Classification of "F" shooters in USPSA

[38superman]

As near as I can tell from looking at the individual stage results, I ended up either 2nd, 3rd or 4th in my class C/Ltd division. <sigh> First was clearly won by a large margin by a gentleman from Venezuela, Noe Leon.

Steve,

Don't be too hard on yourself amigo.

It looks to me like you took second "C" Limited in a major match.

If this is your first major you did very well.

As for the gentleman from Venezuela, he has shown up at this match for the last several years and always wins C limited by a wide margin. He usually shoots an A score.

I don't know how things work in Venezuela but he hasn't posted a classifier in over 5 years.

If this guy is a C class shooter I'll eat my tungsten guide rod.

Your future looks pretty bright to me. Go forth and conquer.

Tls

[boo radley]

Steve,

Don't be too hard on yourself amigo.

It looks to me like you took second "C" Limited in a major match.

If this is your first major you did very well.

As for the gentleman from Venezuela, he has shown up at this match for the last several years and always wins C limited by a wide margin. He usually shoots an A score.

I don't know how things work in Venezuela but he hasn't posted a classifier in over 5 years.

If this guy is a C class shooter I'll eat my tungsten guide rod.

Your future looks pretty bright to me. Go forth and conquer.

Tls

TLS, you are too kind, and thank you. I'm 40 years old, started shooting IPSC almost exactly one year ago, and I sure love this sport, is all I know. I guess this is really my 2nd major; I shot the NC Sectional this past Fall. I've been practicing, since.

In fact, I'm *not* down on myself in the least, and quite frankly am in grave danger of having my wife poke my swollen head.

After a truly horrendous start, I'm incredibly pleased from that point on, I shot as well as I could for the rest of the match. That, I'm really proud of.

As far as the other deal, I simply hope it gets changed for next year's match. I know the classification system is disliked by many, but I really like it, and think it's good for the sport.

[Bigbadaboom]

A lot of the foreign shooters are under classified.

understatement

[AikiDale]

Since foreign competitors may be individual members of USPSA and not have a USPSA club I would not expect a foreign competitor's classification to be accurate. Sandbagging may be the object, but I'd prefer to think it simply a matter of logistics.

Edited February 22, 2006 by AikiDale

[dirtypool40]

Since foriegn competitors may be individual members of USPSA and not have a USPSA club I would not expect a foriegn competitor's classification to be accurate. Sandbagging may be the object, but I'd prefer to think it simply a matter of logistics.

Having attained spiritual creaminess through Aikido, you are bound to try and find the best in human nature. That being said, prefer what you like, it’s all about the prize table, and now STI contingency. You think <name withheld> is really an “M” not a GM? But if he beats all us lowly M’s, like uh, every time, then he can take home top M prizes, trophies and contingency bucks at every match. (Yes, I have one shooter I mind, who wasn’t there this time, but it applies to about a dozen or so that are deliberately under-classed and work hard at staying that way).

I’m just saying that IF someone were prize motivated, it would make for an interesting way to look at things.

Interesting, yes, provocative even. Hmmmm.

[AikiDale]

Oh I am quite sure there are those who sandbag to earn petty prizes. And I do give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove their perfidity. I would also think the following from the USPSA rule book could and should be applied to repeat offenders:

Your performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to

help establish classification. Placement in a major event with a score above your

assigned class percentage may result in your being promoted to a higher class,

even if your current average is lower. Winning first or second in class at an Area

Championship or Major Tournament AND shooting into the next higher class will

result in promotion (except to Grand Master); winning High Overall in an Area

Championship will promote you to Grand Master class.

Even though Frank lists the Florida Open as a level I event, it has certainly proved to be a larger match, with plenty of GM shooters to justify upgrading the status of anyone who wins their class and shoots well into a higher class.

This was my first Florida Open. If there were shooters there who competed in the same class they won last year, and won again, they should be upgraded. But only to recognize their achievement...

[Jon Merricks]

Frank does not send the results in (other than to be posted) so the %'s will not count, or at least that's they way it was done in the past.

As far as Open goes when you have Eric shooting better than ever %'s really will not matter.

