My Concerns About Single Stack Division (part2)

[cliffy109]

This is part 2 of my concerns about the new provisional Single Stack division. This one has to do with classification. This may be more of a plea for information than a gripe, but unless/until I get better information, its a gripe.

Over the past year, I think I have shot about 6 or 7 club level USPSA matches. It wasn't until December that I decided to get a membership and do this right. I knew about the new provisional division and wanted to get in on the fun. I've been shooting IDPA CDP for a few years now and this seemed like a good way to transition into another sport. In January, our club had an all classifier match and I shot the required 4 stages under Limited-10 to get my C class status.

Last week, I shot under the new SS division. It was then that I discovered that none of my classifier scores are going to have any meaning. These scores don't get reported under my L10 scores and I'm not sure if they will ever count towards anything. That means I am stuck at C class for the foreseeable future. The four stages I shot in January are the only ones that count for anything and I have no opportunity to advance.

That might not be such a big deal if I choose to view USPSA as just a casual hobby. If I don't want to be competitive and advance, that's not a big deal. However, if I want to use the classification system to evaluate my progress, I'm going to have to switch back to L10. Right now, I know that if I shoot at the top of my game, I can make a hit factor that puts me just into the B class. If I ease up a bit, I'm a solid C and if I botch something, I'm a high D. Overall, I'm a high C. I'd like to be able to look back in a few months and see if I'm improving. If I switch back to L10 for all further matches (they run 1 classifier stage per match), I can do that. If I stick with SS, I can't.

That's my concern. Has there been any thought to creating a system where classifier stages shot with SS can be scored under L10 for these purposes?

[PJONES5]

This is part 2 of my concerns about the new provisional Single Stack division. This one has to do with classification. This may be more of a plea for information than a gripe, but unless/until I get better information, its a gripe.

Over the past year, I think I have shot about 6 or 7 club level USPSA matches. It wasn't until December that I decided to get a membership and do this right. I knew about the new provisional division and wanted to get in on the fun. I've been shooting IDPA CDP for a few years now and this seemed like a good way to transition into another sport. In January, our club had an all classifier match and I shot the required 4 stages under Limited-10 to get my C class status.

Last week, I shot under the new SS division. It was then that I discovered that none of my classifier scores are going to have any meaning. These scores don't get reported under my L10 scores and I'm not sure if they will ever count towards anything. That means I am stuck at C class for the foreseeable future. The four stages I shot in January are the only ones that count for anything and I have no opportunity to advance.

That might not be such a big deal if I choose to view USPSA as just a casual hobby. If I don't want to be competitive and advance, that's not a big deal. However, if I want to use the classification system to evaluate my progress, I'm going to have to switch back to L10. Right now, I know that if I shoot at the top of my game, I can make a hit factor that puts me just into the B class. If I ease up a bit, I'm a solid C and if I botch something, I'm a high D. Overall, I'm a high C. I'd like to be able to look back in a few months and see if I'm improving. If I switch back to L10 for all further matches (they run 1 classifier stage per match), I can do that. If I stick with SS, I can't.

That's my concern. Has there been any thought to creating a system where classifier stages shot with SS can be scored under L10 for these purposes?

Why not just shoot a extra classifier for L10 each match.

pat

[Gregory_k]

"Why not just shoot a extra classifier for L10 each match."

+1

[cliffy109]

"Why not just shoot a extra classifier for L10 each match."

+1

I don't think that is as easy as it sounds. Every month, we have to sign up for a time slot. they run one squad per hour between 3:00 and 8:00. Every month, every squad if full. I'll ask them, but I doubt they would be able to accomodate this request. I guess its possible, but I'm not going to hold my breath on this.

[Alan Meek]

Cliffy,

How many matches do you plan on shooting a month in the area.

We currently have 4 USPSA matches each month in the area you are in.

My suggestion is to pick one of the local matches of the four and shoot Lim-10.

another is when ever there is a classifier match locally shoot that lim-10.

It is not the best system for classification, but I am hoping if the participation is large enough this year that the classifiers will be input properly.

Alan

[XRe]

Cliff, this is one weakness of the provisional aspect of this division. Usually, shooting a second classifier in a match is not a big deal - especially if all you're doing is switching magazines (or, even, not - just shoot w/ your SSD gear, but mark it L-10). You also have the option of shooting your SSD gear in L-10 every so often.

Unfortunately, this one isn't easy to deal with in the rules, unless the provisional division were declared permanent.

[Shooter Grrl]

The easiest fix is to circle L-10 on your classification form.

I also believe that if/when the SS Division "sticks", the classifiers you shot will be rolled into the database.

[Carlos]

At the club in question, we run into 2 small problems w/ re-shooting the classifier in L10 (but I have a possible fix):

1) We shoot at a business, not a "club". We are an affiliate USPSA "club" - but please understand that we are shooting on the clock at a cost to a corporation which runs a training center & public shooting range. Point is, we don't have the time that a typical club might have to re-shoot classifiers.

