removing your belt with the firearm still holstered

[Diver123]

SO in USPSA competition we have rule 5.2.1.2 that says DQ if you remove your holster or equipment belt with the handgun still in it. I dont see anything like that in the steel challenge rules. Am I missing something? It seams it would be allowed. I dont shoot steel so not familiar with those rules. Any help would be great. Thanks

[GKB]

The best practice I've seen is competitors that bag a pistol even through they have a holster for it.  (This also gets into the conversation about shooting a rimfire pistol and a centerfire pistol in the same match which you need to bag both.)

 

However, I agree that the rules in 10.2 (Disqualifications, General Principles) would not apply as long as you were handling the belt and did not remove the pistol from the holster.  You would need to go to a Safe Area if you were to remove the pistol from the holster.

[motosapiens]

many (perhaps most) steel challenge RO's are also uspsa RO's, so whether or not you can do it, I wouldn't, just to avoid headache and bad habits. 

 

When I go to the safe area to take off my undershirt, for example, i take my mags out before I enter the safe area, even tho I know I can handle the belt with the mags still in place. In the safe area I take the gun off, then remove the belt, then deal with my wardrobe. Least chance of something going wrong or someone else annoying me.

[RangerTrace]

I won't mention any names, but I watched an IDPA National Champ (lady) go into a porta potty with her gunbelt/pistol on.  I'm fairly certain she handled her gun in there..........

[Diver123]

I agree I wouldn't do it to avoid any bad habits forming but if someone does it I don't see a rule prohibiting it. That is the bigger issue. 

[zzt]

2 hours ago, Diver123 said:

I agree I wouldn't do it to avoid any bad habits forming but if someone does it I don't see a rule prohibiting it. That is the bigger issue. 

 

If you do that and the RO is a USPSA RO without an SCSA Cert, there is going to be a problem.  The RO won't know the rule (or lack thereof) and DQ you.  Then the RM has to get involved.  The DQ may stick.  It all depends on how well the RM knows SCSA rules.

 

I've seen some weird things.  At my first SCSA match, a LIII championship, I was told by both ROs on the stage I had to drop the hammer on my 22 pistol if I wanted to put it in my holster.  I told them no, that was not the case.  They insisted and the MD backed them up.  I had to get an expert with a rule book to straighten the MD out.

 

At an LII match a shooter on the squad in front of me was DQ'd for breaking 180.  He was holding his PCC muzzle up but tilted back about 5 degrees.  The RM agreed.  I went over and said the rule book stated "reasonably vertical".  I'm allowed to do that in SCSA but not in USPSA.  The DQ stuck.

 

At an LIII match at OL, a permanently disabled shooter came up and said he could not move quickly, so he was going to shoot from one box.  I said OKAY, I'll assess the penalties.  He said no.  The MD said he could shoot from any box without penalty.    I went over to the MD for clarification.  He said yes, if the handicap was permanent, no penalty.  If it was temporary, like a broken leg in a cast, the penalty would apply.  I just shook my head and left.  BTW, these were all at East Coast Steel Challenge matches and Championships.  I don't shoot them anymore.

[bigdawgbeav]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

 

If you do that and the RO is a USPSA RO without an SCSA Cert, there is going to be a problem.  The RO won't know the rule (or lack thereof) and DQ you.  Then the RM has to get involved.  The DQ may stick.  It all depends on how well the RM knows SCSA rules.

 

I've seen some weird things.  At my first SCSA match, a LIII championship, I was told by both ROs on the stage I had to drop the hammer on my 22 pistol if I wanted to put it in my holster.  I told them no, that was not the case.  They insisted and the MD backed them up.  I had to get an expert with a rule book to straighten the MD out.

 

At an LII match a shooter on the squad in front of me was DQ'd for breaking 180.  He was holding his PCC muzzle up but tilted back about 5 degrees.  The RM agreed.  I went over and said the rule book stated "reasonably vertical".  I'm allowed to do that in SCSA but not in USPSA.  The DQ stuck.

 

At an LIII match at OL, a permanently disabled shooter came up and said he could not move quickly, so he was going to shoot from one box.  I said OKAY, I'll assess the penalties.  He said no.  The MD said he could shoot from any box without penalty.    I went over to the MD for clarification.  He said yes, if the handicap was permanent, no penalty.  If it was temporary, like a broken leg in a cast, the penalty would apply.  I just shook my head and left.  BTW, these were all at East Coast Steel Challenge matches and Championships.  I don't shoot them anymore.

All of these were ECSC?  Obviously happened years ago and not recently.  Rest assured, the new RM does a better job.  The old management is out and new management is working hard to restore a good reputation. 

 

An unfortunate by-product is that getting RO help is difficult, so you sometimes have to take what you can get.  This results in non-certified ROs running the stages.  There is no rule stating that ROs need to hold an NROI certification.  

Edited December 27, 2023 by bigdawgbeav

[AR_James]

6 hours ago, zzt said:

At an LII match a shooter on the squad in front of me was DQ'd for breaking 180.  He was holding his PCC muzzle up but tilted back about 5 degrees.  The RM agreed.  I went over and said the rule book stated "reasonably vertical".  I'm allowed to do that in SCSA but not in USPSA.  The DQ stuck.

 

Was the shooter in the shooting box?  If so, before or after the "Make Ready"?

 

I'll add one of mine for fun: Level 2 match - Range is clear command given - Current shooter steps out of the box - I stepped into the box to set my case and mags on the table - RO stopped me and told me I wasn't allowed to be in the box until he OK'ed it. 