[Radical Precision Designs]

When I went in for registration early Saturday morning, a surprise was waiting for me. Contrary to the classification listed in my latest USPSA Card, the Registrar had a long list of "newly updated" classifications from USPSA Headquarters. My name appeared with a higher classification than the one listed in my card. This is understandable as I had just shot eight classifiers in the preceding two weeks and the results had been recorded promptly by Headquarters. So, Frank has been doing what he can to assure "current" classifications are in place prior to the Match. If a shooter fails to "shoot" classifiers, or convenientlys has "failures" during them ... that is something we all (unfortunately) have to contend with. Then there are those shooters that indeed are underclassified because they did not normally compete in those divisions. The USPSA, in their "infinite wisdom" has chosen to classify all shooters to the inmediate lower class than their highest classified division, once any scores are received to indicate a shooter's participation in that division, even if no classifiers have been turned in. This seems fair enough. You see, prior to those eight classifiers I had just shot (that got me properly classified) I had never shot any classifiers in that division, but was classified higher in a different division. Other variances, unfortunately, may also apply.

As Jon Merricks posted: when Eric Grauffel shoots in open, the percentages will get skewed. And, remember that we had numerous top GM's in attendance, including Todd Jarret in Limited. In a match such as this, with so many "luminaries" in attendance, I consider myself very lucky to have "also" participated, and to he*l with the scoring. It was an experience that I will cherish for a long time.

Edited February 22, 2006 by Radical Precision Designs

[Al Stewart JM]

It's too bad the foreign classification issue comes up, but I have to add to this. By the way, it was good to meet Radical and other BE'ers at the match, although I could not attend the Saturday night out (She Who Must Be Obeyed had other plans.....)

Fact is, the same individual (A42772 Noe Leon) has won "C"-Limited at the Florida Open for the last 3 years now, in a field that includes several GM's, and on each occasion by a considerable margin above the next placed "C" shooter. His classification is over 5 years old, established in Dec-2000. A detective might be inclined to call these "clues".....

We had a similar issue with some of our own shooters on the IPSC Jamaica team, which was simply rectified by a written request to the USPSA to advance the affected shooters in class.

While Noe may not intend to be under-classified, he can do the "write" thing to solve the problem, requesting a promotion to "B" class.

Edited February 22, 2006 by Al Stewart JM

[AikiDale]

Since I was 81 shooters behind Todd I guess I just did not count Leon as one of the competitors I needed to worry about. My sights are on the top of the list, which leaves me little enough time to worry about me.

[spook]

The foreign shooters don't know or care about their classification 90% of the times, especially if they are from Europe.

IPSC started working with some kind of classification system a while back, but it doesn't seem to work as nicely as planned. I doubt there is sandbagging going on with any European shooters.

Over here you just shoot matches to win your division. There is no "winning C-class" at the European Championships or at the World Shoot for instance.

[bgary]

Over here you just shoot matches to win your division. There is no "winning C-class" at the European Championships or at the World Shoot for instance.

Nor are there prizes....

Bruce

[38superman]

For better or worse we do have a classification system and I think it works pretty well.

The vast majority of IPSC shooters will never be on a super squad.

Yet, in a major match a B or C class winner may have won out over 30 or 40 competitiors of roughly equal skill. That is an achievement that deserves recognition.

The international shooters do seem to be underclassifed from what I've seen.

I don't think this is malicious.

More likely they are in a situation where the only time they can record a classifer is when they come to the US for a match.

This results in shooters that can progress dramatically and still have a low classification on record.

The rule about getting bumped up when winning a major match does not seem to apply to anything but area matches.

It seems to me a simple rules change is the solution for this.

If an IPSC or USPSA member goes for more than three years without posting a classifer, they become unclassifed. Once they shoot 2 new classifers, their classification is restored with the new scores factored in.

Comments?

Tls

Edited February 22, 2006 by tlshores

[MasterLefty]

If an IPSC or USPSA member goes for more than three years without posting a classifer, they become unclassifed. Once they shoot 2 new classifers, their classification is restored with the new scores factored in.

I believe that we have this now, with the except of M and GM. Master and above have "protected" status, meaning even if you left for 10 years you will not lose your classification.

Kenny

[Bigbadaboom]

It is my belief that when you have prizes/money up for grabs to the winner then situations are taken advantage of.

As for me personally, I've moved past it because I'ld rather just win H.O.A. for the match and beat all those who would try to take advantage. And I will.

If I were doing this for prizes and money then I would have quit by now.

% of the top shooter! That's what I look at now.

Edited February 23, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[al503]

% of the top shooter! That's what I look at now.

a BIG +1 on that.

