Nroi Ruling On Vanek Trigger For Production

[Loves2Shoot]

The thing about the enhancing reliablility clause is that it is totally unenforceable. Once the mod has been made, all someone has to do is say "yeah, the gun wasn't working before this...now it is" and there is absolutely no way of proving that claim true or false.

Um' especially in Glock, they can't not work right? Just ask Flex

I think the biggest problem is that this is a game, and games have to have rules. The division was meant to be box stock gun from the sounds of it. People are prone to tweak, polish, and modify so it seems a compromise was made to allow the common modifications that are made by shooters without dumping into Limited territory (sights, trigger, guide rod.) The wording allowed other things ($130-300 triggers, internal lightening, ect.) There has to be a point you have to say no or what is the point of the division? Newbies will "think" they have to pay $1000+ for a production gun and all the mods to compete (this we know is false, Dave Sevigny prives the point well.)

If you're pissed you paid $300 for a trigger and it was never legal, then that's fine, just use it in the division it's legal. If you want to shoot production, just accept you have to use an approved trigger, they're cheap, and actually work ok with some polishing. You will also set a good example for the new guys who can't dump a $300 in a trigger in a $350-450 gun.

Just my 2 cents.

ps. Gary is right IMO if not so popular. I wasn't happy when they came out with the " eally extended" slide stop release and I rushed out and bought one and then found out it never was legal for Limited.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Flexmoney

[BlackSabbath]

now, was it legal or not?

It was not per the existing rules made prior to the ruling. If it were legal prior to the ruling then it would be legal post-ruling.

Spin it how ever you wish. The Vanek trigger has always required an external mod and since the rules state "21.5 External modifications other than sights not allowed." it has always been illegal.

Spin away.

Wow, how tall does the ladder have to be for you to get down from that horse?

Jacob once built one that would accommodate.

And YES. John isn't Jesus Christ. He can be WRONG.

How is he wrong? Does the Vanek not require an external mod? Did the rule not originally read "21.5 External modifications other than sights not allowed."? What part is he wrong about?

Simple. Ban replacement guide-rods. Ban milling slides for adjustable sights. Ban the replacement of barrles. I can see all these mods from the outside. There is no consistancy here.

Edited March 14, 2006 by BlackSabbath

[Loves2Shoot]

Simple. Ban replacement guide-rods. Ban milling slides for adjustable sights. Ban the replacement of barrles. I can see all these mods from the outside. There is no consistancy here.

Catch 22 there, then Joe Schmo can't "upgrade" his stock XXXX to the wiz bang $1500 "production model" the factory offers as he can afford it.

It is on the right track though. Maybe an approved list is on the way if thing keep heading the way they are.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[BlackSabbath]

Simple. Ban replacement guide-rods. Ban milling slides for adjustable sights. Ban the replacement of barrles. I can see all these mods from the outside. There is no consistancy here.

Catch 22 there, then Joe Schmo can't "upgrade" his stock XXXX to the wiz bang $1500 "production model" the factory offers as he can afford it.

It is on the right track though. Maybe an approved list is on the way if thing keep heading the way they are.

Yeah. I would hate to see that happen. But, we can't sit here a poor mouth about the new guy not being able to afford the class if we allow:

Hart's/Sprinco/Recoil Master Guide Rods-$80.00 to100.00

Match Barrles-$250.00 to $350.00

Bomars-$250.00 t0 $300.00

Incidentally, I shot my Glock in a match a week ago without Charlie's lower parts in, only the upper stuff...It added 1/2 pound, didn't affect my shooting, and I should have a classifier going in 100%.

Whoever might be trying to hurt Charlie, you're not. You're only adding to the Vanek legend.

Edited March 15, 2006 by BlackSabbath

[ima45dv8]

Cliff,

I can admire your loyalty to Charlie, but I've read this entire thread twice and I haven't seen any evidence of anyone trying to hurt him. Whether someone agrees or disagrees with the ruling, it was not a personal vendetta.

[RIIID]

13 pages and still we have the same problem, the rules are not being enforced at major matches. Please tell me in the history of Production when was equipment checks made on Production equipment at ALL Area matches and the Nationals.

