Extra Heavy/stuck Trigger Pull

[third_of_five]

Hi guys,

I need some help. I have been experiancing some problems with the trigger for my 625. Tonight I was shooting a club match, and there were several instances my trigger pull would feel extra heavy and/or wouldnt budge, until i really SQUEEEEEZZZZED the trigger. To give you an example, I would load and make ready, the timer would go off and my first shot would be fine. When I went to fire my second shot, my trigger felt as if it were stuck (i have a 7lbs pull). So, naturally I pulled the trigger even harder and the trigger would give and the round went off. Same for the third, fourth, ect. I would hit the reload and everything happened again. I know it sounds like I might not be letting the trigger "reset" all the way, but trust me, I am. It was really, REALLY strange. Also, I dont know if this matters but earlier during the afternoon I was shooting my IPSC major ammo and during the match I switched to my ICORE 127pf ammo. I didn't have a single trigger problem shooting my major stuff.

Any advice you guys can give me would be greatly appreicated

Thanks

Edited January 12, 2006 by third_of_five

[Bill Sahlberg]

Check to see if your primers are properly seated by spinning the cylinder at the half cock position. Also primers too with too hot of load or oversized primer pocket may be backing out. Lastly, and if you are shooting lead file your forcing cone to keep the front of the cylinder is not dragging on lead build up. If all else fails take it to a good gunsmith :-)

[diehli]

My guess is that the primers aren't sealing in the 127PF loads and are being pushed out of the back of the case and jamming against whatever that shroud-type thingy is at the back of a round gun.

[JohnRodriguez]

are you shooting jacketed or lead bullets??? If you are shooting lead, than the major loads should be self cleaning in the cylinder gap, and the minor loads are building up. Shoot a couple of shoote with the minor loads and open the cylinder to see if there are drag marks on it. If there are than you can probably open up the cylinder gap by .001 or .002 and it should clear up the problem. Also check to see if you have a lot of end shake, you might be able to put a end shake shim and not have to cut your gap.

[D.carden]

Are you touching the cylinder release while shooting. I've had my thumb get on it a little early and locked it up ( lightened center pin spring).

Just a thought !!!

One other thing !

I recently setup a new gun and the chambers were so tight almost to the point where i had to push the moon-clip in to bottom them out in the cylinder. After a rnd or two the recoil energy moved the moon rear-ward just enough to lock-up the action not allowing me to open the cylinder much less rotate it with the trigger.

So, check to see if your moons are loose or tight when you drop them in.

Dan

Edited January 12, 2006 by D.carden

[third_of_five]

Thanks for the imput, you guys are great! As for load, I'm using jacketed bullets, bullseye powder, fed primers, and a mixed assortment of 45 acp brass that has been shot and reloaded for probably 2 years now. Upon inspection of my fired cases, the primers appear to have marks from hitting the back of the revolver (i dont know what that spot is called, but it's the spot that includes the hole for the firing pin). It looks like a perfect impression so is it possible that the primer, when the roudn is fired, actually "forms" to the back of my revolver, causing it to temporarly get stuck? and if so, does this have anything to do with me using old brass or federal primers?

Once again thanks

[diehli]

Thanks for the imput, you guys are great! As for load, I'm using jacketed bullets, bullseye powder, fed primers, and a mixed assortment of 45 acp brass that has been shot and reloaded for probably 2 years now. Upon inspection of my fired cases, the primers appear to have marks from hitting the back of the revolver (i dont know what that spot is called, but it's the spot that includes the hole for the firing pin). It looks like a perfect impression so is it possible that the primer, when the roudn is fired, actually "forms" to the back of my revolver, causing it to temporarly get stuck? and if so, does this have anything to do with me using old brass or federal primers?

Once again thanks

Woohoo!!! I win! Maybe....

How long have you been shooting your "ICORE load"? We'll call that place at the back of your revolver from where you get forming on the primer the "breechface" (that's what it's called on an auto). When you look at the breechface, do you see pitting (is it rough)? If so, then there's either too much pressure from your ICORE load, or too little, but, most definitely, the primers are backing out. The brass could be an issue, but the primers (Federal Large Pistol, I assume) are the right ones to use. If the load is too light, bumping it up a bit will cure the problem. If it's too hot, you need to find another powder.

[third_of_five]

Woohoo!!! I win! Maybe....

