My Concerns About Single Stack Division (part1)

[XRe]

I think it does. The second half of US1.1.5.1 says "or round count limitations."

Yeah, you're right - was forgetting about this provision in 1.1.5... Sorry for the confusion Cliff.

Nonetheless... you can encourage stage design that provides points to reload. The best way to do that is get involved and help design stages. I'm sure Carlos would appreciate the help

[Ron Ankeny]

I guess I am the odd man out on this one. While I generally agree minor scoring sucks, I had my SS division gun built in .38 Super so I could shoot 10 rounds plus one. I sold the gun and went to a dot before SS went into effect, but I did shoot some L10 minor. The reason I went minor was because of the course design at neighboring clubs. The clubs here are fond of 9 rounds from each position with a lot of steel, some of it small with a target or two tossed in coming into or leaving a position. Just one bobble and I end up doing a slide lock standing reload. They also put a lot of really high round count static stuff into the mix with the justification that the targets can be engaged from other positions. In short, even with the nine round rule, the guys who are totally hung up on high round count courses of fire can end up making stages that are 8+1 hatefull.

Your concerns are valid and that's why the division is provisional. The higher ups in USPSA want all the input they can get and rest assured this forum is read by a number of guys who have some suck at HQ. That said, with good course design by a club that intends to attract and retain new shooters, the advantage should go to major PF in SS division.

[Flexmoney]

I'm with Ron. I've shot matches that run the arrays tight and the steel tough. Cliffy brings up a good point. Stage design can be a killer.

USPSA needs to look long and hard at going back to 8 round arrays (for a variety of reasons. That may rock the boat a bit with IPSC, but it fits our (USPSA) needs.

[cliffy109]

I think the stage design thing wouldn't even be an issue if minor had to download to 8. Limited 10 doesn't have different capactities for major and minor. Its the same in the revolver class. If minor needed the extra rounds to be competitive, they could allow minor revolvers to load and shoot 8 while leaving the majors at 6. I don't see why the SS division is unique with this capacity issue.

[Crusher]

As far as I know the SS provisional is built around the platform and the 8 rounds for major and 10 round capacity for minor is the max capacity for the standard "box" compilant magazines.

Cliffy, in the old days, early IPSC/USPSA there were BRHPs running 13/14/15 round capacity mags against the 1911s runiing 7 and 8 round mags. In the major PF vs. Minor PF/ higher capacity battle, most often (almost allways) was won by the single stack guns given equal competitor skill level.

If a guy shooting minor is out scoring a major PF competitor in the same division, regardless of the division, the guys shooting minor is most often the better skilled at the game.

[JFD]

I had a feeling the situation may have been cliffy109 watching the Limited/Open shooters tearing a stage up from a sweet spot, and trying to shoot the stage the same way. No way to do that with a SS.

My first match trying to shoot my SS Kimber in Limited found me on stage 1 with a requirement to shoot 17 rounds from Box A. Damn! Not the day to be shooting a SS in Limited Of course I had never seen them do that before and they've never done it again, so what the hell. It definitely made me decide to get a real Limited gun.

For that, I should thank them

[cliffy109]

As far as I know the SS provisional is built around the platform and the 8 rounds for major and 10 round capacity for minor is the max capacity for the standard "box" compilant magazines.

The same thing could be said of 7 round S&W and 8 round Taurus revolvers in .38/.357.

[Carlos]

I think it does. The second half of US1.1.5.1 says "or round count limitations."

Yeah, you're right - was forgetting about this provision in 1.1.5... Sorry for the confusion Cliff.

Nonetheless... you can encourage stage design that provides points to reload. The best way to do that is get involved and help design stages. I'm sure Carlos would appreciate the help

Heck YES!

Shortly after Phil & I started this club, I took over all the design duties since Phil was busy running a business & traveling, shooting, being a dad, etc. Since then, I have largely turned over design to a group of my volunteers (the so-called Shooters Paradise Design Team) & we are always interested in stage design ideas. I can't promise you your own bay (there is only one bay for all 4 stages ) or that your stage will appear 100% uneditied because the stages need to fit together & work with each other & under the time constraints. But otherwise, we welcome new ideas in stage design.