I have shot the last three Nationals and there were no equipment checks. Lets make 2006 the year it starts. It is a huge task to know the ins and outs of every make and model. To put it down on paper would be like phone book and every year it would have to be up dated.

If equipment checks where made from day one, we would not be here today at 13 pages.

Why weren't equipment checks made in the past? A better question is who is USPSA going to send to ALL of the Area matches and the the Nationals to ENFORCE the present rules.

Rich

[tightloop]

It seems like no matter what the rules are, enforcing them is the toughest part...and the more strict the rules become the more bitching there will be

It either has to be one way or the other...super comprehensive rules to cover every contingency or hardly any rules and run what you brung.. Looks like the rule book is going to get bigger..

[BlackSabbath]

13 pages and still we have the same problem, the rules are not being enforced at major matches. Please tell me in the history of Production when was equipment checks made on Production equipment at ALL Area matches and the Nationals.

I have shot the last three Nationals and there were no equipment checks. Lets make 2006 the year it starts. It is a huge task to know the ins and outs of every make and model. To put it down on paper would be like phone book and every year it would have to be up dated.

If equipment checks where made from day one, we would not be here today at 13 pages.

Why weren't equipment checks made in the past? A better question is who is USPSA going to send to ALL of the Area matches and the the Nationals to ENFORCE the present rules.

Rich

Asolutely fantastic post Rich. Are we going to have someone at the matches that are completely up to date on ALL makes and models of Production guns AND their parts? What will be their qualifications? Will there be a Range Master that has been to a factory school for each and every gun maker? There should be if we're gonna go down this road.

By this rationale, any external hammer must be stock. Same configuration, same finish... This type of rule is not enforceable. This is a can of worms that should have never been opened.

Edited March 15, 2006 by BlackSabbath

[Loves2Shoot]

The only "real difference" between limited and production guns is minor, 10 rounds, and a mag well (and no 1911 guns, which is just dumb with the XD legal, Rich and I can put a trigger on an XD that breaks as good or better than most 1911's.)

The rest of the "restrictions" don't really matter much IMO. Just makes enforcement overly complicated and hard to enforce.

What is hard so about:

Open= Whatever the heck you want, period. I would love to see people toting around 50 round mags because they think it would give them an advantage.

Limited - (pick a #) rounds, no optics, no comps, 500 made min .40 cal major (for all the obvious reasons.)

Production rules = Any gun 10 rounds, scores minor, no mag well.

(Rich and many Glock armorers will make your gun worth $1500+ if you want so the cost thing don't hold water to me.)

L10 - (same as L with 10 rounds)

Revolver - Who cares, they are nuts anyways let them police themselves. (just joking) I have never had the need to read any of the revolver stuff so can't comment on that.

SS - (provisional class) Don't care, those guys should be allowed to shoot minor in production or major in L 10.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[eerw]

Edited March 15, 2006 by eerw

[XRe]

Whoever might be trying to hurt Charlie, you're not. You're only adding to the Vanek legend.

I hope this isn't implying that Amidon, or those who put the part up for question, are in any way trying to use the rules of the game to effect a personal vendetta against Mr. Vanek???

Edited March 15, 2006 by Flexmoney

[eerw]

What is hard so about:.....

Nothing really hard about it...the intent is clear..its the interpretation of that intent that makes things grey..

everyone could easily shoot a production gun..but we say the sights need improvement, the trigger needs to be better, its needs better grips...and on and on...

when we get caught out in the open with our interpretation..we get mad...

I push the envelope on my gun..because I like good things..hate settling for mediocre..if it gets ruled that I got to put in the heavy trigger I will..if I got to put on the sights I don't like I will..

if you don't like the interpretation..challenge it..make up guidelines that make sense and present them..get the job of making the interpretations for NROI..do something positive ....

...these are the rules at this point in time of the game..

get them changed or play by them...don't bring the rest of us down into the muck..

sorry...I just want to go shoot..I hate talking politics..its never a win..

my apologies for my lack of civilility..I edited my post

Edited March 15, 2006 by eerw

[shred]

Throw down a $10 division-protest fee. Each side (protestor and protestee) pays $10 and the gun goes to visit the gurus. Winner gets the $20.

Clever shooters will get their guns pre-approved by the gurus.