How long have you been shooting your "ICORE load"? We'll call that place at the back of your revolver from where you get forming on the primer the "breechface" (that's what it's called on an auto). When you look at the breechface, do you see pitting (is it rough)? If so, then there's either too much pressure from your ICORE load, or too little, but, most definitely, the primers are backing out. The brass could be an issue, but the primers (Federal Large Pistol, I assume) are the right ones to use. If the load is too light, bumping it up a bit will cure the problem. If it's too hot, you need to find another powder.

Wow, 300lb. that sounds fairly accurate as to what's happening. There are toolmarkings on the "breechface" that have engraved themselves onto each fired primer. Not major scratches, but they are noticable. I have been using that ICORE load for nearly a year. I "may" have had problems in the past, but none stick out in my mind (that were as bad as tonights match). I'd never guess that "too little" power would be responsible for the primer to back out. Any ideas why?

Edited January 12, 2006 by third_of_five

[diehli]

Woohoo!!! I win! Maybe....

How long have you been shooting your "ICORE load"? We'll call that place at the back of your revolver from where you get forming on the primer the "breechface" (that's what it's called on an auto). When you look at the breechface, do you see pitting (is it rough)? If so, then there's either too much pressure from your ICORE load, or too little, but, most definitely, the primers are backing out. The brass could be an issue, but the primers (Federal Large Pistol, I assume) are the right ones to use. If the load is too light, bumping it up a bit will cure the problem. If it's too hot, you need to find another powder.

Wow, 300lb. that sounds fairly accurate as to what's happening. There are toolmarkings on the "breechface" that have engraved themselves onto each fired primer. Not major scratches, but they are noticable. I have been using that ICORE load for nearly a year. I "may" have had problems in the past, but none stick out in my mind (that were as bad as tonights match). I'd never guess that "too little" power would be responsible for the primer to back out. Any ideas why?

Well, since you've been using that load for a while, it's starting to sound more like loose primer pockets play some role in the problem.

As far as why low pressure might cause the problem, think of the forces involved in firing a gun. The whole reason that it works is that pressure builds up and is released when, if it works right, the bullet moves. Primers are press fit and shouldn't go anywhere if things are all working right (brass is in good shape, it's not overloaded, etc.). Some of the initial pressure due to the compression explosion of the primer material or the first ignition of powder causes the primer cup to expand in the case's primer pocket, creating a seal so that the flame front moves into the case body and ignites the majority of the powder.

With the faster, high(er) pressure powder you're likely using with heavy bullets for the ICORE load, the powder's igniting before a seal can be formed, so the forces on the primer aren't making the primer cup expand, but instead move out of the back of the pocket. My guess would be is that if you continued firing the load you have with the brass you have, you'd start to notice a ring where the escaping flame has eroded the breechface in a shape matching that of the primer/case ring (then again, you might not... don't revolvers have a firing pin bushing-thing-a-ma-jig?). If this brass has been used for major loads and thereby expanded and subsequently not resized at the case head, you likely have loose primer pockets that exhibit these problems with the light loads.

[diehli]

For extra reading: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...echface+erosion

[R112mercer]

Not to be a Smith & Wesson snob but the area to the rear of the cylinder that has the hole for the firing pin is called the Recoil Plate. Just FYI .

[AzShooter]

Sound to me more like powder flakes under the star. Trigger works fine, then gets extremely hard. Especially with light load where all the powder is not getting burned.

Clean under the star. Depending on the powder some leave an aweful lot of junk in the cylinder that can get under the star during reloading.

[Bubber]

Third of five, It could be unburnt powder as Azshooter suggest, however I would side with 300lb. the primer backs out when fired and then the case is pushed back against the reboound sheild/ breachface/ and the primer is pushed back into plase as the case moves if there is some play in the distance between the rebound sheild and the case head. With a major power factor it will flatten the primer. And if the load is to light the primer will still be rounded and thus drag. Just a theory..

[S.C. Shooter]

Had a similar problem with a M626 few years back. Initially thought it might be a reloading problem but all loads worked fine in other, similar S&W revolvers. It would "bind/drag" on occasion but it would do it with both minor and major loads. Tried a couple of local gunsmiths but no luck. Sent a letter stating the problem and the gun to S&W. Problem solved.....Good Luck

[underlug]

Had a similar problem with a M626 few years back. Initially thought it might be a reloading problem but all loads worked fine in other, similar S&W revolvers. It would "bind/drag" on occasion but it would do it with both minor and major loads. Tried a couple of local gunsmiths but no luck. Sent a letter stating the problem and the gun to S&W. Problem solved.....Good Luck

And they did what? Bubber, get your gun yet?