D.C. Johnson

www.shootersparadise.com

PS One design limit (of many) is that 9 rounds are hard to pull off since we will not be using the plates after last Wed.'s match (the popper excepted). 8 rounds would work though.

Edited February 17, 2006 by Carlos

[Tokarev]

If a guy shooting minor is out scoring a major PF competitor in the same division, regardless of the division, the guys shooting minor is most often the better skilled at the game.

If we look at the scores listed below, we can see that the penalties from stage one and two should offset any percieved advantage from shooting minor. The point made above by Crusher appears to hold true.

Local Match Result

February 15, 2006 SHOOTERS PARADISE

Final results for Single_Stack

Place Name USPSA Class Division PF Lady For Age Match Pts Match %

1 Troy Henley A34849 U Single Stack Minor No No 342.8183 100.00%

2 Steve Clifford TY55301 U Single Stack Major No No 260.6560 76.03%

3 Helme Ashiblie A48808 U Single Stack Major No No 249.8136 72.87%

Local Match Result

February 15, 2006 SHOOTERS PARADISE

Stage 1 Port-Zone

Place Name No. Class Division Points Penalties Time Hit Factor Stage Pts Stage %

1 Troy Henley 27 U Single Stack 90 0 14.31 6.2893 100.0000 100.00%

2 Helme Ashiblie 57 U Single Stack 93 10 18.65 4.4504 70.7615 70.76%

3 Steve Clifford 23 U Single Stack 85 30 18.57 2.9618 47.0927 47.09%

Local Match Result

February 15, 2006 SHOOTERS PARADISE

Stage 2 Pick EM Out

Place Name No. Class Division Points Penalties Time Hit Factor Stage Pts Stage %

1 Troy Henley 27 U Single Stack 98 0 16.62 5.8965 100.0000 100.00%

2 Steve Clifford 23 U Single Stack 85 10 19.07 3.9329 66.6989 66.70%

3 Helme Ashiblie 57 U Single Stack 94 30 20.06 3.1904 54.1067 54.11%

Local Match Result

February 15, 2006 SHOOTERS PARADISE

Stage 3 Raw Deal

Place Name No. Class Division Points Penalties Time Hit Factor Stage Pts Stage %

1 Steve Clifford 23 U Single Stack 48 0 8.23 5.8323 60.0000 100.00%

2 Troy Henley 27 U Single Stack 44 0 8.57 5.1342 52.8183 88.03%

3 Helme Ashiblie 57 U Single Stack 47 0 12.20 3.8525 39.6327 66.05

Local Match Result

February 15, 2006 SHOOTERS PARADISE

Stage 4 Stand up and run

Place Name No. Class Division Points Penalties Time Hit Factor Stage Pts Stage %

1 Troy Henley 27 U Single Stack 88 0 18.57 4.7388 90.0000 100.00%

2 Steve Clifford 23 U Single Stack 81 0 17.71 4.5737 86.8644 96.52%

3 Helme Ashiblie 57 U Single Stack 84 0 18.70 4.4920 85.3127 94.79%

Edited February 19, 2006 by Tokarev

[cliffy109]

If a guy shooting minor is out scoring a major PF competitor in the same division, regardless of the division, the guys shooting minor is most often the better skilled at the game.

If we look at the scores listed below, we can see that the penalties from stage one and two should offset any percieved advantage from shooting minor. The point made above by Crusher appears to hold true.

I'm not sure I see your point. Stage 1 and 2 were 20 round stages without need for movment at any point. The guy shooting minor was considerably faster than the other two of us. I do not know Mr. Henley and am not sure what is "normal" match is other than I saw that he is a B class shooter. Helmie is ranked "Expert" in IDPA with a 1911 and I'm a Sharpshooter in CDP as well but that's honestly due to a messed up Classifier and I usually will keepo pace and even beat a lot of "Expert" ranked IDPA shooters. The point is, neither of us is a slouch. I did have my rear sight fall off during the last target of "Port Zone" which accounted for the -30 penalty. I also had a problem in that my mags were not dropping free, causing perhaps a 1/2 second delay on mag changes.