[Chuck Anderson]

Since Frank has gone to the random bag of stuff for the prizes I doubt there is much of an advantage to being under classed at the match. You may get a big plaque or trophy but the only other thing you're going to get is a bit of cash. It's really not worth the effort to deliberately try to sandbag.

[shred]

Over here you just shoot matches to win your division. There is no "winning C-class" at the European Championships or at the World Shoot for instance.

There is now.. IPSC has spiffy gold medals for class wins.

It looks like a President's medal but a little smaller and on a white ribbon instead of a purple one.

(Yeah, I had to go ask Vince what it was, too)

Did I mention it was for my top 'B-Open' in Panama at 80+% of Eric & 3rd OA in the match?? rarely-shoots-classifiers sandbagging goes both ways between IPSC and USPSA sometimes .

One thing IPSC does right with their system is you go up (and down) almost immediately and automatically.. no waiting around for the next monthly update cycle

[38superman]

As for me personally, I've moved past it because I'ld rather just win H.O.A. for the match and beat all those who would try to take advantage. And I will.

+1

I always go into a match with the goal of winning H.O.A.

However, after the first stage my delusions of granduer usually come face to face with reality.

Tls

Edited February 23, 2006 by tlshores

[Ron Ankeny]

I haven't shot many major matches, but it didn't take me long to figure out everyone that beat me shot better than I did, no matter what was written on their card.

[encoreman]

I'm with ya'll saying all shooters should be required to shoot classifiers every 2 years or lose classification. This would keep shooters of equal abilities shooting in the same class. Let's put this is the form of a vote and send IPSC the results.

[spook]

Over here you just shoot matches to win your division. There is no "winning C-class" at the European Championships or at the World Shoot for instance.

There is now.. IPSC has spiffy gold medals for class wins.

It looks like a President's medal but a little smaller and on a white ribbon instead of a purple one.

(Yeah, I had to go ask Vince what it was, too)

Did I mention it was for my top 'B-Open' in Panama at 80+% of Eric & 3rd OA in the match?? rarely-shoots-classifiers sandbagging goes both ways between IPSC and USPSA sometimes .

One thing IPSC does right with their system is you go up (and down) almost immediately and automatically.. no waiting around for the next monthly update cycle

Wow! I did not know that. So you're B-class and shooting 80+% of Eric. Yeah, that makes you a sandbagger alright

[Clay1]

Bo, just wanted to congratulate you on your good performance at the shoot. Very cool man! You'll be in B class very, very soon.

Rick

[shred]

Wow! I did not know that. So you're B-class and shooting 80+% of Eric. Yeah, that makes you a sandbagger alright

They bumped me to A the week after the match. The nerve.

One good thing they did was put 3 IPSC classifier stages in the match, plus the match itself, which means classification for everybody as soon as they upload the scores (IPSC is best 4-of-8), and a hard thing to sandbag if you do well at the match...

[eric nielsen]

Ron said the most important part already. The scores always come out top to bottom by performance.

Back in 2001 I looked at the classifiers of some of the South American contingents and what I saw from 2 different nations was an entire club of shooters doing a "special classifier match" of 4 stages, all on the same day. I think they were trying their best to get classified under the USPSA rules, they went to the effort of getting the club manual, the sheets, setting up four stages, paying the fees, etc.

The *thing* about that is, and this is true of plenty of USA shooters who start in C class & get stuck for a while, is that one of those first four is often a real clunker. As in, gun would not feed ammo into the chamber for 30-60 seconds, as onlookers all cringe. Some people end up with 2 bad ones out of four. I often tell new shooters that they can call Sedro and ask that they wait until 5 or 6 scores come in, then average the best four. Tell them that your gun jammed, for instance, they will work with you.

Back to the foreign clubs, it has to be difficult to try to get everyone in a travelling group to do more than the required 4 classifiers. And you never know if the 1-2 tank jobs out of 4 stages is due to baggin' it or due to inexperience/disaster-factor. One guy that I remember in particular had stages go about like this:

78%

83%

55%

8%

Average 56%, C class.

It happens all the time, that's our system as it stands now. Pretty good but not perfect. The above shooter may have had the feed-jam-from-hell followed by 2 good runs followed by a 6-reload-6 where he fumbled & dropped the mag & had to go for a 2nd. That happens too, we saw MM do that at an Area match that he WON.

My $.02