Edited January 13, 2006 by underlug

[third_of_five]

Thanks guys I swear, with the knowledge you guys have about revolvers, someone should start a "revolver troubleshooting site" and charge money The ejector star DOES sound like it would be an issue, but I clean the whole thing regularly. After looking at my spent brass and the recoil plate (thanks R112mercer), it appears that not only do the primer flatten out, but also "fireforms" to the recoil plate. There are a couple (3) evenly spaced toolmarks on the recoil plate, and those are being etched into the primers. Also, all of my reloads are below flush so I compared unfired rounds to my fired brass and you can see the primers (of the fired brass) are leveled with the case head. I am currently using "abused-stepchild" 45 brass that has been shot and reloaded going on nearly 2 years. I think what I will do is load some rounds using new never-fired brass and see if i get that same binding effect. It may be those primer pockets after all.

[Bill Nesbitt]

I've found that Federal primers deform more than others when fired.

Also Federal primers in the newer S&Ws seem to deform differently than in other guns. They leave a concave surface ln the primer after firing. I had bought some fired brass a while back. Some of the brass had these funny looking concave primers in the brass. I thought it had been fired in a cheap gun - - - - - - - - - - - - - Until I got my Performance Center 686 and it did the same thing. Use some other brand of brass and it looks "normal".

There is some sort of rounded insert in the recoil shield that surrounds the firing pin that seems to cause this. My new 625 has the same thing.

I don't know if this is part of your problem or not.

[AustinMike]

When I first got my 625, I had issues similar to what you describe. I was using ratty brass from my 1911 (which seems to eat any brass I stuff in it.) I bought some brand new Starline brass and the problem went away. The 625 has it's own reserved brass now and the 1911 gets range scraps. I run with Federal primers and seat 'em deep.

[DougCarden]

When I was competing heavily in Bowling Pins with my 625 I had a lot of "OHmygodhowmanytimeshaveIreloaded this.45brass" gifted to me and having read all the gunrags at the time stating that all my depraved brass that was too ratty to chamber in my 1911 should be shot in my 625. I too had a lot of nice trigger, nice trigger, HOLY CRAP heavy trigger, then back to ok trigger. Turns out it was the ratty brass with the rim battered enough that you could see the rub marks from the "Recoil Shield" and they all still shot in my 1911......go figure

Now I do the same with auto brass as the Revo brass. If it goes to a match I case gauge it, and if it will fit in the gauge then it will more than likely spin when in the moon. You will also be able to catch this by dropping your full moons into your cylinder prior to a match and closing the cylinder. If it goes smoothly you should be OK, but if not, then rotate the cylinder to isolate the problem case and reject it. I dont know how many times I would have to pop one or two rounds out of a moon to find the bad case and chuck it. Let me tell you, it did make the difference when the money was on the line at a match.

Hope some of this helps, I didnt have the benefit of the forum when I was learning to run the REVO! DougC

[haras]

An interesting side bar. I once fired primers in my 610 without powder or bullets. The results were the same as yours from what sounds like wo' out brass. The only difference is that the primers stayed pushed back.

This happened because there had not been a secondary explosion and the case didn't shove back against the breech face...uhh...Recoil plate.

I think they have steered you correctly, get some new brass and keep it seperate. The beauty of a moon clip gun is it's easy to find your brass. Love 'em

Edited January 14, 2006 by haras

[Carmoney]

I'll part company with some of you fellas on this one. I don't believe that revolvers need special brass, and in fact every match I shot last year I shot with ratty old mixed brass that's been reloaded over and over and over and over--I'm sure some of it is from that case of Federal ball ammo I bought at Riley's in Hooksett, NH almost 20 years ago. Some of 'em I can't even read the headstamp. My policy is to throw them away when the cracks approach 1/4". I'm not kidding.

Now--that said--after loading all my moonclips before a match, I'll make sure they all drop nicely into the cylinder--I don't do the spin-test, in fact I don't even close the gun anymore because I can tell right away if everything's straight by the way it falls in against the cylinder face. This checks the moonclips for straightness and the ammo for bulges. All of my primers are double-seated below flush, so I know I won't have a high primer scraping along slowing things down (and causing a misfire).

Revolvers should not be picky eaters.

Or so it seems to me.

Mike