Knowing that, look at the results. A B class shooter against two fairly decent, although perhaps slightly outclassed shooters. The B class shooter is shooting minor and on the two stages where capacity mattered, he cleaned our clocks. It wasn't even close. On the stages that didn't have an advantage for capacity, the game was competitive. Note how close the three of the scores are on that last stage where mine and Helmie's mag changes were done while moving from one position to another (mag change two was made while standing and Troy's only change was done while in place as well).

Again, I don't know how good of an example this is. As I stated, I was having mechanical issues (sticky mags and a loose rear sight). I don't know if Helmie was having an off night or not, but historically, he's pretty solid. This match was a VERY small sample, but if its representitive, it does show that capacity does matter and it matters quite a bit.

[XRe]

I'm not sure I see your point.

The point was - that if you'd shot the match clean, you wouldn't have gotten your clock cleaned What were the penalties you had?? Misses, no shoots, or?? I can recalc for you... - w/o the penalties, you'd have only been about 20 match points behind - those penalties alone (not counting points you would have had w/o a miss) were worth almost 20% of the match for you....

[Crusher]

Cliffy, it sounds like you had an expectation going in based on you performance/classifications against others in another game. Generally in IDPA vs USPSA classifications a IDPA master class shooter is mid B class or above in USPSA.

From the scores (posted) the pecentages based on finish look to be right given the skill level/classifications on file with USPSA.

Shoot the game long enough and you will see that the single stack division (all else being equal) will be dominated by the major PF and 8 round mag capacity, on that day a better shooter won, not his gun.

[Merlin Orr]

While this does not address stage setups in regular matches.....

Go to the USPSA Classifier section here on the Forum. Pick 10 classifiers at random.

Shoot all 10 5 or 6 times ea. in a normal manner. Calculate and score and see what happens....?

[cliffy109]

I'm not sure I see your point.

The point was - that if you'd shot the match clean, you wouldn't have gotten your clock cleaned What were the penalties you had?? Misses, no shoots, or?? I can recalc for you... - w/o the penalties, you'd have only been about 20 match points behind - those penalties alone (not counting points you would have had w/o a miss) were worth almost 20% of the match for you....

It was a miss and a hit on a no-shoot. Recaculate it without those and add 8 or 10 points and he still clobbered me (81.3% of his) and that's because of the extra time. Recalculate assuming my mags were dropping free (figure 1/2 second per change?) and we're still at 85.97% for that stage. Assume a full second delay due to the mags not dropping and take out the penalties and pretend those misses were A hits (both of those are a bit far fetched but let's assume it for the discussion) and we have a hit factor of 5.7333 or 91.15%.

A 91.15% is a difference that could be nothing more than being outclassed. I don't rule that out. However, I was under the impression that the difference in scoring between major and minor was to account for the difference in speed that should come from faster shot recovery, not from a difference in the number of magazine changes required during a stage. Am I wrong there? If that really is the case, then L10 minor shooters should be able to load 12 and Revolver shooters should be able to use 8 round Taurus .38s.

While this does not address stage setups in regular matches.....

Go to the USPSA Classifier section here on the Forum. Pick 10 classifiers at random.

Shoot all 10 5 or 6 times ea. in a normal manner. Calculate and score and see what happens....?

I agree. The Classifiers remove the capacity advantage. Note the "Raw Deal" stage is a Classifier and note the results. The intent of the Classifiers is to determine the skill of the shooter right? The stages seem purpose designed to prevent one class from doing beetter as a result of having more mag changes. Doesn't that bolster the argument?

Edited February 19, 2006 by cliffy109

[Carmoney]

Cliffy109, look at it this way--if you're certain that the capacity advantage more than offsets minor scoring, then you can procure a good reliable .38 Super 1911 along with a few 10-rd. mags and go clean up!!