[Loves2Shoot]

Exactly way too complicated, sort of like spinning props

Simple can be better.

[XRe]

if you don't like the interpretation..challenge it..make up guidelines that make sense and present them..get the job of making the interpretations for NROI..do something positive rather than sit here and bitch....

gets old hearing the bitching...these are the rules at this point in time of the game..

get them changed or play by them...don't bring the rest of us down into the muck..

+1 to both of these points

[haras]

Revolver - Who cares, they are nuts anyways let them police themselves. (just joking) I have never had the need to read any of the revolver stuff so can't comment on that.

Be nice now or we'll go round and round (pun intended).

It sure sounds like "Production" is starting to take off like Limited did years ago. (Opps, showing my age, sorry). You guys need to just work up the ladder and get the rules changed or clarified to your liking. Once it is settled, live with it.

Most people are looking for an edge. Some find it, some don't. And no, I didn't read all the posts. I have better things to do. Have got to go rotate my cylinder now. Ya'll be good.

[BlackSabbath]

Whoever might be trying to hurt Charlie, you're not. You're only adding to the Vanek legend.

I hope this isn't implying that Amidon, or those who put the part up for question, are in any way trying to use the rules of the game to effect a personal vendetta against Mr. Vanek???

No. I don't even know if John knows Charlie. I would like to know however, WHO brought this up in the first place. AND, how the powers that be are going to reconcile the inconsistant appearence of this ruling though. How will this be enforced on ALL Production guns. That's the issue. And as stated above...

1. Sights

2. Barrels

3. Guide-rods

4. External hammers

5. External extractors

And WHO is going to ENFORCE this. They BETTER be qualified.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Flexmoney

[BlackSabbath]

What is hard so about:.....

Nothing really hard about it...the intent is clear..its the interpretation of that intent that makes things grey..

everyone could easily shoot a production gun..but we say the sights need improvement, the trigger needs to be better, its needs better grips...and on and on...

when we get caught out in the open with our interpretation..we get mad...

I push the envelope on my gun..because I like good things..hate settling for mediocre..if it gets ruled that I got to put in the heavy trigger I will..if I got to put on the sights I don't like I will..

if you don't like the interpretation..challenge it..make up guidelines that make sense and present them..get the job of making the interpretations for NROI..do something positive.

these are the rules at this point in time of the game..

get them changed or play by them...don't bring the rest of us down into the muck..

sorry...I just want to go shoot..I hate talking politics..its never a win..

I edited my post too Stuart.

Edited March 15, 2006 by BlackSabbath

[Flexmoney]

Administrator note:

I edited some post that were bringing up the World Shoot Production gun controversy. That topic has been...and remains...closed on this forum.

We already have some "non-unity", from the two camps involved there. We aren't going to use this forum to further divide people that have so much in common.

Board members read this and this what this place is for. Nobody's making you talk politics. You're free to post or not, but so are the rest of us.

Nope. No way. This forum is not the format to address the BOD. It most certainly is NOT what this place is for.

Discussion is fine as long as it remains civil. If you/anybody are looking to use this forum as a soapbox...look elsewhere.

I was really hoping to leave this thread open (as where most of the moderators), but the basic question has been covered and answered. So, please limit further posts to constructive suggestions.

[BlackSabbath]

I hope it can.

[bufit323]

Are we going to talk about banning changing of springs, or polishing internal parts?

How will we know if a part has been polished or just "broken in"?

In addition if a part has become worn and needs replacement, such as a barrel. Will we tell the shooter that since replacement barrels are illegal, he must now buy a new gun?

How will any of this be enforceable from shooter to shooter or from match to match? Will people even know themselves if their guns are legal?

When we start saying that we need a stock gun from the box, these are the questions that I begin to ask.

[Chriss Grube]

Bruce,

I know you're still out there....you keep talking about this list of approved mods, if you don't mind could you point it out to me. Looked through the rulebook several times and I can't find one.

I know this started out with the vanek trigger but it has exploded into a complete meltdown of the production rules and decisions. I might not be the smartest guy in the world but The rules in production are so poorly written and then contradicted that I have no clue what is legal and what isn't or what is going to change next week. One reply from JA has everything internal fair game for mods, then we have no external mods BUT I can externally modify and mill my slide for new sights? God help the poor new guy cause he's screwed with this situation!