2) Area 8 policy (not a rule) frowns on re-shooting classifiers. I am aware that it is done in other areas of USPSA.

However, given the unique situation that SS shooters are in, and given my desire to encourage this new provisional division, please contact me if you are going to shoot SS at our match & I'll try to work something out for you guys.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

www.shootersparadise.com

[GeorgeInNePa]

SNIP

2) Area 8 policy (not a rule) frowns on re-shooting classifiers. I am aware that it is done in other areas of USPSA.

SNIP

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

www.shootersparadise.com

Carlos,

I'm in A8 too and I've never heard of that. When did that start?

[Ron Ankeny]

As the stats guy, I have considered simply sending the classifiers in L10 for folks at their request even though they shoot the match SS. I have been meaning to call Sedro and see if they pitch a fit.

[Gary Stevens]

Ron, I think if you do that, there will not be a record of that shooter having ever shot Single Stack. Therefore no shooter to count to determine if the division becomes permanent.

Those who are in the quest to raise their clasifications should just shoot an extra classifier in L-10 and send that in also.

Gary

[Ron Ankeny]

Thanks Gary, and you are right. Sometimes my thought processes are just a wee bit flawed.

[Carlos]

SNIP

2) Area 8 policy (not a rule) frowns on re-shooting classifiers. I am aware that it is done in other areas of USPSA.

SNIP

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

www.shootersparadise.com

Carlos,

I'm in A8 too and I've never heard of that. When did that start?

Perhaps I am mistaken & George Jones can weigh in to clear this up.

I was under the impression that:

1) In most of USPSA, a shooter can show up to a level I match, and shoot the classifier over & over, then pick their highest score to be sent to Sedro.

2) Area 8 discourages that practice & the shooter's first attempt is sent in.

Perhaps I am wrong on this point. Anyone know?

[Nik Habicht]

Douglas,

I'll weigh in with my policy at Central Jersey: No one gets unlimited cracks at the classifier. First run always counts for match score. If a shooter strongly feels that a classifer run does not accurately represent their current level of ability, and we have the time we allow them to re-shoot for classification purposes only.

In a similar vein, we allow some classifiers in a different division ---- but we don't want to be at the range all day either.......

I'm pretty certain USPSA's classification policy would trump anything an Area Director or Section Coordinator would want to do......

Bottom line: for me it comes down to customer service. If one of my shooters needs something, we try to bend over backwards to make it happen for them --- I'm certain you do too......

[Greg Jones]

Ron, I think if you do that, there will not be a record of that shooter having ever shot Single Stack. Therefore no shooter to count to determine if the division becomes permanent.

Those who are in the quest to raise their clasifications should just shoot an extra classifier in L-10 and send that in also.

Gary

Gary, this is something that I have thought about for a while now and I it appears to me that this could potentially present a challenge three years from now when determining if Single Stack is a success. Correct me if I am wrong, but the way I see it, all SS shooters that also shoot an extra classifier in L-10, or shoot SS one week, L-10 the next to raise classification, have skewed (lowered) the actual percentages of SS division participation. The SS division may achieve its goal of bringing in new shooters, raise overall participation in USPSA, and yet not reach the evaluation criteria of 10-12 percent of the total scores because the SS shooters also shot in L-10 to establish or raise classification. At the same time, the percentage of shooters in L-10 has been artificially inflated as it is unlikely that the same number of SS shooters will also shoot L-10 classifiers if they are getting a classification in SS, but that's a topic for another discussion. Your thoughts on this?

[pskys2]

Shooting a Classifier over/over is called Grandbagging (if you're successful) doesn't hurt anything just inflates you classification. Though if you put pressure on yourself to do it better/higher, it could be thought of as Big Match Practice. It does make it harder to win your division at money matches though.

Some clubs won't allow a reshoot on a classifier, time constraints. I like to be able to occassionally shoot another gun on a classifier. But, then again some clubs won't do it.

Try just cherry picking the matches. If they're shooting a classifier, shoot L10 (or if you feel particularly on). If not stick with SS. As long as you're using the same gear the progress will be applicable. You may be able to pick up a few % points with race gear and 10 rd mags, but if it's not what you are interested in, don't.

You've brought out the one glaring fault in a provisional division, that may well be popular. That's why they take your Highest Classification, but if you don't shoot anything else but SS after getting classified, there's the problem.

My guess is USPSA will either act quicker, or do something to alleviate the problem. Or there will be some complaints about sandbagging at the money matches/championships.

If I was to bet, I'd bet that the numbers at the bigger matches will make a big impression. Regardless of local activity.

Heck, they're already up and running on a SS Championship in April.

If you Build the Course, they will come.

[richardschennberg]

I think the middle ground would be to let an unclassified USPSA member who zeros a classifier to try again, at least once, perhaps twice, time/daylight/R.O. patience permitting. Shooters who already have a classification don't really have a reason to reshoot a classifier, but I don't think it's against the rules.