I did just exactly that, trading into a Kimber .38 Super a couple months ago, because having studied this quite a bit, I remain convinced that having those two extra rounds in the mag will create a slight advantage at SOME matches I will shoot this year. Of course, I am keeping my .45s available as well, because I am also equally convinced that the major scoring will tip the scales in its favor at SOME other matches I will be shooting (including the upcoming Single Stack Classic, which will almost certainly be set up with 8+1 in mind once again).

You see, there is no answer that always applies--it's completely dependent on how they set up the match. It all depends on the round count of the stages, and where the reloads naturally fall in those stages. So having both guns, and the flexibility to shoot both well, is the ultimate answer.

(By the way, when capacity stays the same, shooting minor will ALWAYS be a disadvantage, all other factors being equal. The scoring disadvantage of shooting minor is just too stiff. I believe we will find the provisional SS rules actually come very close to putting the major/minor platforms at parity. As a serious USPSA revolver shooter, I think they should do the same thing for revolver--allow the 8 round wheelguns, but scored minor only--once again, it would become stage- and match-dependent as to which option would create a slight advantage.)

Or so it seems to me.

[Merlin Orr]

I agree. The Classifiers remove the capacity advantage. Note the "Raw Deal" stage is a Classifier and note the results. The intent of the Classifiers is to determine the skill of the shooter right? The stages seem purpose designed to prevent one class from doing beetter as a result of having more mag changes. Doesn't that bolster the argument?

Shoot the ten classifiers for a realistic sample - then continue this argument with someting other than a single flawed sample as a base. (no poor reloads etc.)

[cliffy109]

(By the way, when capacity stays the same, shooting minor will ALWAYS be a disadvantage, all other factors being equal. The scoring disadvantage of shooting minor is just too stiff. I believe we will find the provisional SS rules actually come very close to putting the major/minor platforms at parity. As a serious USPSA revolver shooter, I think they should do the same thing for revolver--allow the 8 round wheelguns, but scored minor only--once again, it would become stage- and match-dependent as to which option would create a slight advantage.)

Or so it seems to me.

Now that's a post that makes complete sense to me. The question of just how big a penalty the minor scoring is hasn't really been addressed in a direct manner like this. I had assumed that because no other division has different capacities for major and minor that the scoring difference was to handle other issues. Perhaps this was an incorrect assumption.

I'm getting it. Slowly, but I'm getting it. I may not agree with it, but I think I get it. Maybe I do need to get a .38 (or 9mm) for myself for those matches that are not 8+1 friendly.

[Carmoney]

Maybe I do need to get a .38 (or 9mm) for myself for those matches that are not 8+1 friendly.

I looked and looked at 9mm 1911s, and researched this option pretty hard. But everybody seems to agree that about the best you can hope for is 99% reliability using 10-round .38 Super mags with 9mm ammo. Nobody makes a 10-round mag for 9mm, although you hear periodic rumors about various manufacturers who are "going to release it any day now." The way I figure it, 10 rounds of 9mm just doesn't quite work in a 1911 pistol because of that tapered case design, which is why there are no 10-round 9mm single stack mags on the market.

Of course, 9-round 9mm mags are available and supposedly work fine. But then you only have 9 rounds, which would defeat the whole purpose by 50%, right?

I went for a long time without ever owning a .38 Super competition gun, but I like the cartridge so much I now own three (including one revolver). I will tell you this--a 10-round .38 Super 1911 with good sights and a nice trigger is a really nice-shooting gun!! I'm really glad I got my Kimber. I've shot it in several matches and it's done a really nice job.

[Tokarev]

(By the way, when capacity stays the same, shooting minor will ALWAYS be a disadvantage, all other factors being equal. The scoring disadvantage of shooting minor is just too stiff. I believe we will find the provisional SS rules actually come very close to putting the major/minor platforms at parity. As a serious USPSA revolver shooter, I think they should do the same thing for revolver--allow the 8 round wheelguns, but scored minor only--once again, it would become stage- and match-dependent as to which option would create a slight advantage.)

Or so it seems to me.

Now that's a post that makes complete sense to me. The question of just how big a penalty the minor scoring is hasn't really been addressed in a direct manner like this. I had assumed that because no other division has different capacities for major and minor that the scoring difference was to handle other issues. Perhaps this was an incorrect assumption.