[Bigbadaboom]

There doesn't have to be an expert gun Guru who knows everything about every gun at every match to examine every "Production" gun and determine if it's legal or not. What needs to be done, as the rules state;

Here's your list Chriss:

21. Allowed modifications are very limited and include the following:

21.1 No weighted attachments allowed to magazine.

21.2 Front sights may be trimmed, fiber optics inserted, adjusted and/or

have sight black applied. Sights must be of the notch and post type.

January 2004 Edition Rule Book • 97

98 • January 2004 Edition Rule Book

21.3 Replacement barrels allowed provided barrel length is same as

original factory standard. Heavy barrels and/or barrel sleeves not

allowed.

21.4 Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is

allowed.

21.5 External modifications other than sights not allowed.

21.6 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for

the approved handgun and/or the application of grip tape or rubber

sleeves is permitted. Modifications to grips, other than previously

mentioned, not allowed, such as grooves cut to reach mag release

or size reduction.

22. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements above will

be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

23. Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed. For clarification:

ALL retention features of the holster MUST be used. All holsters must fully

cover the trigger when the pistol is holstered. The front of holsters for autos

may be cut no lower than ¼-inch below the ejection port. Revolver holsters

may be cut no lower than half way down the cylinder.

The B.O.D. needs to require that every Production shooter carry a Product data sheet from the manufacturer of their firearm for the firearm they are using (These are very easy to aquire) and have a stage like the chrono stage for each match where all the firearms are inspected and if anything on the product data sheet that is not allowed per the rules doesn't jive that shooter is moved to Open division.

Also, the rule states: 21.4 Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is allowed.

I would take this as meaning "Action work" as in working on the existing action not "Action replacement with after market parts" therefore making the Vanek trigger illegal even without the external mod.

Again, there's nothing confusing about the rules it's just that there's too many out there trying to "Game" the rule book.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[driver8M3]

I would take this as meaning "Action work" as in working on the existing action not "Action replacement with after market parts" therefore making the Vanek trigger illegal even without the external mod.

Again, there's nothing confusing about the rules it's just that there's too many out there trying to "Game" the rule book.

i love this...your 2 statements above are completely contradictory.

you say there is nothing confusing about the rule book...yet your previous statement shows that your understanding of the rule book is not the same as john amidons. amidon said that moving the pivot point is illegal. since he didnt mention any of the other modifications, cant i assume he means they are legal (contrary to YOUR opinion).

look, this thread is very long...and lots of reasonable people are disagreeing about what the rules say and mean. i'm not discounting the views that are different than mine. i know almost everyone here loves uspsa, and means well. but to me, with so many different interpretations, things are not as clear as they should be. bruce admits that if he were the head of the NROI his interpretation of the rules would be different than johns. if i were head of NROI, my interpretations would be different than both of them. that indicates that we do not have a set of clearly defined, easily understood rules.

[Genghis]

There needs to be a division that's restricted to mostly "out-of-the-box" guns. If Production evolves away from this, then we'll have to invent another division to replace it. I don't know if we'd call it "Store-Bought," "Stock," "No, Really Production," or what.

The current rules could certainly be written better. The phrase "to enhance reliability" requires consideration of the intent of the competitor, which is impossible. And I'd hazard a guess that most competitors who get trigger jobs are trying to reduce trigger pull and enhance accuracy, rather than reliability.

Perhaps the rule should read something like this:

1. Production guns must use stock factory parts, and may not have any modifications except those listed below.

2. To qualify for Production division, there must be at least _____ guns of that same model produced.

3. Polishing and deburring the parts is allowed. Changing the shape or design of the parts is not allowed.

4. Replacing the stock sights (except with optical sights) is allowed.

5. Replacing parts with factory parts from the same model of gun is allowed.

I'm sure I left something out. If you want to add more mods like guide rods or barrels, add a sentence to the rule.

Even if we had an army of factory smiths at each major match, there is no way to ensure that all the parts of each gun are in compliance. Even looking for common illegal mods on each gun would be tough. We largely rely on the honor system in our sport. I've seen some extraordinary demonstrations of integrity in our sport, so I have no doubt that once a certain rule or interpretation is issued, everyone will comply with it.