[dpeters]

I think I remember reading in the rule book that all classifiers need to be sent in, not just the best score if there are reshoots involved. Which means the funds would need to be collected for every time you shot the classifier.

I don't think there are any clubs in the Western PA. Section that care if you reshoot the classifier but you must pay up.

Back on subject, I think it sucks that the single stack classifiers don't count for classification. After all, isn't the shooter that shoots single stack paying for it out of his pocket with his match fee. Do we need to give the single stack shooters a discount on there match fee? I think once the shooting season starts up and when the shooters find out that there classifiers aren't counting for classification it may sway a few people away from shooting single stack. Why not just count the single stack classifier for classification and if single stack doesn't "stick," then the classifacation that you have goes away with it.

Doug

[Gary Stevens]

Greg, I think that there will be two sets of numbers that will be looked at. One will be the participation at matches that offer the division. Obviously that will be mainly State/Sectional and National Championships. While there have been some start up issue with matches forgetting to put it on their applications, I think we will work through it. Those numbers are very obvious and easily counted. Of course this year we have an abnormal situation where the Single Stack will have it's own Nationals and that will skew the numbers in the positive direciton. I never anticipated the stand alone match when I was thinking about this.

The second set of numbers will be the total activity count sent in to USPSA for the year for the division. While those who shoot an extra classifier in L-10 to push their classification a bit will add a few numbers to L-10, I think that in the big picture the numbers will be relatively small.

In addition to this I am working on a possible policy adjustment to allow HQ to "administratively" adjust Single Stack classificaitons upward to reflect an abnormal situation where a shooter is clearly shooting above their given classification. This will help address the sandbagging issue of the shooter who is abusing the rather unique situation we are working through with the provisional division.

Doug, while I agree with you that it "sucks", the alternative I had to face was not having the division at all. To my way of thinking, and a few others, that also would "suck". Given the the choice I would rather have the division for this test period than not have it.

Gary

[iweiny]

I appologize in advance if I offend anyone with my comments but it just so happens that a recent event took place and I have to weight in.

We have a new shooter who has been shooting SS. I encouraged him to show up to a special classifier match to "get classified"... I did not realize his SS scores would not count. So now he payed for all these classifiers and USPSA membership and does not have his classification.

I feel real bad having encouraged him to show up for a special classifier and then have this happen. Personally I was going to shoot SS this whole quarter at one of our clubs but since I found out they would not count I have decided to shoot L10 for those matches.

I like SS and view it as a real challenge. Since they are local matches I might shoot them with the 8rd mags. But this will not allow USPSA to have an accurate idea of who is really participating...

Ira

[Jake Di Vita]

Well there are a few easier ways you can do it.

The best way in my mind is to simply record the date and classifier that you shot, then record your points and your time. Keep a database and check back for progress monthly. Also, you could use a classifier percentage calculator (or find out the hit factors yourself) and see exactly what percentage you would shoot on every classifier.

If the progress you are judging is only moving up in class you are pretty much out of luck unless you shoot an extra classifier. However I don't think judging your progress based on what class you are in is a great indicator of your skill.

[Crusher]

I don't think judging your progress based on what class you are in is a great indicator of your skill.

Nope "progress is chowing down on those above you, one at a time. Line em up......knock em down."

[dpeters]

Doug, while I agree with you that it "sucks", the alternative I had to face was not having the division at all. To my way of thinking, and a few others, that also would "suck". Given the the choice I would rather have the division for this test period than not have it.

Gary

Gary, I forgot to mention, Thank you for all of your hard work putting Single Stack Division together. I feel that it is a good move for our sport.

Doug

[Merlin Orr]

Well, then - How about an "unofficial" entry into the classifier calculator that Flex turned us on to with classifier hit factors based in some manner off the L10 hit factors for all the classifiers? There are enough people posting on this Forum to get a pretty good database going, me thinks.

[driver8M3]

In addition to this I am working on a possible policy adjustment to allow HQ to "administratively" adjust Single Stack classificaitons upward to reflect an abnormal situation where a shooter is clearly shooting above their given classification. This will help address the sandbagging issue of the shooter who is abusing the rather unique situation we are working through with the provisional division.

i'm guessing that this would be done based on match performance based at larger matches. but, why not just add SS to the classification system, perhaps at some percentage of L10 (90%?, 100%?)? if this is a 3 year experiment, that seems like a long enough time to justify it. the worst that could happen is that some might end up over or under classified (if the percentage of L10 that is chosen isnt accurate), probably only by a single step, but at least the new SS shooters have a decent way to track their progress.

when production was started, werent the classifier percentages derived based on some percentage of limited?

it looks like SS might help get new shooters to uspsa (which is a great thing)...taking their portion of the match fee that is supposed to support the classification system, and then not supporting a SS classification, doesnt seem right.

btw, i like the fact that SS class is based on the highest classification...i think the other divisions should do the same thing. almost all the skills involved in any of the divisions transfer well to the other divisions.

just my 2 cents...i dont shoot SS.