I'm getting it. Slowly, but I'm getting it. I may not agree with it, but I think I get it. Maybe I do need to get a .38 (or 9mm) for myself for those matches that are not 8+1 friendly.

I've been shooting single stack minor these last couple of months to get practiced up for the Single Stack Nat's in Barry. Shooting 9mm in a 1911 is very fun and I can blaze pretty well with it. I can beat guys shooting the same class if I do everything correctly. A couple "C" or "D" hits and that's it. Yes, I do have an advantage in magazine capacity but I only load from slide lock if I have to--when I make a mistake or have a long way to travel between shooting boxes. It's pretty common for me to drop a mag with a round or two left on my way to another shooting box. We do this in USPSA all the time and it's a big dinger in IDPA for the same technique.

Cliffy, I'm not trying to bash you or discourage you but you're basing your desire to change the rules on one match. You need to run in a few more matches and shoot a variety of different courses and you'll see that minor is really not an advantage. I'm sure there's a happy medium between recoil, speed, and accuracy but it's much harder to find that groove and stay in it with a 9mm. Minor scoring came out in the old days to discourage .38 Super, 9mm and other "pipsqueak" rounds and Cooper and his crew did a good job at this until people stepped on the .38 Super to make major with it.

And looking at your other shooters' USPSA classifiers, the guy who beat you is a very solid "B" class shooter with a 70% average. My guess is that he'd have easily won the match with a major load and 8-rounders.

Happy shooting!

[driver8M3]

Cliffy, I'm not trying to bash you or discourage you but you're basing your desire to change the rules on one match. You need to run in a few more matches and shoot a variety of different courses and you'll see that minor is really not an advantage.

i couldnt agree more. we definitely have space issues at shooters that most other ranges/matches dont have to worry about, which sometimes leads to stages like we had last week. because the matches at shooters are so different than almost all other matches (space issues, lighting issues, etc) i go to have some fun, and get some practice in for the bigger matches. the bigger matches are where you can really measure your performance against other shooters.

also, limited does indeed have different capacity limitations for minor vs. major (though the difference is less pronounced than in SS). because maximum mag length is dictated in limited, you can jam more rounds of 9mm minor in a mag than .40 major. very few people shoot limited minor though, and you almost never see anyone at the top of limited results shooting minor (this might be different for SS because the capacity difference is more pronounced...time will tell).

[Tokarev]

I like the fact that USPSA is currently fairly free and open with the rules regarding equipment. IDPA, on the other hand, forces the shooter to use a gun that Bill Wilson finds ideal for "street" use. I'm not trashing IDPA. I shoot it and enjoy that sport also.

With the single stack division, I would like to see similar USPSA equipment rules in place. Something like, "As long as the gun fits in a box that measures HxWxD and doesn't weigh more than 41 ounces unloaded." is okay with me.

I know the rules can never be that general but I'd hate to see the SS division turn into IPSC with an IDPA gun. If we limit magazine capacity based on caliber, we're taking away from the individuality of equipment, which is what makes USPSA so much fun to shoot.

[Genghis]

Am I missing something?

The larger bullet diameter of the .45 over the 9mm/.38 Super is a huge advantage and comes into play enough to make it so.

I'm starting another thread in this Rules forum to discuss the extent of this advantage. I've always wondered how much of a difference caliber can make.

Sean

[tightloop]

the caliber difference is negligible if you shoot 90%+ A hits but as that number falls it becomes more of a factor...

[Alan Meek]

Tightloop,

Shouldn't that be 90% available target points.

If you are shooting major that would be 1-A 1-B/C for 9 pts per target.

Shooting Minor for every B/C hit you would need to shoot 2 A's.

Alan

[Irishlad]

I'm famous for asking dumb questions, but what is the actual "purpose" of having/allowing minor scoring/calibers in this division?

Is it for people with physical issues, i.e bad elbows/wrists with major power factors, fun factor, penalty for not making major, or just because?

Another poster mentioned it was done in the old days to discourage "poofy" loads, etc.

Still true?