with memory stages or funky props, they are just ANOYING. I hate seeing a stage I know I can shoot, but know the average Joe is going to have a horrible time. I HATE watching C class shooters get bummed out because someone put a overly complicated stage/target in a match or they can't remember where all the targets are. Some of the best stages I've ever shot give people options on how to shot it, a fair amount of black and white (but enough so the average guy can score too) and some steel. Good stage design doesn't have to be hokey. Edited March 9, 2006 by Loves2Shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) Yeah, what L2S said. Edited March 9, 2006 by Ron Ankeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 This thread started out about Texas Stars and who ddin't like 'em and why...so bringing it back to the original subject: The reason I don't like T'Stars are not that I take so long (and so many mags) to shoot the darn things...it's lugging it out of the storeroom and putting it back that's killing me! How 'bout somebody design (and get USPSA to approve) lightweight targets like them foam knockdown targets that were marketed awhile back. Just kidding. gino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 (edited) Actually, this thread was started by splitting it from another where people started talking about the inane "BIPSC" article by Ron Avery in the last issue of "Front Sight". That's why Ron's name is mentioned in the opening post of this thread. Edited March 11, 2006 by Bigbadaboom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 I love inventive stages with all kinds of fun props. I want to shoot the stars and the windmills, but they often present a different challenge for different competitors and they sometimes test skills at the match level that cannot be practiced in any realistic way by most people: 1. Having shot a lot of stars and windmills (never great but not too bad either) and having reset them many many times, they always behave differently even if shot the same. It takes excruciating care to be sure they are set the same for everyone. I'm not talking about the minor type of differences that occur because of wind to other targets like drop turners, but major differences in RPM just by setting a different plate at the top, or by winding the rope a little differently. 2. The main thing that bothers me is that most shooters do not have access to these props to practice. I think it was mentioned above that some clubs have bought them and some of their members get to play with them while others never see them except at a major. Most other types of targets can be simulated relatively easily by common substitutes (pie plate for popper), but there is nothing like a windmill or a star unless you have one. All that said, I would still vote to use them, but I would be dead sure they were set the same every time and I'd even set them up on a practice range to let everyone get the feel of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 (edited) I'm sure it was mentioned earlier in this thread, and we do the same thing........paint a stripe on backside of each individual plate with a different/unique color and splash that color over onto the arm that holds that plate. Match the colors during reset. Seems fair for everyone that shoots it. Edited March 12, 2006 by ima45dv8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Gadgets are just that, gadgets. I can feel the tension from new shooters when there is a stage with a texas star in it. For most we have figured it out to the pont that unless we add to (i.e. no-shoots, ports, or what have you) then they are more of a pain to setup than to shoot. Then you have guys like me who have access to one and practiced probably 20+ runs on it yesterday. 10-12 yrds, hands relaxed, whats a good time to clean it in? I had an insane run on it yesterday that when you do the math it sounds more reasonable than it actually was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Usually I clean the star pretty good and once in a while it cleans me. That's why I like it. Saturday there was a stage with the star inside a doorway with no-shoots lined up and down each side of the door. The only plates visible from the shooting position prior to engagement were 12 oclock, 2 oclock, and 5 oclock. I cleaned it 5 for 5 pretty quick (Limited). I see it as a learning/humbling prop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Then you have guys like me who have access to one and practiced probably 20+ runs on it yesterday. 10-12 yrds, hands relaxed, whats a good time to clean it in? I had an insane run on it yesterday that when you do the math it sounds more reasonable than it actually was. I'll take anything under 3 in a match. 2.5 is a great time for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtr Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 I happened to shoot in a squad with Ara yesterday, I can't count the number of times someone asked him if he had any bubblegum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 I have to say it was somewhat luck because I could not recreate it. A few in the 2.5 to 2.8 range but nothing like that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Precision Designs Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 I have to say it was somewhat luck because I could not recreate it. A few in the 2.5 to 2.8 range but nothing like that one. (Slight thread drift, but I must chime it in!) Paul W ... what's going on with your Avatar? Looks like it is gaining weight. Or is this supposed to indicate your moving into the Heavyweight circles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Not sure, I had changed it and it looks like it changed back.....maybe I made a boo-boo? I'd say I look like a chipmunk!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegot38 Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Usually I clean the star pretty good and once in a while it cleans me. That's why I like it. Saturday there was a stage with the star inside a doorway with no-shoots lined up and down each side of the door. The only plates visible from the shooting position prior to engagement were 12 oclock, 2 oclock, and 5 oclock. I cleaned it 5 for 5 pretty quick (Limited). I see it as a learning/humbling prop. Where can our club buy a Texas Star?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 (edited) Usually I clean the star pretty good and once in a while it cleans me. That's why I like it. Saturday there was a stage with the star inside a doorway with no-shoots lined up and down each side of the door. The only plates visible from the shooting position prior to engagement were 12 oclock, 2 oclock, and 5 oclock. I cleaned it 5 for 5 pretty quick (Limited). I see it as a learning/humbling prop. Where can our club buy a Texas Star?? TERRY ASHTON 9862 RUNION RD. SAN ANGELO, TEXAS 76905 (915) 655-2809 e-mail – c8scrakr@airmail.net I took out a lot of stuff from this post because it is dated. Terry hangs out here but I am not sure what his handle is. The address was correct when I picked up a star last year. Don't know about the e-mail opr phone #. Don't bother with any other star at any price. Terry makes the best, the standard by which all others are measured. David C Edited March 20, 2006 by geezer-lock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 This was current as of 4/17/05. Terry Ashton 9862 Runion Rd. San Angelo Tx 76905 (325)655-2809 texasstartarget@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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