[shred]

6 hours ago, zzt said:

 

If you do that and the RO is a USPSA RO without an SCSA Cert, there is going to be a problem.  The RO won't know the rule (or lack thereof) and DQ you.  Then the RM has to get involved.  The DQ may stick.  It all depends on how well the RM knows SCSA rules.

 

They could call it under 2.4.1.1 "casing outside a safety area."

 

In the old days before it was spelled out in USPSA 5.2.1.2 there were holsters that you could put a bag over and then pop the holster body off your belt and people would claim that wasn't "unsafe gun handling" because they weren't touching the pistol. 

 

The counter argument is "so I can put on an oven mitt and go run around holding my pistol looking through the sights because I'm not touching it?".  They put in 5.2.1.2 to put an end to the bitching completely, but pretty clearly actual touching is not always required by NROI to count as 'handling'.

 

 

[zzt]

10 hours ago, AR_James said:

Was the shooter in the shooting box?  If so, before or after the "Make Ready"?

 

On deck.  Rule 8.1.7 applies.

 

10 hours ago, shred said:

They could call it under 2.4.1.1 "casing outside a safety area."

 

In the old days before it was spelled out in USPSA 5.2.1.2

 

Those rules are not present in the SCSA rule book.

[shred]

45 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Those rules are not present in the SCSA rule book.

Yeah they are, look again:

 

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated 
below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and 
the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match 
disqualification (see Rules 10.3.1 & 10.3.10). 

2.4.1.1 Casing, uncasing, and holstering unloaded firearms.

[zzt]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Yeah they are, look again:

 

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated 
below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and 
the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match 
disqualification (see Rules 10.3.1 & 10.3.10). 

2.4.1.1 Casing, uncasing, and holstering unloaded firearms.

 

Those rules say permitted, not must use.  There is no SCSA rule equivalent to USPSA 5.1.2.1.  There should be.  The MD where I mostly shoot SCSA says "show me where in the rule book it is not allowed".  He is right.  George Jones says the same thing.  "If it's not in the rule book, it doesn't exist".

[shred]

"Permitted" means "you can do these things in there should you desire" it does not mean "you can also do them elsewhere too if you want", as should be obvious from the reference to 10.3.1.

 

Otherwise people could case and un-case or holster and un-holster or dry-fire or practice reloads, or any of the other things in that section all over the range???  I don't think so.   The language could be clearer but the meaning is there.

[zzt]

You are not 'handling' your gun in the OP's scenario.  There should be a rule clarifying it.  You should never have to infer.

 

Before reading this thread, I'd have DQ'd a shooter who did that.  They specifically teach that in USPSA RO class. Now it's a gray area requiring interpretation in SCSA.

[shred]

I tried to explain it up-thread.  USPSA & NROI determined a long time ago that dropping your belt, holster, pistol and all into your bag outside of a safety area was a DQ offense.

 

People still did it and got caught and whined about it, so they added in 5.1.2.1 to make it crystal-clear.   You can find the very discussions on here from 20-ish years ago when people started doing it and getting DQ'ed for it and the DQ's upheld by DNROI before 5.1.2.1 ever came into the USPSA rules.

 

They need to add it for SCSA, but when I was RM for a Level 3 SCSA match I'd have had no problem upholding a DQ an RO issued for bagging outside of a safety area if someone did that (not that anyone did, they have more sense).  Shooter can take it to arb and/or bitch on the internets if they disagree.

 

[Diver123]

Currently a DQ is not supported in the SCSA rules. In USPSA competition rules it is completely supported by rule 5.2.1.2. So in steel challenge you have no grounds to DQ providing the gun remains in the holster the entire time. My understanding is this is being addressed and will most likely be a DQ once the new rule book comes out.

[shred]

You may disagree, but it was a a DQ in USPSA before 5.2.1.2 was added, so in my sometime-SCSA RM opinion, it's a DQ in SCSA as well. 

 

It needs to be clarified because some people don't like it, but that's how NROI has treated it for decades.  We had all the arguments 25 years ago.

 

The other reading of the rules leads to the result that it would be legal to throw a ziploc bag over your pistol, detach the holster with the pistol still in it and run around getting a sight picture on everything on the range because you "aren't touching it" and "it's still in the holster".

 

[RickT]

All of the above makes sense.  By inference the only place/condition in which you can leave your gun unattended is bagged and in either your range bag or gun cart.  Rifles/PCC need not be bagged if they are properly mounted in a cart.

[Diver123]

1 hour ago, shred said:

You may disagree, but it was a a DQ in USPSA before 5.2.1.2 was added, so in my sometime-SCSA RM opinion, it's a DQ in SCSA as well. 

 

It needs to be clarified because some people don't like it, but that's how NROI has treated it for decades.  We had all the arguments 25 years ago.

 

The other reading of the rules leads to the result that it would be legal to throw a ziploc bag over your pistol, detach the holster with the pistol still in it and run around getting a sight picture on everything on the range because you "aren't touching it" and "it's still in the holster".

 

Well Troy disagrees with you also. This is about steel challenge not any other sport.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Diver123

[Diver123]

40 minutes ago, RickT said:

All of the above makes sense.  By inference the only place/condition in which you can leave your gun unattended is bagged and in either your range bag or gun cart.  Rifles/PCC need not be bagged if they are properly mounted in a cart.

I can leave them unattended at the safe table also.